News Lions to wear traditional jumper...now reduced by the club to the 'commemorative hat-trick jumper'

[maroon and blue]

I meant that I like the threepeat jumper as a temporary jumper, not the paddlepop. Regardless, I don't think any logo should be a definitive symbol going into the future. They get outdated - that's the nature of logos. The club is the one going into the future, not the logo, the jumper, or anything else. I could care less about such things.

I like the threepeat as a temporary, but honestly, not trying to stir up, think it looks outdated.
I liked the heritage strip, but not with FFC on it for a longterm use.
I like paddlepop enough to put up with for now, but am not a huge fan of the design.
I would love a brand new design - one better than the paddlepop and the threepeat.

Just like the Union Jack, or the Stars and Stripes or the Southern Cross are irrelevent? You couldn't care less about tradition.

 

[spotthedog1]

Just like the Union Jack, or the Stars and Stripes or the Southern Cross are irrelevent? You couldn't care less about tradition.

Thank you for your kind words. I have respect for those who differ from my view. However I don't have respect for any who plan to hold the board hostage (not pointing any fingers), nor for those who can't reciprocate the slightest respect for me.

For starters, ignoring discussions regarding simplicity of design linking to a 'timeless' factor that the sideways lion simply doesn't have, and how that does apply to thinks like the Union Flag (not 'jack' - that would be an incorrect usage), I'm always intrigued by the use of tradition in arguments. Tradition is important, but should not impede progress. To me, tradition regarding the football club has to do with remembering and celebrating the accomplishments and players. I don't link it to specific logos, strips, or any other such things. To me, where something is simply a matter of design, it does not become a tradition. It becomes a design. Exhibiting these designs from time to time is great, but shouldn't be taken to overtake the essence of the football club.

So, I would like you to tell me - how do we measure tradition? Was it untraditional for the Bears to merge with Fitzroy, thus foresaking their bearish heritage? The Lion was on the jumper at the time of the merger, but from memory, it wasn't on the jumper til about 1990? Should the jersey actually be the FFC jersey? How about the plain maroon shirt and gold hose worn in the 1890s? New materials? Sorry, untraditional... If you're basing it on the 3 premierships won wearing that strip (and no, FFC never won a premiership in that strip, in fact, they never even won one as the Lions), should we embrace the AAPT logo on the strip as part of the tradition? Why not, it's a design? Maybe we should have the pre-Lions strip from when FFC won the VFL? How about - can I have a Bears heritage strip next year? Then can I apply for this to be the ongoing strip of the Brisbane Lions? I'm sorry, your answers show that you couldn't care less about tradition.

To everyone else - I don't need answers for that, and of course I'm not arguing that any of those should occur - I'm just pointing out that this fool's perspective on what makes tradition does not make it so.

 

[Fatcat08]

You both make a really good point... I guess that really is the big unknown. Its hard to know with licensing and marketing rights... everything now passes through legal before it makes it through to the drawing board so its certain theres a cost... the question would be how big. Imagine the re-branding of every poster, sign, card or letterhead that shows a player wearing the current strip alone...

Hadn't thought about that part actually, its a good point. Would be interesting to know if we did this sort of change straight away when we implemented the new one or just let it happen gradually over time. Can't remember personally. Certainly something to consider when weighing up costs. Little things like that always pop up when you change things.

 

[Ironmonger]

I don't really have a problem with the new logo. I actually quite like it. Just not on a footy strip.

Most teams seem to be moving towards more old-style designs. Things that grandma could knit. I think that's great. It makes AFL uniforms more distinctive in a crowded marketplace.

I don't get why we've gone the other way.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I meant that I like the threepeat jumper as a temporary jumper, not the paddlepop. Regardless, I don't think any logo should be a definitive symbol going into the future. They get outdated - that's the nature of logos. The club is the one going into the future, not the logo, the jumper, or anything else. I could care less about such things.

I disagree. A good logo gets left largely untouched. The Detroit Lion has been largely untouched since 1970, save for a little tinker here or there. The Yankees logo for over 100 years.There's countless other examples. Boston Celtics Yes, logos get changed, but it's usually because (a) the logo was shit or (b) some egghead decided that a change was as good as a holiday. Many times they tweaked until they hit upon something that worked.

Coming from someone who deals in aesthetics every day, the trouble I have is that, bias aside, the original lion was a great logo. It was strong, fierce, iconic and history, in that it was linked to feat of history (the 3-peat) that hadn't been seen for half a century and may not be seen for that long again.

