Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[RedmanWasHere]

Btw, I thought it may interest this forum to know that 'Swamp' is re-building the AFLs database from scratch as it was old and couldn't handle any new changes introduced (AFLW etc etc)

Draining the swamp?
As it were?

 

[Oliver G]

Good news. All of SR's feedback is complete.
He has reviewed up to page 133.

I will , separately, create a spreadsheet documenting the page 133 onwards changes.
(Make sure you put a summary for a change you want)

And sometime down the track SR will look at it, but not in the current future.

Btw, I thought it may interest this forum to know that 'Swamp' is re-building the AFLs database from scratch as it was old and couldn't handle any new changes introduced (AFLW etc etc)

So SR and Col are still our go to people for them to decide if a change is accept or not by the AFL.
'Swamp' will be the guy who inputs the data into the database eventually once that database is built. (I dont know if it will be available to public or not etc etc )

Thanks, Rhett, for all the updates over the past few weeks.

It's good to hear that the AFL's database is being rebuilt. It's slightly concerning that Swamp is handling this, given his history of dealing with anyone questioning V/AFL records, but it's important that this work gets done, and hopefully, it does become publicly available.

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks, Rhett, for all the updates over the past few weeks.

It's good to hear that the AFL's database is being rebuilt. It's slightly concerning that Swamp is handling this, given his history of dealing with anyone questioning V/AFL records, but it's important that this work gets done, and hopefully, it does become publicly available.

I've spoken to him personally and he said he's more than happy to update any changes that are discovered etc as he wants the database to be correct as possible.

 

[stemline]

1988 Rnd 15 Bris v Haw - Behinds correction

All references have Hawthorn's Paul Abbott kicking 1 behind in this game, with 6 Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.

As per below video, Paul Abbott kicks 2 behinds, Hawthorn's 2nd and 3rd. All other player scores align, with only 5 Rushed for Hawthorn.



Summary -

1988 Rnd 15 Bris v Haw - Paul Abbott plus 1 behind, 'Rushed for Hawthorn' minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

1988 R17 Melb v Haw - Behinds Correction

All references have Andrew Collins and Chris Wittman each kicking 1 behind in this game. Per the below video, Collins kicks 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 3rd and 4th). From the commentary, it sounds likely the 2nd behind was mistakenly given to Wittman. Wittman does not score in this game.

For clarity I have included the 2 rushed behinds recorded for Hawthorn (their 7th and 10th of the game) in the video.



Summary -

1988 Rnd 17 Melb v Haw - Andrew Collins plus 1 behind, Chris Wittman minus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

1988 R17 Melb v Haw - Behinds Correction

All references have Andrew Collins and Chris Wittman each kicking 1 behind in this game. Per the below video, Collins kicks 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 3rd and 4th). From the commentary, it sounds likely the 2nd behind was mistakenly given to Wittman. Wittman does not score in this game.

For clarity I have included the 2 rushed behinds recorded for Hawthorn (their 7th and 10th of the game) in the video.



Summary -

1988 Rnd 17 Melb v Haw - Andrew Collins plus 1 behind, Chris Wittman minus 1 behind.

At what point did they stop crediting a behind to a player if it came off hands.

 

[rbartlett]

This 1952 article shows George Parris "a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played full back with Fitzroy 38 years ago..." being met by Dyer, and Jack O'Rourke and Lord Mayor in his hospital bed.

Surprise for old footballer - The Sun News-Pictorial (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954; 1956) - 27 Oct 1952

MR. GEORGE PARRIS, a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played fullback with Fitzroy 38 years ...

nla.gov.au

But I cant see any George Parris (or similar spelling) playing for Fitzroy circa 1914, or on their playing list ever.

AFL Tables - All Time Player List - Fitzroy

I thought maybe it was a typo of George Pattison, but he had died one year earlier in 1951

George Pattison (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then theres a Keith Parris for Essendon and some VFA clubs, but no Fitzroy

Keith Parris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[35Daicos]

This 1952 article shows George Parris "a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played full back with Fitzroy 38 years ago..." being met by Dyer, and Jack O'Rourke and Lord Mayor in his hospital bed.

Surprise for old footballer - The Sun News-Pictorial (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954; 1956) - 27 Oct 1952

MR. GEORGE PARRIS, a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played fullback with Fitzroy 38 years ...

nla.gov.au

But I cant see any George Parris (or similar spelling) playing for Fitzroy circa 1914, or on their playing list ever.

