News Lumumba's documentary and recent comments

[PIEWITHSAUCE]

Here's her article:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...id-the-collateral-damage-20170904-gyaiwh.html

I think it's a well written piece and I agree with most of it. She even flagged the good things Ed has done for both Harry and Krak behind the scenes.

On the topic of racism, I think silence is damning. I think Ed and Collingwood should come out and take responsibility for potentially not understanding the deeper cultural issues at play. It's not an admission that Collingwood is a racist Club, it's an admission that there is still work to be done with indigenous players in our game.

I agree. I think H is a gold standard tosser but that doesn't mean there ain't something to what he's saying.

I also hope that this isn't impacting the way that guys like Kirby and Wells view the club. If the club are ignoring this internally as well as externally , it could be getting very uncomfortable.

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

Well the its hard for the club to discipline players over this when the President calls Goodes an Ape (pretty much). What did our board do to McGuire at the time? He as all over a 13 year old girl with no evidence or context. Was very quick to say members would have their membership cancelled but its OK for him to stuff up but not anyone else?

Blind freddy can McGuire is a big problem re this issue and his lack of understanding of issues and his big mouth makes him more and more of a liability. Its worth noting that he stuffed up again re Caro, he just can't help himself.

 

[sideswipe]

I see Mick is quoted as saying that these issues took place outside his time at the club. True or just him distancing himself from the blame?

I think that isn't quite right. Malthouse wasn't talking about issues of racism at the Club, he was stating that he wasn't at Collingwood at the time of the "relationship breakdown" between Club and Lumumba.

"Clearly, something has taken place, certainly outside of my time, (but) sometimes the chemistry doesn’t mix with people." And he goes on a bit more, but he is talking about Heritier (calls him Harry at one point) as a person, not whether events occurred on his watch.

 

[sideswipe]

Choose your option

1. He didn't notice it because it wasn't very noticeable as Lumumba is exaggerating the extent of it.
2. Malthouse is telling the truth. It only started happening after Buckley took over when lumumba was already 25 years old and inexplicably at that age started being a target that he never was in seven years under the previous coach.
3. Lumumba is lying. Never ever happened.
4. Malthouse is lying. Continuing his feud with Eddie and bucks.

Personally there's only two possible correct answers out of that list. 1 or. 4. My guess is 1.

Incidentally krakouer played under both Malthouse and Buckley. He didn't make any implications that it wasn't happening under Malthouse.

Further to my above post, suggest you read this. Notwithstanding a completely misleading headline, MM is supporting Harry as a person. As far as I can tell, he has made no attempt to distance himself from occurrences of racism at the Club. He merely comes out in general support of H as a person.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/le...s/news-story/dd72ca5d1f40220d1c2f8018ee0ca397

 

[60 Yards Out]

From what we've seen so far it looks like:

- Leon has made a general statement of personal support for Heritier and said both have experienced racism in their lives, but said nothing specific about Collingwood.
- Andrew has said comments were made by people at the club that were ignorant but it didn't seem like racism was intended.
- Mick has said something, whatever it was or might have meant.

None of that looks like corroboration of a racist culture, so we can calm down on that aspect.

Having said that... this should be treated as a cautionary tale, and training and protocols should be instituted (or tightened if already in place). Just keep it in perspective, and resist the temptation to bark at every passing car.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

From what we've seen so far it looks like:

- Leon has made a general statement of personal support for Heritier and said both have experienced racism in their lives, but said nothing specific about Collingwood.
- Andrew has said comments were made by people at the club that were ignorant but it didn't seem like racism was intended.
- Mick has said something, whatever it was or might have meant.

None of that looks like corroboration of a racist culture, so we can calm down on that aspect.

Having said that... this should be treated as a cautionary tale, and training and protocols should be instituted (or tightened if already in place). Just keep it in perspective, and resist the temptation to bark at every passing car.