 

[Fatcat08]

I don't really have a problem with the new logo. I actually quite like it. Just not on a footy strip.

Most teams seem to be moving towards more old-style designs. Things that grandma could knit. I think that's great. It makes AFL uniforms more distinctive in a crowded marketplace.

I don't get why we've gone the other way.

Not just in AFL either. Seems to be a trend towards the more plain and traditional guernseys in a lot of leagues all over the world, while logos for marketing material are updated on a reasonably regular basis (sometimes only subtly). Even in the USA, NFL guernseys are fairly plain in their design, despite the fact they may have very modern logos for other items and general marketing. Its almost like we've looked at the broncos and their history of constantly changing their guernsey and thought hey they seem to be popular lets do that as well.

 

[maroon and blue]

Thank you for your kind words. I have respect for those who differ from my view. However I don't have respect for any who plan to hold the board hostage (not pointing any fingers), nor for those who can't reciprocate the slightest respect for me.

For starters, ignoring discussions regarding simplicity of design linking to a 'timeless' factor that the sideways lion simply doesn't have, and how that does apply to thinks like the Union Flag (not 'jack' - that would be an incorrect usage), I'm always intrigued by the use of tradition in arguments. Tradition is important, but should not impede progress. To me, tradition regarding the football club has to do with remembering and celebrating the accomplishments and players. I don't link it to specific logos, strips, or any other such things. To me, where something is simply a matter of design, it does not become a tradition. It becomes a design. Exhibiting these designs from time to time is great, but shouldn't be taken to overtake the essence of the football club.

So, I would like you to tell me - how do we measure tradition? Was it untraditional for the Bears to merge with Fitzroy, thus foresaking their bearish heritage? The Lion was on the jumper at the time of the merger, but from memory, it wasn't on the jumper til about 1990? Should the jersey actually be the FFC jersey? How about the plain maroon shirt and gold hose worn in the 1890s? New materials? Sorry, untraditional... If you're basing it on the 3 premierships won wearing that strip (and no, FFC never won a premiership in that strip, in fact, they never even won one as the Lions), should we embrace the AAPT logo on the strip as part of the tradition? Why not, it's a design? Maybe we should have the pre-Lions strip from when FFC won the VFL? How about - can I have a Bears heritage strip next year? Then can I apply for this to be the ongoing strip of the Brisbane Lions? I'm sorry, your answers show that you couldn't care less about tradition.

To everyone else - I don't need answers for that, and of course I'm not arguing that any of those should occur - I'm just pointing out that this fool's perspective on what makes tradition does not make it so.

Speaks for itself Fitzroy supporters.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I disagree. A good logo gets left largely untouched. The Detroit Lion has been largely untouched since 1970, save for a little tinker here or there. The Yankees logo for over 100 years.There's countless other examples. Boston Celtics Yes, logos get changed, but it's usually because (a) the logo was shit or (b) some egghead decided that a change was as good as a holiday. Many times they tweaked until they hit upon something that worked.

Coming from someone who deals in aesthetics every day, the trouble I have is that, bias aside, the original lion was a great logo. It was strong, fierce, iconic and history, in that it was linked to feat of history (the 3-peat) that hadn't been seen for half a century and may not be seen for that long again.

Yep. Lock in the Dallas Cowboys too. Fourth most valuable sporting club in the world behind Man U, Real Madrid and the Yankees. That iconic blue star has been a consistent symbol since 1964.

They never felt the need to put a cute face or a cowboy hat on it, that's for sure.

While some people argue an emblem becomes dated. A classic one, like the old lion increases in value over time as emotional currency of both the success and struggles of the club become part of its legacy.

 

[notliondown]

Something interesting popped up on Twitter from Rocky last night in response to a question from Jorgo... and that was the fact that Tom had only played 1 game in the old guernsey... which got me thinking.

Theres a whole "generation" of players who have known nothing else other than the current strip... Maguire, Raines, Staker, O'brien, Harwood, Beams, Bewick, Lester, Polec, Green, Golby, Karnezis, Longer, Crisp, Zorko, Yeo, Lisle, Docherty, Maloney, Martin.... they've all only ever played in the current guensey (apart from special events).

I wonder if this means as much to them... or are other things of bigger concern to them?

 

[maroon and blue]

Something interesting popped up on Twitter from Rocky last night in response to a question from Jorgo... and that was the fact that Tom had only played 1 game in the old guernsey... which got me thinking.

