List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

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rei154 said:
Tbh for me the rationality and humanising language around the players was really pleasant to hear given how we commodify these people.

That and there was an acceptance of potentially splitting 5 (very flippant comment), and that nothing will be forced.
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Thanks mate. One thing that annoys me is people calling players spuds. They were good enough to be drafted to the top league. Far from spuds.
 
JaegarTime said:
For all the talk about how bad our list is… 100% healthy I’m struggling to fit everyone into a best 22
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Personally I feel we have plenty of players good enough to be top 22. I feel our top 6-8 isn’t as good as the top teams. And I feel we have a lot of players in the bottom 6 in a good team category. Solid contributors who are good enough to play but not quite up to the level we need them to be.

Add in we’ve struggled to get the output we should be able to out of our best 22 and we end up at the bottom of the ladder.

We certainly don’t have the worst list. But it’s also not a list that will challenge either.
 
H00t said:
.............. I feel our top 6-8 isn’t as good as the top teams.
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That's pretty tough on these guys I reckon.


Tom Mitchell All Australian.jpg

breust all australian.jpg

jack gunston all australian.jpg

jaeger omeara.jpg

sicily.jpg

wingard all australian.jpg

I mean, it's a little bit hard to be All Australian, right?

While a bunch of supporters seem to think these 27-28 year olds are needing canes and senior citizen cards, for mine they can be just reaching their absolute best. I don't see guys whose play has diminished THAT much, but I do see players who could benefit from a fresh approach as to how the team goes about it.

No doubt more rotations through the midfield by teammates who can actually do work in there would be enormous, but also surrounding them with players who make their efforts pay by being dangerous going forward.

Some other teams may have players in better form, some may have the odd player CLEARLY with more elite traits, but I reckon ANY of these guys walk in to ANY other teams best 6-8 players.

PS. Originally had a pic of Chad in All Australian guise but couldn't handle the Port colors so swapped for much better looking image.:cool:
 

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Ah the 8 year rebuild is a quote from none other than the Pelch.

the guy who seemed almost miffed the 2008 flag interrupted his 7 year rebuild (helped along by Stuart Dew who Clarko had to stick his neck out to get)

mind you it didn’t stop pelch claiming credit for guys he didn’t actually recruit
 
flinchfree said:
That's pretty tough on these guys I reckon.


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I mean, it's a little bit hard to be All Australian, right?

While a bunch of supporters seem to think these 27-28 year olds are needing canes and senior citizen cards, for mine they can be just reaching their absolute best. I don't see guys whose play has diminished THAT much, but I do see players who could benefit from a fresh approach as to how the team goes about it.

No doubt more rotations through the midfield by teammates who can actually do work in there would be enormous, but also surrounding them with players who make their efforts pay by being dangerous going forward.

Some other teams may have players in better form, some may have the odd player CLEARLY with more elite traits, but I reckon ANY of these guys walk in to ANY other teams best 6-8 players.

PS. Originally had a pic of Chad in All Australian guise but couldn't handle the Port colors so swapped for much better looking image.:cool:
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At their best yes. But Mitchell’s best was 2018 even though he was in very good form at the end of the year there’s still a gap to the other top mids, to me at least. Definitely our best player.

Breust and Gunston have been unbelievable for us over the stretch. But with big queries on Gunston’s back and Breust has been great but looking a bit more like a finisher now. Not sure these are the two will be at the forefront of another charge.

JOM has been a solid B+ player for us. Has had some ripper games for us over the stretch. Hasn’t really delivered most likely due to his knee. Lots of good games in his collection and a few shockers. If he could play his ripper games week in week out he’d be incredible.

Sicily has been great in defence. Hopefully he comes back from the knee and is able to get back to he was playing.

Chad has had stretches of great form with us. But then had some very disappointing stretches also. He’s really struggled as a forward. I feel the way we have played hasn’t helped. But he hasn’t been that player since his fourth year. When it looked like the sky was the limit as he was absolutely dominating.

All in all we’d have a very very good top 6-8, if they could all play at their best together at the same time. We haven’t been able to manage it so far (injuries definitely haven’t helped). I see it as a longer shot from happening.

All are great players. And have given 110% for the brown and gold. I’m just marking them harshly as some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very good.
 
H00t said:
At their best yes. But Mitchell’s best was 2018 even though he was in very good form at the end of the year there’s still a gap to the other top mids, to me at least. Definitely our best player.

Breust and Gunston have been unbelievable for us over the stretch. But with big queries on Gunston’s back and Breust has been great but looking a bit more like a finisher now. Not sure these are the two will be at the forefront of another charge.