Pretty much this

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Further to my above post, suggest you read this. Notwithstanding a completely misleading headline, MM is supporting Harry as a person. As far as I can tell, he has made no attempt to distance himself from occurrences of racism at the Club. He merely comes out in general support of H as a person.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/le...s/news-story/dd72ca5d1f40220d1c2f8018ee0ca397

Fair enough if that's all Malthouse said then I plead guilty to responding to headlines

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I think that isn't quite right. Malthouse wasn't talking about issues of racism at the Club, he was stating that he wasn't at Collingwood at the time of the "relationship breakdown" between Club and Lumumba.

"Clearly, something has taken place, certainly outside of my time, (but) sometimes the chemistry doesn’t mix with people." And he goes on a bit more, but he is talking about Heritier (calls him Harry at one point) as a person, not whether events occurred on his watch.

He wasn't at the club at the breakdown with the club and many players. Nor was he at Melbourne when their relationship with Harry broke down there either.

Malthouse clearly pointing the blame at somebody other than himself for a relationship breakdown. Whether that has anything to do with race or racism is a stretch though.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think that isn't quite right. Malthouse wasn't talking about issues of racism at the Club, he was stating that he wasn't at Collingwood at the time of the "relationship breakdown" between Club and Lumumba.

"Clearly, something has taken place, certainly outside of my time, (but) sometimes the chemistry doesn’t mix with people." And he goes on a bit more, but he is talking about Heritier (calls him Harry at one point) as a person, not whether events occurred on his watch.

I think Mick is being a bit disingenuous here really. You can interpret it as purely supporting H and talking about the breakdown between player and club being not during his time.

Buckley’s predecessor Mick Malthouse said Lumumba’s claims should be taken seriously.

“I’m very, very proud of Heritier,’’ Malthouse said on SEN.

But part of Heretiers claims are he was called Chimp for years and he describes Collingwood in his time as “a boys’ club for racist and sexist jokes”.

Leon also claims he came up against the same sort of thing while at Collingwood. So both these players are saying there were troubles while MM was coach also. If MM really wanted H's claims to be taken seriously rather than note part of it occurred off his time he should be saying he is dismayed to be hearing the Chimp nickname was used during his tenure and taking a bit of ownership of where to take this next. It's all a bit convenient to say Heretiers claims should be taken seriously but not to address what the issues were when he was coach. For instance he should comment on whether he knew of players calling Heretier Chimp but thought it benign or that he wasn't aware of it at all. That would be a good start is examining this with more leadership from those who were at the top at the time. Bucks and Eddie should similarly be leading the way here.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yep. Leon ( who never played under Buckley) confirms some of these things happened (which by definition happened under Malthouse who denies any knowledge ) .

Disingenuous is a kind description.

 

[JB1975]

I think Mick is being a bit disingenuous here really. You can interpret it as purely supporting H and talking about the breakdown between player and club being not during his time.

Buckley’s predecessor Mick Malthouse said Lumumba’s claims should be taken seriously.

“I’m very, very proud of Heritier,’’ Malthouse said on SEN.

But part of Heretiers claims are he was called Chimp for years and he describes Collingwood in his time as “a boys’ club for racist and sexist jokes”.

Leon also claims he came up against the same sort of thing while at Collingwood. So both these players are saying there were troubles while MM was coach also. If MM really wanted H's claims to be taken seriously rather than note part of it occurred off his time he should be saying he is dismayed to be hearing the Chimp nickname was used during his tenure and taking a bit of ownership of where to take this next. It's all a bit convenient to say Heretiers claims should be taken seriously but not to address what the issues were when he was coach. For instance he should comment on whether he knew of players calling Heretier Chimp but thought it benign or that he wasn't aware of it at all. That would be a good start is examining this with more leadership from those who were at the top at the time. Bucks and Eddie should similarly be leading the way here.

Totally agree with the above. This thread has come a long way, from the denial and hostility when we first heard Lumumba's claims to an increasing sense that there's some legitimacy to Lumumba's grievances. I'd like for the club to start making the same journey.