Theres a whole "generation" of players who have known nothing else other than the current strip... Maguire, Raines, Staker, O'brien, Harwood, Beams, Bewick, Lester, Polec, Green, Golby, Karnezis, Longer, Crisp, Zorko, Yeo, Lisle, Docherty, Maloney, Martin.... they've all only ever played in the current guensey (apart from special events).

I wonder if this means as much to them... or are other things of bigger concern to them?

Winning and holding their position and worrying their future are probably first on their minds. But for the people that pay their salaries the jumper (not guernsy) is foremost.

 

[notliondown]

Perhaps your'e missing the point that many supporters are traditionalists and things like jumpers and colors are the core of a club. Yes we can win and lose, football is a cycle, but the one thread thru it all is tradition. Without tradition a club will lose its identity.

No, I'm not missing the point at all mate, and I know very well the importance of tradition to the diehard, glued on supporters - like us. As someone with a vested enough interest in the club to have been a member for a very long time and to come here and type away (when I should be working ) on a footy forum, I understand that notion very well. I love our past and our traditions... I was lucky that I witnessed 2 of our 3 wins in GF's first hand in that guernsey.



And to be honest, the notion that anyone who doesn't want to die on his sword over this issue, isnt a traditionalist or care about history is a crazy misguided one. Its almost insulting.

Don't mistake my posts as support or preference for one logo or guernsey over another... theyre not. My simple take on the issue is that there are options - like every issue. There maybe new traditions to be made. And new history to be forged. And not just over this. Over any and all aspects of our Club. In the bold new age world where technology, flashy lights and bright colours rule the roost, tradition is slowly being replaced, and probably to our detriment.

I'm just not prepared to issue a blanket statement over the topic or issue threats. My support for the club is bigger than any single issue. Maybe thats fool hardy, but hey, maybe thats my tradition... to stick it out through thick or thin.

The sad reality is people these days are transient. In their habits, their passions and their hates. To the kids and people who have never seen or been interested in the Lions until now, this issue is a non event. What they see now, they know as the Brisbane Lions. What every Auskick kids wears today represents the club to them... thats the Lions. Right or wrong.

I don't know what the answer is... I'm positive there isn't one that would get 100% support from both old and new supporters and members... and that's really the issue here for me. No matter the outcome this issue has created a division amongst those who support the club. And that's perhaps worse than any choice of logo.

 

[Skoob]

Something interesting popped up on Twitter from Rocky last night in response to a question from Jorgo... and that was the fact that Tom had only played 1 game in the old guernsey... which got me thinking.

Theres a whole "generation" of players who have known nothing else other than the current strip... Maguire, Raines, Staker, O'brien, Harwood, Beams, Bewick, Lester, Polec, Green, Golby, Karnezis, Longer, Crisp, Zorko, Yeo, Lisle, Docherty, Maloney, Martin.... they've all only ever played in the current guensey (apart from special events).

I wonder if this means as much to them... or are other things of bigger concern to them?

He also said it was a very special moment. The kids that are playing now had the likes of Brown, Voss, Akermanis, Power, Lappin et al as heroes growing up. Who wouldn't want to wear the Guernsey worn by their heroes?

 

[GingerGreatness]

No matter the outcome this issue has created a division amongst those who support the club. And that's perhaps worse than any choice of logo.

Agreed.

As for Rocky, who knows. While the company line has to be towed to a degree, I'd say Rocky would be one of the first to acknowledge what a jumper, with tradition, means.

 

[Ironmonger]

Yep. Lock in the Dallas Cowboys too. Fourth most valuable sporting club in the world behind Man U, Real Madrid and the Yankees. That iconic blue star has been a consistent symbol since 1964.

They never felt the need to put a cute face or a cowboy hat on it, that's for sure.

While some people argue an emblem becomes dated. A classic one, like the old lion increases in value over time as emotional currency of both the success and struggles of the club become part of its legacy.

An excellent point.

 

[spotthedog1]

I disagree. A good logo gets left largely untouched. The Detroit Lion has been largely untouched since 1970, save for a little tinker here or there. The Yankees logo for over 100 years.There's countless other examples. Boston Celtics Yes, logos get changed, but it's usually because (a) the logo was shit or (b) some egghead decided that a change was as good as a holiday. Many times they tweaked until they hit upon something that worked.