JOM has been a solid B+ player for us. Has had some ripper games for us over the stretch. Hasn’t really delivered most likely due to his knee. Lots of good games in his collection and a few shockers. If he could play his ripper games week in week out he’d be incredible.

Sicily has been great in defence. Hopefully he comes back from the knee and is able to get back to he was playing.

Chad has had stretches of great form with us. But then had some very disappointing stretches also. He’s really struggled as a forward. I feel the way we have played hasn’t helped. But he hasn’t been that player since his fourth year. When it looked like the sky was the limit as he was absolutely dominating.

All in all we’d have a very very good top 6-8, if they could all play at their best together at the same time. We haven’t been able to manage it so far (injuries definitely haven’t helped). I see it as a longer shot from happening.

All are great players. And have given 110% for the brown and gold. I’m just marking them harshly as some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very good.
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Titch was the best midfielder and player post bye, 0 gap at his best.

Breust can literally play at a high standard for another 5 years, he just never ages and Gunston is a wait and see but at his best he's the best third tall and versatile forward in the comp.

JOM turned into an A+ player early in the year, was at a lock level of AA obv had soreness, than a concussion but came back last 3-4 games strongly. At his best he's very good.

Sicily was the best defender in the comp for a few years without AAs. Could intercept, kick, defend and do everything all in one.

Chad was seriously impressive as a midfielder-forward. At his best again he's an A grader.
 
H00t said:
At their best yes. But Mitchell’s best was 2018 even though he was in very good form at the end of the year there’s still a gap to the other top mids, to me at least. Definitely our best player.

Breust and Gunston have been unbelievable for us over the stretch. But with big queries on Gunston’s back and Breust has been great but looking a bit more like a finisher now. Not sure these are the two will be at the forefront of another charge.

JOM has been a solid B+ player for us. Has had some ripper games for us over the stretch. Hasn’t really delivered most likely due to his knee. Lots of good games in his collection and a few shockers. If he could play his ripper games week in week out he’d be incredible.

Sicily has been great in defence. Hopefully he comes back from the knee and is able to get back to he was playing.

Chad has had stretches of great form with us. But then had some very disappointing stretches also. He’s really struggled as a forward. I feel the way we have played hasn’t helped. But he hasn’t been that player since his fourth year. When it looked like the sky was the limit as he was absolutely dominating.

All in all we’d have a very very good top 6-8, if they could all play at their best together at the same time. We haven’t been able to manage it so far (injuries definitely haven’t helped). I see it as a longer shot from happening.

All are great players. And have given 110% for the brown and gold. I’m just marking them harshly as some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very good.
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Melbourne are the only team that I'd really class as "very, very good" and they finished last season in 9th with the exact same players that they won a premiership with this year.

The Bulldogs are good through the midfield but have a poorly balanced forward line and a bottom 8 defence when the ball actually gets there, Geelong's best players will be another year older and another yard slower with GMHBA stadium being the only thing keeping them competitive, Port Adelaide have a similar problem with a lot of key players on the wrong side of 30 and don't have the depth across the field to cover injuries.

West Coast have fallen off, Richmond have fallen off, GWS have fallen off - there aren't many clubs left that are genuinely intimidating.

I honestly can't think of a time in recent memory where the top 8 seemed so vulnerable.
 

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H00t said:
At their best yes. But Mitchell’s best was 2018 even though he was in very good form at the end of the year there’s still a gap to the other top mids, to me at least. Definitely our best player.

Breust and Gunston have been unbelievable for us over the stretch. But with big queries on Gunston’s back and Breust has been great but looking a bit more like a finisher now. Not sure these are the two will be at the forefront of another charge.

JOM has been a solid B+ player for us. Has had some ripper games for us over the stretch. Hasn’t really delivered most likely due to his knee. Lots of good games in his collection and a few shockers. If he could play his ripper games week in week out he’d be incredible.

Sicily has been great in defence. Hopefully he comes back from the knee and is able to get back to he was playing.

Chad has had stretches of great form with us. But then had some very disappointing stretches also. He’s really struggled as a forward. I feel the way we have played hasn’t helped. But he hasn’t been that player since his fourth year. When it looked like the sky was the limit as he was absolutely dominating.

All in all we’d have a very very good top 6-8, if they could all play at their best together at the same time. We haven’t been able to manage it so far (injuries definitely haven’t helped). I see it as a longer shot from happening.

All are great players. And have given 110% for the brown and gold. I’m just marking them harshly as some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very good.
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I think it's a really good post.
But I'd like to connect two things you've said. First line, 'At their best' and last line 'some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very, very good'.

The thing is, some of those teams only played at their very, very, very best, last year. It had to all come together for Melbourne didn't it...many had career years in their later years, when it counted. There is absolutely no surety they can repeat that. And certainly while some may back up, others will get injured, fall from form just enough to create doubt in the systems they relied on to win the biggest games.