 

[Wackajack]

Interesting reading how some of stories don't quite line up with each other. I feel we have some very bitter, ex players/coaches that are still trying to get at the club (and Bucks) in anyway they can.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Totally agree with the above. This thread has come a long way, from the denial and hostility when we first heard Lumumba's claims to an increasing sense that there's some legitimacy to Lumumba's grievances. I'd like for the club to start making the same journey.

I think there's still a fair bit of doubt as to the gravity, frequency and nature of these claims.

 

[sideswipe]

I think Mick is being a bit disingenuous here really. You can interpret it as purely supporting H and talking about the breakdown between player and club being not during his time.

Buckley’s predecessor Mick Malthouse said Lumumba’s claims should be taken seriously.

“I’m very, very proud of Heritier,’’ Malthouse said on SEN.

But part of Heretiers claims are he was called Chimp for years and he describes Collingwood in his time as “a boys’ club for racist and sexist jokes”.

Leon also claims he came up against the same sort of thing while at Collingwood. So both these players are saying there were troubles while MM was coach also. If MM really wanted H's claims to be taken seriously rather than note part of it occurred off his time he should be saying he is dismayed to be hearing the Chimp nickname was used during his tenure and taking a bit of ownership of where to take this next. It's all a bit convenient to say Heretiers claims should be taken seriously but not to address what the issues were when he was coach. For instance he should comment on whether he knew of players calling Heretier Chimp but thought it benign or that he wasn't aware of it at all. That would be a good start is examining this with more leadership from those who were at the top at the time. Bucks and Eddie should similarly be leading the way here.

Somewhat agree. Thought AK put it best on SEN when he described "cultural ignorance" - people saying things they don't realise are extremely hurtful. It is a very divisive topic.

I dunno why Eddie, Bucks or MM can't simply cop to saying that if this happened on my watch, it is unacceptable and I am sorry. If that brings up someone bringing up something that happened which was more damning, such as one of them participating in said "ignorance", then so be it. Cop your whack.

And as far as Bucks/Eddie go, make a commitment to keep improving at Collingwood. Doesn't seem that hard - even if you disagree with HL's version of events. A blanket unconditional unqualified apology doesn't go to that question. But I guess the complicating factor might be HL's apparent "other issues", whatever they might be. So maybe there is more to it which is making people reluctant to go further?

Don't forget Leon copped being called something like "black as a dogs guts" by Rex Hunt - so there was plenty of sh-t going on elsewhere in the AFL and broader world.

Eddie lost me during the Goodes issue with what was either complete ignorance of the impact of his comments and/or his refusal to unconditionally apologise. So him going down the route of trying to play down/avoid the issue is disappointing but not surprising. But that being said, when it comes to glib, off the cuff passing comments which have a racist tone, well let he without sin cast the first stone...

As you say, some leadership on this would be good. Especially after last week.

 

[Countrypie]

No doubt Caro has been waiting for sometime to unload on Ed. she clearly has a major axe to grind with Ed and I understand she is going to let loose tonight again on Footy Classified as a follow up to her article.

I think she will be calling for Ed to step down.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

She probably will...but her views right or wrong will be water off a duck's back for Ed

 

[Countrypie]

Don't forget Leon copped being called something like "black as a dogs guts" by Rex Hunt - so there was plenty of sh-t going on elsewhere in the AFL and broader world.

Eddie lost me during the Goodes issue with what was either complete ignorance of the impact of his comments and/or his refusal to unconditionally apologise. So him going down the route of trying to play down/avoid the issue is disappointing but not surprising. But that being said, when it comes to glib, off the cuff passing comments which have a racist tone, well let he without sin cast the first stone...

As you say, some leadership on this would be good. Especially after last week.

Rex was terrible. I still remember him calling a great goal from Chris Lewis. Just plain pig ignorant and that's what a lot of this is - ignorance is stupid, hurtful but never mailicious

 

[left at home]

I see Mick is quoted as saying that these issues took place outside his time at the club. True or just him distancing himself from the blame?