Coming from someone who deals in aesthetics every day, the trouble I have is that, bias aside, the original lion was a great logo. It was strong, fierce, iconic and history, in that it was linked to feat of history (the 3-peat) that hadn't been seen for half a century and may not be seen for that long again.

Fair enough - I can appreciate that many see the sideways lion as timeless and fierce, I'm just not one of them. I don't think there's much ferocity, and as I said in a previous post, simplicity of a design is often strongly correlated to the timeless factor. TBD's cowboys logo a perfect example - a very simple logo, and quite timeless. The sideways lion is simple, but not simplistic, so i think it can go either way, but to me, just something about the design seems quite dated. I get that that's just an opinion though, and I'm sure many will disagree.

 

[lionbear]

Also to those who believe that going back to old logos is not a good idea, see the Baltimore Orioles, Toronto Blue Jays in the MLB, both went to Uniforms with deep and proud histories that were abandoned years earlier.

 

[POBT]

I said many moons ago that I could see the jumper change making some sense from a commercial perspective.

A club like Manchester United makes fiarly regular changes to their strip. They keep the red and white combination largely intact but things do change (albeit not drastically) from year to year.

There is a decent proportion of supporters who want to wear what the players are wearing so will go out and buy a new strip whenever it is released. Plus, it allows apparel sponsors to differentiate their product from their predecessors. In short, it can make some commercial sense and, for every club that has kept a traditional design, there is one that goes through regular change and has profited.

So I did envisage that the club could get a revenue bounce from merchandise sales by switching to the new jumper. In looking back, I don't think that the sales figures bear that out necessarily although it is worth noting that the club has struggled to turn a buck in all areas, not just merchandising.

But I think the biggest advantage to changing your jumper design to something more "modern" is the bounce that you get when you revert back to a traditional design. The long term strategy should have been to revert back to the old lion once merchandise sales of the new lion design had completely stalled. IMO, the time for that was last year but it is never too late. Unfortunately, the club doesn't seem to be following that strategy.

 

[spotthedog1]

Winning and holding their position and worrying their future are probably first on their minds. But for the people that pay their salaries the jumper (not guernsy) is foremost.

The jumper vs winning... Options, options, options... Would I rather:

• My club to still be my club, with the players i've watched since they were rookies, and the history of what they've achieved, and see them win flags, though in a slightly modified strip

OR

• My club lose lots, but in the same strip.

Tough choice. Thanks for speaking on my behalf (one of the people that pay their salaries) though in saying that the design of the jumper the team runs out is more important than what they do in it. I shall remember to teach my daughter to value appearances over substance.

 

[Hollow Knight]

But I think the biggest advantage to changing your jumper design to something more "modern" is the bounce that you get when you revert back to a traditional design. The long term strategy should have been to revert back to the old lion once merchandise sales of the new lion design had completely stalled. IMO, the time for that was last year but it is never too late. Unfortunately, the club doesn't seem to be following that strategy.

Yeah, I may be a little high on hopium but it did cross my mind this morning that releasing a couple of alternative promotional guernseys could be part of that strategy. Use the anti-Paddlepop angst to maximise sales of a couple of limited edition guernseys before you shift back completely to the classic guernsey that they really want.

Then I had my customary large flat white, woke up, and realised that I was probably wish-thinking.

 

[Roylion]

Was it untraditional for the Bears to merge with Fitzroy, thus foresaking their bearish heritage?

Considering the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same club you'd have to question whether a rebranding (their third in ten years) was really forsaking tradition.

The Lion was on the jumper at the time of the merger, but from memory, it wasn't on the jumper til about 1990?

The 'Fitzroy Lion' was first on the Fitzroy jumper in 1968.

Should the jersey actually be the FFC jersey?

From the Deed of Arrangement (commonly referred to as the 'merger agreement') signed between the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Football Club and the Fitzroy Football Club.

"7.2 b) The playing uniform of the Merged Club will, for a period of 7 years after the Merger Date for away games, comprise the existing Fitzroy playing uniform (or the existing Fitzroy preseason playing uniform) (save that the emblem shall be be BL not FFC) and for all home games and all games after 7 years, will predominately comprise all Fitzroy colours in a design approved by AFL;"

Fitzroy colours were light maroon (red), blue and gold.

Any Fitzroy guernsey from 1974 or at a pinch 1968 qualifies under these terms.

How about the plain maroon shirt and gold hose worn in the 1890s?

Doesn't have blue. See above.