AFL Tables - All Time Player List - Fitzroy

I thought maybe it was a typo of George Pattison, but he had died one year earlier in 1951

George Pattison (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then theres a Keith Parris for Essendon and some VFA clubs, but no Fitzroy

Keith Parris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is probably him (he'd have been the right sort of age, and living in the right area), but maybe he invented the playing for Fitzroy bit!!:

 

[stemline]

At what point did they stop crediting a behind to a player if it came off hands.

I'm really not sure but i expect I'll find out... but it's very consistent in the games I'm looking at. Seems like if the ball was originally on line to score then it was given to the kicker, often even if it's punched through.

Applying today's interpretation would alter a huge percentage of players' behind tallies. Pot shots from 50 were all the rage back then!

 

[Bandit55]

SR assumes this is an unresolved entry - as there was no summary. So no change has been made.
For your reference he has provided this information from afl's archives.

Morley
Campbell sheet:
Arthur Morley for '30; A.Morley for '31

Sowdon sheets:
He's called Arthur Morley

Clearance book:
couldn't see him, to North;
then:
W.Morley, North to Prahran in '32

According to South Melbourne Districts. Arthur Morley played there in 1929 and 1930, and was in their 1930 premiership team.

 

[Bandit55]

This 1952 article shows George Parris "a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played full back with Fitzroy 38 years ago..." being met by Dyer, and Jack O'Rourke and Lord Mayor in his hospital bed.

Surprise for old footballer - The Sun News-Pictorial (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954; 1956) - 27 Oct 1952

MR. GEORGE PARRIS, a patient in Prince Henry's Hospital, who played fullback with Fitzroy 38 years ...

nla.gov.au

But I cant see any George Parris (or similar spelling) playing for Fitzroy circa 1914, or on their playing list ever.

AFL Tables - All Time Player List - Fitzroy

I thought maybe it was a typo of George Pattison, but he had died one year earlier in 1951

George Pattison (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then theres a Keith Parris for Essendon and some VFA clubs, but no Fitzroy

Keith Parris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the Encyclopedia, Keith Parris was ex-Fitzroy reserves and Camberwell.

 

[Bandit55]

An update on Carl Bowen the former Woodend, Richmond Reserves and Port Melbourne player. He was a dual Port Melbourne premiership player and a member of their ‘Team of the Century’:

https://websites.sportstg.com/club_...task=DETAIL&articleID=5096285&sectionID=59318

He passed away in December 2020:

https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20210313143712/https://tjscott.etributes.com.au/etributes/carl-bowen/

https://www.mytributes.com.au/notice/death-notices/bowen-carl/5611581/

Summary

Update Carl Bowen in AF and Richmond Reserves player records as follows:

Full name: Carl Eric Bowen Nickname: ‘Lofty’ DoB: 27 May 1934 DoD: 15 December 2020

 

[killer]

1915ish?

I doubt if those guys would have turned up without knowing him

 

[Oliver G]

At what point did they stop crediting a behind to a player if it came off hands.

I'm really not sure but i expect I'll find out... but it's very consistent in the games I'm looking at. Seems like if the ball was originally on line to score then it was given to the kicker, often even if it's punched through.

Applying today's interpretation would alter a huge percentage of players' behind tallies. Pot shots from 50 were all the rage back then!

It may have been when Champion took over the licence in 1999, a few years ago they said...

We only credit behinds to players where they have kicked the ball through. Balls touched on the line are also credited with a behind, but those that fall short and are punched/knocked through are given as a rushed behind (and a missed shot to the kicking player). No player is credited for rushed behinds. All other instances where a behind is paid where it hasn't been kicked through are given as rushed behinds.

The same issue applies with tackles and clearances in matches before 1999 as Champion's definition in both those stats differs from other sources.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: Terry Smith - StK - Round 5 1984 vs Geelong wore No. 30 in the first half and then No. 52 in the second half, as per a dvd recording of the game I have.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1984 R5 St. Kilda vs Geelong

australianfootball.com

AFL Tables - St Kilda v Geelong - Sat, 28-Apr-1984 2:10 PM - Match Stats

 

[stemline]

1989 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - behinds correction for North

All references have North's Brett Allison kicking no behinds in this game, with 1 rushed for North.

