List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

[SunshineHawkCal]

Hold on. Hasn't been winning the ball enough, but at the same time he racks up touches????
Hold my brolly I'm about to faint. Go find me his averages per game please every OTHER year than his brownlow. He's an effing beast.
His problem is his foot and hand ball skills are not great, and the coaching plan has players around him too close to eachother so not able to release into real space when he does the quick offload.

Seriously underappreciated player on our team it seems.

Winning the ball at a stoppage is not the same as getting a handball around the back after someone takes a mark or a 1, 2 give and get...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I don’t know how you can say this with such confidence. I’m as confident as you with the list moving forward but I think we performed better last year than our list suggested (and almost all experts predicted), and this was due to the emergence of our younger players and mid season pick ups, as opposed to anything better from our top end. The club has more or less confirmed this by moving on more than half the list in the last 12 months and trying to shop around our 27yo + this period.

We had pretty much the same core midfield starters in 2020 and 2021 as we did when we last played finals….yet they somehow can’t get the ball out of the middle or work together in 2021.

Absolutely I am convinced that the club felt very similar with our output considering the names we have had in the middle, and in 2020 in particular with so many of our better players still out there, the form was putrid.

Same for half of this year, before we “tweaked” the gameplan.

The fact that we could compete with and defeat top 4 sides, when we had players like O’meara, Worpel, Impey, Sicily, Gunston, Hardwick, Jiath and Scrimshaw missing tells me that our 2020 and early 2021 form was a team NOT getting the best out of itself when we struggled against rubbish sides like the Suns, Roos, Crows and Blues.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Couple of reasons for why I think this.

1. We’d have to plan our entire midfield solely around Mitchell if we want to let him just hunt the ball. And while he might be good, he’s not that good. It’s not a plan that will win us a flag. Plus he’s 28. Not at the age where we should build a team around.

2. We’d be stifling our younger players games just for Mitchell. We’ve already seen this with Worpel. And with lots of new mids drafted in the last couple of years I’d like to see them get a good go.

3. We are a rebuilding team. I’d like our leaders to set an example on the field of playing a team first game. Something that, from the outside looking in, Mitchell doesn’t do as well as he should.

4. Personally I also just don’t rate Mitchell’s game. He gets a lot of ball at the detriment of other players. Plus as he gets the ball in bad positions a lot he wastes a lot of disposals. Yes part of that is our players giving Mitchell the ball but he keeps putting himself in those poor positions.

Tightening up Mitchell’s game might mean we lose a couple more games next year but the development of our youth will be significantly increased and provide a better springboard up the ladder.

Not say he has to go full defensive. But about getting the most out of his reading of the play for the overall benefit of the team.

Tell me you never watch footy, without actually telling me.

Bro Mitchell is a star, was one of the best in the competition post bye. LOL

 

[Dewyyyyy]

He's had that licence the last two years & hasn't been winning the ball enough, you can say he racks up so many touches, but where & when does he get these touches, when his clearance stats are half of what his best is... He hasn't been able to replicate his brownlow winning feat in the last two years, what makes you think he will reach it next year & force Worpel's stats & players like Newcombe & co have their development at Senior level limited.

He replicated his brownlow form post bye 2021 lol.

Was kicking a goal a game at one stage late in the year and his game was on fire. One of the best in the game.

 

[Slainte]

Hold on. Hasn't been winning the ball enough, but at the same time he racks up touches????
Hold my brolly I'm about to faint. Go find me his averages per game please every OTHER year than his brownlow. He's an effing beast.
His problem is his foot and hand ball skills are not great, and the coaching plan has players around him too close to eachother so not able to release into real space when he does the quick offload.

Seriously underappreciated player on our team it seems.

I think you have nailed it. the setups need some tweaking to take full advantage of Mitchell's ball winning abilities. Get the setups right with quick, clean ball movement and our midfield will look very different. Mitchell - Nash - Ward - Wingard is the kind of transition that could really open up space and have our forwards licking their lips.

 

[SunshineHawkCal]

He replicated his brownlow form post bye 2021 lol.