New materials? Sorry, untraditional... If you're basing it on the 3 premierships won wearing that strip (and no, FFC never won a premiership in that strip, in fact, they never even won one as the Lions), should we embrace the AAPT logo on the strip as part of the tradition?

To add to the above...

7.2 c) The logo of the merged club will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity;

From the definitions page: "Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

Why not, it's a design? Maybe we should have the pre-Lions strip from when FFC won the VFL?

Does that strip have maroon, blue and gold?

How about - can I have a Bears heritage strip next year? Then can I apply for this to be the ongoing strip of the Brisbane Lions?

Does it have predominately maroon, blue and gold colours?

 

[Roylion]

The jumper vs winning... Options, options, options... Would I rather:

• My club to still be my club, with the players i've watched since they were rookies, and the history of what they've achieved, and see them win flags, though in a slightly modified strip

OR

• My club lose lots, but in the same strip.

If I can't identify with a club, then whether they win or lose is immaterial to me. How do I identify with a Queensland based club, living all my life in Victoria? Through their Fitzroy connection. What's the most obvious form of any Fitzroy connection? The jumper they wear out on the playing arena.

 

[POBT]

Yeah, I may be a little high on hopium but it did cross my mind this morning that releasing a couple of alternative promotional guernseys could be part of that strategy. Use the anti-Paddlepop angst to maximise sales of a couple of limited edition guernseys before you shift back completely to the classic guernsey that they really want.

Then I had my customary large flat white, woke up, and realised that I was probably wish-thinking.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if Holmes wasn't so forthright in his statements. A "we'll review our position during the course of the season" would have given me a little bit of hope.

 

[spotthedog1]

Considering the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same club you'd have to question whether a rebranding (their third in ten years) was really forsaking tradition.

The 'Fitzroy Lion' was first on the Fitzroy jumper in 1968.

From the Deed of Arrangement (commonly referred to as the 'merger agreement') signed between the Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Football Club and the Fitzroy Football Club.

"7.2 b) The playing uniform of the Merged Club will, for a period of 7 years after the Merger Date for away games, comprise the existing Fitzroy playing uniform (or the existing Fitzroy preseason playing uniform) (save that the emblem shall be be BL not FFC) and for all home games and all games after 7 years, will predominately comprise all Fitzroy colours in a design approved by AFL;"

Fitzroy colours were light maroon (red), blue and gold.

Any Fitzroy guernsey from 1974 or at a pinch 1968 qualifies under these terms.

Doesn't have blue. See above.

To add to the above...

7.2 c) The logo of the merged club will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity;

From the definitions page: "Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;

Does that strip have maroon, blue and gold?

Does it have predominately maroon, blue and gold colours?

Did you see the part below that where i stated that i didn't believe, nor was I pushing for, any of those things? I was merely pointing out how someone stating that one particular thing constitutes tradition while stating that anyone else's version of tradition is wrong is simply closed minded and poor form. Had nothing to do with the rules, nor the merger agreement, and I wasn't arguing on those bases.

I apologise for the date - I didn't think the Lion was on there that early - i thought it was later than that. That's my mistake. Regardless, the point stands (that many things can form part of a tradition, and that saying that tradition occurs at X date is wrong - the jumper now may be considered a traditional jumper in years to come).

If you want to argue the terms of the merger agreement, I'm game - I don't believe that clause indicates that the sideways lion shall remain the club's promotional emblem, I believe from a rounded reading of the merger agreement as a whole that this clause intended for the club to be known as the Lions thenceforth (removing the club's right to change the club logo from the Lion to (for example) the Bear again when it felt like it). However I would suggest that this has already been done to death in a million threads and really isn't worth either of our time. Added to that, this is probably the wrong thread for it, seeing as this thread is really supposed to be about the threepeat jumper being worn at two games this year, and being available for sale...

Again, I appreciate that my view on this is different to many, who will read it differently. I have no problem with this, and I have great respect for those people, and am happy to be part of the same pride, excluding the slim few who will provide me with no respect, simply because i differ in view.

 

[Ceebee]

Agreed.

As for Rocky, who knows. While the company line has to be towed to a degree, I'd say Rocky would be one of the first to acknowledge what a jumper, with tradition, means.

I seriously love Rocky.awesome character.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Surely Vossy and the playing group want the paddle pop gone don't they?? Maybe they need to step up to the Administration and say change the Lion back. Why can't more former players and current players speak up on the matter. Surely Alistair Lynch would want to see the Lions playing in the proper Lion.