The below video contains all North's behinds for this game (no scoreboard). Allison kicks North's 3rd behind for the game at the start of the 3rd qtr. All other player scores align, there are no rushed behinds.



Summary -

1989 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Brett Allison (NM) plus 1 behind, 'Rushed for NM' minus 1 behind.

 

[Bandit55]

SR has decided not to make any chance regarding Jack Patterson.
He provides this evidence from afl records

Patterson
Campbell sheet:
John Patterson at South '31
North '32: J.Paterson
North '34: J.Patterson
North '35: J.Patterson

Sowdon sheets:
He's called Jack Patterson
Clearances:
can't see him coming to South;
J.Paterson South to North in '32
J.Paterson North to Willy in '36
(frustratingly no middle initial!)

ABC records - by Percy Taylor
North '34
Jack Patterson
North '35
Jack Patterson d.o.b. 27 - 5 - 11

"So, Percy Taylor started to keep Campbell-like sheets, initially from the era he was a player himself, starting a few years before that debut, when as a youngster in his teenage years he must have been interested in it, eventually did it from '34 to '74.
Initially with just the names; then, gradually, with d-o-b's, and after a while, everyone's d-o-b. So, dumbing this down, to abbreviate, North have basically told him: Jack Patterson is our '35 player, with that d-o-b.
(He couldn't have got the info any other way, we feel.) So we better stick with 27 - 5 - 11, for the time being...)

So if Wiki, AFLT, or AustFoot has different info, best to change it/leave it as above.

The Wikipedia page for Jack Patterson now identifies him as John Southey Paterson (27 May 1908 – 27 October 1994).

It doesn't mention that he was North's 1932 best and fairest:

A mystery solved

Thanks to some elaborate research from a loyal member, kangaroos.com.au can reveal the club's 1932 best and fairest, Jack Patterson.

www.afl.com.au

 

[35Daicos]

The Wikipedia page for Jack Patterson now identifies him as John Southey Paterson (27 May 1908 – 27 October 1994).

It doesn't mention that he was North's 1932 best and fairest:

A mystery solved

Thanks to some elaborate research from a loyal member, kangaroos.com.au can reveal the club's 1932 best and fairest, Jack Patterson.

www.afl.com.au

This certainly needs another look then!

Jack Patterson played for South Melbourne (1931), North Melbourne (1932-36) and then Williamstown (1937-40).

Currently recorded as having date of birth 28 May 1911 and date of death 27 October 1994.

These dates match John Patrick Patterson, son of Patrick James Patterson and Bridget Kenny, born in Cobram (see service record) and died in Wodonga according to Ancestry trees

Unfortunately in all 1930s electoral rolls John Patrick Patterson is living in Cobram and searching on Trove it appears he was a footballer – but playing for Strathmerton in the Murray League with his brother James Joseph Patterson (b 1913)
The player has been mis-identified and current DOB/DOD in football sources are incorrect.

The VFL/VFA footballer Jack Patterson

• Joined South Melb from SM District in 1931 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164965476
• Was a first year player for SM District in 1930 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164969950
• Moved to North Melb in 1932 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242797422
• Missed 1933 with a broken leg http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article243310086
• Moved to Williamstown in 1936 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11031867
• Premiership winner in 1939 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180248885

This article shows in 1946 he was married to a Mrs M. Patterson.

Also this article shows marriage was before 1943.

My current best guess is John Henry Patterson – son of Robert Baron Patterson and Ada Woolley, born 17 Dec 1912 in Port Melbourne, died 21 March 1996, married Lila May Wilson in 1938.

…but he seems to live in South Melbourne / Armadale / Malvern - it would have been a fair commute to North/Williamstown for 8 years so not convinced this is right

From his Wiki page:

From an Ancestry tree:


The DOB matches the Wiki one but the DOD doesn't. It does look certain the footballer was married in 1936:

 

[35Daicos]

^ I've just noticed there were a few more posts on this topic (Paterson/Patterson) way back in 2021, and it did look as if this one was solved (or should have been), so not sure why this change wasn't accepted!!: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ficial-records.1089761/page-114#post-70969965

 

[Bandit55]

The full name of South's Jack Eichhorn was John Otto Eichhorn:

John EICHHORN Death Notice - Melbourne, Victoria | The Age

EICHHORNJohn Otto (Jack)23.12.1925 - 20.02.2018Beloved husband of Sheila, much loved father and father-in-law of John and Rita, Michael and Clare, Bill and Jane, Maureen and Ignazio, devoted grandfather of Emma, Daniel, Kate, James, Alberta, Matilda and Matthew and great-grandfather of...

tributes.theage.com.au

Summary: Update Jack Eichhorn's full name to John Otto Eichhorn.