Was kicking a goal a game at one stage late in the year and his game was on fire. One of the best in the game.

Thats not true, his numbers were still low in certain stats that were high in his brownlow year.

 

[H00t]

Yeh, I guess we just disagree.
I really rate Mitchell, he's just that good for me. He's plenty good enough to be the ball winning magnet in a premiership team. Don't have to build around him, just let him do what he's brilliant at. Stifled? Seriously??? Doesn't set an example? To the detriment of other playrs? He's wasting a lot of opportunities that others in the team would just kill with their exceptional skills?

This forum has some serious haters of one Tom Mitchell. Considering the sh*te other players around him have put out at various times over the last few years, it's flabbergasting to me.
Ah well. Taste and all that.

If Mitchell focussed on his inside game, he’d definitely have a part to play in a premiership. Crack in hard at the contest, then work hard defensively in open play and open space for our better ball users. Haven’t seen this from him though.

Mitchell has a stifling presence in the midfield. He doesn’t bring his fellow midfielders into the game. Which is something he struggled with in 2018.

From watching games this year I’ve seen Worpel get frustrated with Mitchell a number of times especially in open play. Maybe I’m reading the wrong thing into this but I doubt Worpel would be frustrated from Mitchell doing the team thing.

The big examples I can think of is when we have the ball coming out of the back half and Mitchell will bring his man into the area we want to move the ball blocking our run. Mitchell then gets the handball receive then dumps a kick around the corner. Instead of Impey/CJ etc having an open field to run into.

I’m pretty sure no one on here hates Mitchell, I just don’t rate him as high as others. Especially given Mitchell has stuff to work on same as all our other players.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Thats not true, his numbers were still low in certain stats that were high in his brownlow year.

His averages post bye were around:
36-37 touches
13-14 contested possies
18 kicks 19 handballs (there abouts)
74% DE
0.7 goals a game i think
6 ish score involvements
450-500 metres gained
6 ish clearances
6 ish tackles
4.5-5 inside 50s.

So a few stats a little lower or a little higher, it's similar.

 

[H00t]

Tell me you never watch footy, without actually telling me.

Bro Mitchell is a star, was one of the best in the competition post bye. LOL

I know you keep repeating this to me. But it doesn’t make it correct. Mitchell is a very good midfielder. But there were better mids this year than him. (Even after the bye)

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I know you keep repeating this to me. But it doesn’t make it correct. Mitchell is a very good midfielder. But there were better mids this year than him. (Even after the bye)

No chance. I think Steele and him were probably the pick post bye, Wines aswell.

He's def one of the best in the biz.

 

[Lickmesocks]

Has O'meara been weighed down by too much responsibility considering the lack of talent transitioning through the midfield? I'm not prepared to put a line through him yet as I think with more support around him and more dominant rucks he could become more of an impact player ... Interested in people's thoughts.

Looks like he is still in WA holidaying going by his IG. Perhaps Sam has seen him weighed down as well and told him to take an extended break. Wonder if he wanted a trade to WA when all the rumours were circulating.

 

[Lickmesocks]

I wouldn’t pick him in our best side but Mitchell has flagged he will play an important role in the squad. I hope that he is depth playing mostly at box hill.

Shiels is cooked at AFL level. Was two years ago but we keep rolling him out week after week.

 

[H00t]

No chance. I think Steele and him were probably the pick post bye, Wines aswell.

He's def one of the best in the biz.

Petracca and Oliver just spearheaded a super dominant flag win. Miller broke the record for most games in a row over 30 touches.

Mitchell no doubt a good midfielder but a rung below the very best mids with his end of 2021 form. And a rung below that from his start of 2021 form.

 

[grumbleguts]

I know you keep repeating this to me. But it doesn’t make it correct. Mitchell is a very good midfielder. But there were better mids this year than him. (Even after the bye)

Brownlow votes since the bye


Wines, Ollie 21
Mitchell, Tom 20
Steele, Jack 16
Walsh, Sam 14
Lyons, Jarryd 13
Bontempelli, Marcus 12
Boak, Travis 12
Merrett, Zach 12
Oliver, Clayton 11
Petracca, Christian 10
Guthrie, Cameron 10
Miller, Touk 9
Mundy, David 8
Mills, Callum 8
Parish, Darcy 6

So yeah nah, he did alright after the bye.