Distancing himself. If Leon and krak Herd it, it happen at his time also.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

To put it simply, any response from the club will be viewed as not good enough by the likes of Wilson and co.
For those who are after a response, what exactly do you want to hear?

It's a situation where those accused either remain silent or speak out at the risk of addressing an audience that has already made up its mind. There won't be any player out there who would dare back the club culture under MM or Bucks in this instance.

 

[JB1975]

To put it simply, any response from the club will be viewed as not good enough by the likes of Wilson and co.
For those who are after a response, what exactly do you want to hear?

Well it's obvious, the club need to launch an immediate review...

More seriously, I'm not sure what the response should be. Thomastown Timmy is right in saying that the precise dimensions of the issue aren't known yet, so maybe we just need to establish that first and work out the rest later.

And you're right, FB, whatever Collingwood does will most likely be damned, but that shouldn't be a reason to not confront things.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

You mean a guy on $300-400k a year was donating $5~ to parking metres? What a saint!

I was bastard when I was I kid (many would say still am) but I used to go around pushing matchsticks in the coin slot to run the time out on metres.

A manouver I will forever now call a reverse Lumumba.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Well it's obvious, the club need to launch an immediate review...

More seriously, I'm not sure what the response should be. Thomastown Timmy is right in saying that the precise dimensions of the issue aren't known yet, so maybe we just need to establish that first and work out the rest later.

And you're right, FB, whatever Collingwood does will most likely be damned, but that shouldn't be a reason to not confront things.

We don't know what has happened behind closed doors and that's ok by me. Cant help but think that former players etc accused of the casual racism have called the club with their own versions of events and that has put the club in an awkward position.

Does the club openly come out in support of H's position and then ignore the other? What of those players who are feeling as though they have been unfairly tagged? Do they have the right to seek the support and hence public representation by the club?

It would be interesting to hear the answers to my last question. Should give us a good idea of the consequences of such actions.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Well it's obvious, the club need to launch an immediate review...

More seriously, I'm not sure what the response should be. Thomastown Timmy is right in saying that the precise dimensions of the issue aren't known yet, so maybe we just need to establish that first and work out the rest later.

And you're right, FB, whatever Collingwood does will most likely be damned, but that shouldn't be a reason to not confront things.

Why not just say that some racist or ignorant comments might have been made several years back by players, that there is no recent evidence of similar comments, and just issue an apology for what may have occurred. What is there to confront? The past? Collingwood Football Club are not specifically enough implicated to justify anything other than a contrite recognition of possible past sin. Say sorry and move on, but make sure the past is not repeated in the present.

 

[Black_White]

I was lying in my back in St Vincent's when the doco was on SBS, so I fell asleep.
(Actually I watched the F1 on the iPad)
Does H want anything from Collingwood? Apart from the acknowledgment that there have been cultural insensitivities that have been badly handled?
Does he want money? Does he want Ed's scalp? Does he want Bux scalp?
If it's the acknowledgement, then it's probably long overdue.
Collingwood history is littered with refusing to even recruit indigenous players. We have had a terrible relationship with our original citizens, despite the fact they have been big supporters of the club.
It's time we acknowledged that fact and worked harder to make our club all encompassing.
And, by his history of gaffs, that means we cannot move on until the President is gone.

 

[soreplums]

What did Krak and Leon say?

I thought I read that Maxwell said the 'Chimp' nickname came from a party trick by H using some bananas? Did I completely get that wrong?

 

[ThePhantom777]

Bit thin skinned in this instance IMO:
"But then, according to Lumumba, Buckley mocked his stand, which included Lumumba protesting at the nickname "Les" – short for lesbian – directed by players at teammate Paul Seedsman, following some subsequent jokes over Seedsman's haircut. "I had opened up my heart about being insecure, about being different ...""
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ood-for-heritier-lumumba-20170818-gxz5ea.html