 

[the croucher]

The Wikipedia page for Jack Patterson now identifies him as John Southey Paterson (27 May 1908 – 27 October 1994).

It doesn't mention that he was North's 1932 best and fairest:

A mystery solved

Thanks to some elaborate research from a loyal member, kangaroos.com.au can reveal the club's 1932 best and fairest, Jack Patterson.

www.afl.com.au

I suggest that someone comes up with the evidence that Paterson/Patterson was North's B&F in '32.
Quite a few years ago, in early days of Trove being available, I communicated with North Melbourne and advised the club that the 1932 claim should not be recognised as the award was "most popular player" - not an acceptable form of "best player for season" recognition.

FOOTBALL. - Quiet Meeting at North Melbourne. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 8 Dec 1932

Although a reform party has str[?] contested the campaign for the election of offi[?] of the North Melbourne Football Club, the ann[?] meeting of the Club, which was held at the ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: remove Jack Patterson's name (1932) from North Melbourne list of B&F winners

 

[rbartlett]

Sorry to be a hassle, but I cant recall who our wiki updater is.
A lot of the changes have been done, but I think some of the recent changes approved from SR from post #3596 onwards has yet to be reflected in Wikipedia, please.

SR writes
Reid
with him, we've changed it from Allan to Alan, and changed the d-o-b from 14 - 12, to 4 - 12 - as advised to us by someone at some time, maybe you guys previously, who knows!


So Wiki, AFLT, Oliver G update records

 

[rbartlett]

Regarding my prev post about Wikipedia.

For instance, these updates to goals with first kick need to be reflected on Wiki please

List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SR writes

Goals with first kick
As you say, not sure about Travis Payze at this stage. But added:

Harry Hickey - Foots
Mick Mulligan - S.Melb
we'll leave it at the confirmed 2 from 2 for now; ambiguous next week, isn't it.

John Duthie - N.Melb

Phil Evans - Geel

Daryl Cumming - Rich

Laurie Moloney - Ess

Garry Foulds - Ess

Samson Ryan - Rich
so, as you know, first match, 2021 Round 15, no kicks;
second match, 2023 Round 2, so, you're saying we should give him 3 asterisks, we'll do that; (slight amendment to what's in the Guide now); the stats say 4 kicks, 3 goals; so one more kick (no goal) after the first 3 being goals

Frank Davis - Melb; and Col Deane - Melb
- already in the current Guide

McMillan/MacMillan - seems inconclusive, more than 1 goal (which he's in as now - the 1). (From memory, I think the family at one stage told us, he went by both McMillan and MacMillan.)

Chris Stone - St K
already with 2 asterisks in the Guide.
(You would have noted, Rhett, he died later in '23, on 24 - 11 - 23.)


NOT APPROVED
Roy Files - N.Melb
Bill Morrow - Melb
Bill Smeaton - Melb (was a practice match)


Can someone wash all this info against the WIKI page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_a_goal_with_their_first_kick to make sure it has this info please

Sr has also approved
"Goal with first kick
Vin Crowe - Rich "

So that can please be added to the First Kick Goal wiki page and any other relevant pages.

 

[Gibbsy]

Sorry to be a hassle, but I cant recall who our wiki updater is.
A lot of the changes have been done, but I think some of the recent changes approved from SR from post #3596 onwards has yet to be reflected in Wikipedia, please.

Regarding my prev post about Wikipedia.

For instance, these updates to goals with first kick need to be reflected on Wiki please

List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ThePope is usually our Wiki man, although I think the question of sources (can't just be SR's notes unfortunately) will arise

 

[stemline]

1989 Rnd 14 Haw v WC - behind correction for West Coast

All references have John Annear (WC) kicking no behinds in this game, and 4 rushed behinds for West Coast.

Per below video, Annear kicks West Coast's 9th behind of the game. All other player scores align, but there are only 3 rushed behinds for West Coast.



Summary -

1989 Rnd 14 Haw v WC - John Annear plus 1 behind; Rushed for West Coast minus 1 behind.