 

[H00t]

Brownlow votes since the bye


Wines, Ollie 21
Mitchell, Tom 20
Steele, Jack 16
Walsh, Sam 14
Lyons, Jarryd 13
Bontempelli, Marcus 12
Boak, Travis 12
Merrett, Zach 12
Oliver, Clayton 11
Petracca, Christian 10
Guthrie, Cameron 10
Miller, Touk 9
Mundy, David 8
Mills, Callum 8
Parish, Darcy 6

So yeah nah, he did alright after the bye.

Petracca and Oliver have just 1 vote more combined than Mitchell on his own. And Guthrie outpolling Miller.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. But I just don’t have him in the absolute top rung of mids this year.

 

[grumbleguts]

Petracca and Oliver have just 1 vote more combined than Mitchell on his own. And Guthrie outpolling Miller.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. But I just don’t have him in the absolute top rung of mids this year.

You said "even after the bye" After the bye he was elite. He was back in brownlow form.

 

[H00t]

You said "even after the bye" After the bye he was elite. He was back in brownlow form.

Yes even after the bye. I didn’t have him in the top rung.

I feel very comfortable saying he overpolled in the second half of the year compared to his output infield and relative to other players in the league.

I have him rated alongside Miller and Macrae with his form in the second half of the year. All a rung below the top mids.

Plus I will say I also don’t think his form in the back half of this year equalled his Brownlow from either in a 4 week stretch Mitchell had 43, 46, 42 and 43 possessions alongside 5 goals as well as starting the year with 50, 40 and 42 with 3 goals. In 22 H and A games he hit 40+ disposals 11 times. He only hit this mark 4 times this year. With only 2 being post bye.

I’m on the record about not wanting Mitchell to have a ton of disposals but let’s not make out like his 2021 equals his 2018 form.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Looks like he is still in WA holidaying going by his IG. Perhaps Sam has seen him weighed down as well and told him to take an extended break. Wonder if he wanted a trade to WA when all the rumours were circulating.

Was back at training today

 

[cryptor]

Haha people saying "get rid of O'Meara."


In the past two seasons Hawthorn has played 39 games.
Our record: P:39 W:12 D:2 L:25

With O'Meara on the field
Our record: P:30 W:11 D:2 L:17
Without O'Meara on the field
Our record: P:9 W:1 D:0 L:8

So either he's the only one not tanking for draft picks or he is a massive positive influence on the side's performance.

I think the "problem" with O'Meara for a lot of people is that expectation (which was sky high) never met reality (which is still high).

We'd just come off a threepeat and ran out of steam (yes, I know throwdogs too) and Clarko sold the dream of a rebuild on the run by effectively sending off S.Mitchell and Lewis to bring in T.Mitchell and O'Meara. Mitchell hits the ground running and having only cost us a late first rounder wins a Brownlow in his second year with us.

O'Meara on the other hand takes time to get back with his knee issues. But the expectation was so high for him. We'd undoubtedly paid more for him than we did for Mitchell. And Mitchell had won a Brownlow so clearly O'Meara was going to become an even more dominant player. What Dustin Martin was for Richmond from 2017 onwards is how I think a lot of Hawks fan were expecting O'Meara to be for us. Unfortunately he hasn't reached that level but it's also blinded people from the reality... He's a damn good player and he makes the team perform better being in it - as your stats support.

 

[JaegarTime]

Yes even after the bye. I didn’t have him in the top rung.

I feel very comfortable saying he overpolled in the second half of the year compared to his output infield and relative to other players in the league.

I have him rated alongside Miller and Macrae with his form in the second half of the year. All a rung below the top mids.