I'm not disputing it's all before us. We are not a no.1 or no.2 team now. And I don't know when that exactly might be.
But that's the whole point. No team ever does, it kinda has to unfold....unless you're the 80's Hawks.

So, to sum up my thinking: We have some very very good players, and to be a really good team we need them ALL playing very well.
But to be a Premiership team, or contending team, we will need our new players to come from the clouds and announce themselves as being very, very, very good themselves, and perhaps launch this current Hawks team back up the ladder and create the winning ethos and style and momentum that nearly all great teams have to undergo.

But to lose our very, very good players now, would mean it would be hard for our younger and newly drafted players to even compete. To understand what winning football felt like. To believe all they had to do was play their role - even if that meant it was a special or elite role - to go up against ANYONE else in the comp.

Every year in the 80's the media and even some Hawk supporters worried if champions would age overnight and become too old too slow.
They didn't count for the heart that is Hawthorn. That it would drive each player to their limit and to greatness.
All the above 6 have that heart, and more importantly that ability.
I for one am not unhappy to see what can be unlocked by new coaches.
 
rogiebear93 said:
Melbourne are the only team that I'd really class as "very, very good" and they finished last season in 9th with the exact same players that they won a premiership with this year.

The Bulldogs are good through the midfield but have a poorly balanced forward line and a bottom 8 defence when the ball actually gets there, Geelong's best players will be another year older and another yard slower with GMHBA stadium being the only thing keeping them competitive, Port Adelaide have a similar problem with a lot of key players on the wrong side of 30 and don't have the depth across the field to cover injuries.

West Coast have fallen off, Richmond have fallen off, GWS have fallen off - there aren't many clubs left that are genuinely intimidating.

I honestly can't think of a time in recent memory where the top 8 seemed so vulnerable.
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I do agree the top 8 looks vulnerable. The inconsistency with seasons of most teams is what’s most crazy to me. Port, dogs, cats, Sydney and lions all played some extremely good footy this year but also put in some absolute shockers.

When these teams play well they play at a very high standard and it’s something our list can’t match. And you can’t really rely on teams playing badly in finals as a strategy to win.
 
Might seem premature but I'd add Will Day to our top 6-8. He's had an interrupted couple of seasons but what we've seen has been seriously impressive. Barring injury, I don't see that changing as his whole approach and footy iq is just part of him.
 
H00t said:
I do agree the top 8 looks vulnerable. The inconsistency with seasons of most teams is what’s most crazy to me. Port, dogs, cats, Sydney and lions all played some extremely good footy this year but also put in some absolute shockers.

When these teams play well they play at a very high standard and it’s something our list can’t match. And you can’t really rely on teams playing badly in finals as a strategy to win.
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In all fairness, I don't think we saw enough of our best football to make that decision. The fact that we had a top 4 record against the top 8 teams stands to reason that we might be pretty good at forcing those teams into bad games. It was ultimately the poor sides we struggled the most with.
 
flinchfree said:
I think it's a really good post.
But I'd like to connect two things you've said. First line, 'At their best' and last line 'some of the teams we have to beat next year are very, very, very good'.

The thing is, some of those teams only played at their very, very, very best, last year. It had to all come together for Melbourne didn't it...many had career years in their later years, when it counted. There is absolutely no surety they can repeat that. And certainly while some may back up, others will get injured, fall from form just enough to create doubt in the systems they relied on to win the biggest games.

I'm not disputing it's all before us. We are not a no.1 or no.2 team now. And I don't know when that exactly might be.
But that's the whole point. No team ever does, it kinda has to unfold....unless you're the 80's Hawks.

So, to sum up my thinking: We have some very very good players, and to be a really good team we need them ALL playing very well.
But to be a Premiership team, or contending team, we will need our new players to come from the clouds and announce themselves as being very, very, very good themselves, and perhaps launch this current Hawks team back up the ladder and create the winning ethos and style and momentum that nearly all great teams have to undergo.

But to lose our very, very good players now, would mean it would be hard for our younger and newly drafted players to even compete. To understand what winning football felt like. To believe all they had to do was play their role - even if that meant it was a special or elite role - to go up against ANYONE else in the comp.