Plus I will say I also don’t think his form in the back half of this year equalled his Brownlow from either in a 4 week stretch Mitchell had 43, 46, 42 and 43 possessions alongside 5 goals as well as starting the year with 50, 40 and 42 with 3 goals. In 22 H and A games he hit 40+ disposals 11 times. He only hit this mark 4 times this year. With only 2 being post bye.

I’m on the record about not wanting Mitchell to have a ton of disposals but let’s not make out like his 2021 equals his 2018 form.

Agree tbh, stats wise his second half was very good and obviously that also translated to a better performance. I think placing him with Macrae and Miller is fair as I also believe they’re a rung below the absolute elite.
This isn’t bagging Mitchell, he’s still a great player but just unfortunately doesn’t quite have the impact as some of those in the absolute elite.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Tell me you never watch footy, without actually telling me.

Bro Mitchell is a star, was one of the best in the competition post bye. LOL

Seriously? A Hawk fan should know by now after our 3peat, that a premiership is won by a team where each member plays there role.

premierships are not won by one super star kicking 100 goals, ala Buddy style. This is why Clarko reportedly never wanted Buddy to kick 100 goals in a season again.

Tom needs to be a team player.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Seriously? A Hawk fan should know by now after our 3peat, that a premiership is won by a team where each member plays there role.

premierships are not won by one super star kicking 100 goals, ala Buddy style. This is why Clarko reportedly never wanted Buddy to kick 100 goals in a season again.

Tom needs to be a team player.

He is ;0

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

He is ;0

Leather poisoning would say other wise

 

[Brant]

O'Meara on the other hand takes time to get back with his knee issues. But the expectation was so high for him. We'd undoubtedly paid more for him than we did for Mitchell. And Mitchell had won a Brownlow so clearly O'Meara was going to become an even more dominant player. What Dustin Martin was for Richmond from 2017 onwards is how I think a lot of Hawks fan were expecting O'Meara to be for us. Unfortunately he hasn't reached that level but it's also blinded people from the reality... He's a damn good player and he makes the team perform better being in it - as your stats support.

I'll be very interested to see how he plays with Nash in the side (as a midfielder) in 2022 & if they strike an effective partnership.

I know they both played against Dockers & it didn't work (can't recall if Nash was forward & played 2nd half in midfield), but their last few games together say O'Meara playing very well.

Round 20: 35 disposals (Nash 23)
Round 21: 27 disposals (Nash 20)
Round 22: JO'M injured (Nash 14)
Round 23: 36 disposals (Nash 24)

Not enough of a sample size to prove anything & there's plenty of other stuff going on out there, but I really think that JO'M has been forced to play defensively minded to cover for the ball-hunting mindset of Mitchell & Worpel. He's bloody good at it, but we've then not seen as much of his offensive game as a result.

If Nash (or Duke) play with that strong-bodied, negating role, I wonder if it lets JO'M off the leash a bit to be more offensively minded?

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

If Mitchell focussed on his inside game, he’d definitely have a part to play in a premiership. Crack in hard at the contest, then work hard defensively in open play and open space for our better ball users. Haven’t seen this from him though.

Mitchell has a stifling presence in the midfield. He doesn’t bring his fellow midfielders into the game. Which is something he struggled with in 2018.

From watching games this year I’ve seen Worpel get frustrated with Mitchell a number of times especially in open play. Maybe I’m reading the wrong thing into this but I doubt Worpel would be frustrated from Mitchell doing the team thing.

The big examples I can think of is when we have the ball coming out of the back half and Mitchell will bring his man into the area we want to move the ball blocking our run. Mitchell then gets the handball receive then dumps a kick around the corner. Instead of Impey/CJ etc having an open field to run into.

I’m pretty sure no one on here hates Mitchell, I just don’t rate him as high as others. Especially given Mitchell has stuff to work on same as all our other players.

Spot on. A number of times he also ran past the man with the ball post a mark, demanding it, but getting it on his right, which he has none, and then having to stop and return it or pivot and hack it forward.

He played some pretty selfish footy in 2021 and expect one S. Mitchell will put a stop to that.