Every year in the 80's the media and even some Hawk supporters worried if champions would age overnight and become too old too slow.
They didn't count for the heart that is Hawthorn. That it would drive each player to their limit and to greatness.
All the above 6 have that heart, and more importantly that ability.
I for one am not unhappy to see what can be unlocked by new coaches.
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Trading our best players is definitely taking a step back to take two steps forward in the coming years. Would it work? Maybe

The above 6 players will give their all. I have no doubt and are all really good players. But flags are very hard to win. We need players to overtake them if we are to win a flag. Doing that while these guys are in their prime will be pretty much impossible. Draftees take time. And trading only works if you have the foundation of a team.
 
rogiebear93 said:
In all fairness, I don't think we saw enough of our best football to make that decision. The fact that we had a top 4 record against the top 8 teams stands to reason that we might be pretty good at forcing those teams into bad games. It was ultimately the poor sides we struggled the most with.
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Will definitely be interesting to see how we go next year. Teams with pace definitely troubled us. Some of the not as good teams put us to the sword by playing quick.

Our 3 games against good teams that we won/drew was the two wins against lions and dogs and the draw against the dees.

Dogs game we comfortably outplayed them and they looked very poor.

Lions and dees I felt should have beaten us. Lions only showed up the last quarter. We can definitely strangle teams if it all goes well. I just can’t see it being top 4 worthy.

I feel there’s a gap in list quality between us and the top teams that no amount of coaching on our end will overcome it.
 
H00t said:
Will definitely be interesting to see how we go next year. Teams with pace definitely troubled us. Some of the not as good teams put us to the sword by playing quick.

Our 3 games against good teams that we won/drew was the two wins against lions and dogs and the draw against the dees.

Dogs game we comfortably outplayed them and they looked very poor.

Lions and dees I felt should have beaten us. Lions only showed up the last quarter. We can definitely strangle teams if it all goes well. I just can’t see it being top 4 worthy.

I feel there’s a gap in list quality between us and the top teams that no amount of coaching on our end will overcome it.
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Lions should have beaten us? That's just confirmation bias, there's no way we should have lost that game. Same with the Melbourne game.

If you're taking that line, we should have beaten Geelong as we came with a bullet and just fell short with some bad umpiring decisions.
 
Fleabane said:
Might seem premature but I'd add Will Day to our top 6-8. He's had an interrupted couple of seasons but what we've seen has been seriously impressive. Barring injury, I don't see that changing as his whole approach and footy iq is just part of him.
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Premature? I'd have him top 5 with a bullet.
 
H00t said:
Will definitely be interesting to see how we go next year. Teams with pace definitely troubled us. Some of the not as good teams put us to the sword by playing quick.

Our 3 games against good teams that we won/drew was the two wins against lions and dogs and the draw against the dees.

Dogs game we comfortably outplayed them and they looked very poor.

Lions and dees I felt should have beaten us. Lions only showed up the last quarter. We can definitely strangle teams if it all goes well. I just can’t see it being top 4 worthy.

I feel there’s a gap in list quality between us and the top teams that no amount of coaching on our end will overcome it.
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Mate. Bringing in 3-4 18 year olds isn't overcoming anything either.
If you want 3-4 years for them to develop into becoming even a shadow of greatness that is likely in their early mid 20's, wouldn't you rather have damned good players around them? Guiding them, teaching them, directing them, showing them how pro's go about it, and also winning games at the same time?

Even if we had picks 1,2,3,4 we wouldn't be top 4 next year, and certainly not if we turfed Mitch/JOM.

It's gonna take time, multiple drafts, seasons of winning 12, then 13, then hopefully 15, and so on games to become what we want to be.
An absolute guess if you JUST take young players who've never been exposed to AFL manly men football.
Our best senior guys have done just that, and been beating them other teams to boot.
 
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H00t said:
Will definitely be interesting to see how we go next year. Teams with pace definitely troubled us. Some of the not as good teams put us to the sword by playing quick.

Our 3 games against good teams that we won/drew was the two wins against lions and dogs and the draw against the dees.

Dogs game we comfortably outplayed them and they looked very poor.

Lions and dees I felt should have beaten us. Lions only showed up the last quarter. We can definitely strangle teams if it all goes well. I just can’t see it being top 4 worthy.

I feel there’s a gap in list quality between us and the top teams that no amount of coaching on our end will overcome it.
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We changed the gameplan after the Clarko news. Took the game on tried to move the ball quicker. If we start the season like that we should be pushing for a top 8 spot IMO.
 
rogiebear93 said:
Lions should have beaten us? That's just confirmation bias, there's no way we should have lost that game. Same with the Melbourne game.

If you're taking that line, we should have beaten Geelong as we came with a bullet and just fell short with some bad umpiring decisions.
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Lions looked like they didn’t want to be there. They definitely didn’t deserve to win on the day. Lions looked unprepared for how we played, they just expected to win. I doubt they will let that happen again.

Dees kick straight they win, especially in that first quarter.

Geelong game we definitely could have won. Some poor footy in the middle of the game cost us.
 
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