Malthouse V Buckley

[doppleganger]

Face facts your club under Malthouse has underacheived. Now Buckley is the man to take over a group full of blokes hes abused and belittled during his playing days and bagged during his media days.Ha ha good luck with that.

Underachieved.......most people reckon the pies have never had a good list, and have 'played above themselves' whatever that means??

Plenty of oppo supporters say that MM has got everything out of an average list.

Yet you are saying MM has wasted a brilliant list, and underachieved??

Could you point out which year the pies were the best team in the comp, and which premierships they should have won???

Clearly you aint watched N.Buckley since he was captain if you think he bagged and belittled players.

 

[Damon_3388]

There his players and after so long in the job the list is all his. This hes done well with that list line is crap. He recruited what you see out there. Hes had a minimum of 12 top 15 picks in his time at Collingwood. So hes hardly been disadvantaged.

Well is your issue with Malthouse or the recruiters? Anyway, regardless of who put the list together, Malhouse has done the best he could with what he's had to work with IMO.

Similarly to what doppleganger said, in which years do you think we "underachieved" and missed out on a Premiership? Even in 2002/03 when we made back-to-back Grand Finals, I thought we were lucky to be there. We haven't had the best list in the league at any point during Malthouse's tenure (we were positively average on paper between 2000-2005), so I don't really see where we could have done better with the players we've had over the past decade.

 

[NOCHANCE]

Very funny this best out of a poor list excuse. For frig sake thats the point on Malthouse, hes had apparently more money and resourses to assemble a list and been given more time than any other coach to do so. Yet Collingwood supporters and members are apparently happy with how hes performed. If asking and pointing out the obvious is trolling well fair enough, but perhaps maybe you should have played a few games yourselves and got involved in how clubs work rather than sheltering amongst your own supporters on an internet forum.

 

[FuManchu]

Very funny this best out of a poor list excuse. For frig sake thats the point on Malthouse, hes had apparently more money and resourses to assemble a list and been given more time than any other coach to do so. Yet Collingwood supporters and members are apparently happy with how hes performed. If asking and pointing out the obvious is trolling well fair enough, but perhaps maybe you should have played a few games yourselves and got involved in how clubs work rather than sheltering amongst your own supporters on an internet forum.

Not everyone thinks malthouse is worth his chop. For mine, I think he ran his race by the end of 2004.

To be around the mark in 2006, 07, 08, 09 but never take it that step further is just not good enough. You only get so many years in the premiership window of opportunity but malthouse's philosophies in list management, recruiting and game plan will always see you therabouts, but never quite good enough in this day and age. And the worst part of hovering close to the top, but never getting there is that you also lose the opportunities to regenerate the list with better drafts that you get if you go into the rise and fall most other clubs go into.

 

[FuManchu]

Well is your issue with Malthouse or the recruiters? Anyway, regardless of who put the list together, Malhouse has done the best he could with what he's had to work with IMO.

Similarly to what doppleganger said, in which years do you think we "underachieved" and missed out on a Premiership? Even in 2002/03 when we made back-to-back Grand Finals, I thought we were lucky to be there. We haven't had the best list in the league at any point during Malthouse's tenure (we were positively average on paper between 2000-2005), so I don't really see where we could have done better with the players we've had over the past decade.

The list is solely his resposibility.

Its his recruiting team, its his recruiting priorities, its his team of talent scouts, its his training and game plan that he he imposes on the list.

Everything that effects onfield performance falls squarely on his shoulders. If we have had poor lists, then its all his doing. He could blame the previous coaching regime for the first 2 years, but after that its all his responsibility, especially when he recruited with short term success in mind after 2000.

 

[Gone Critical]

I have been happy with MM and am excited by the prospect of he and Buckley teaming together for the next 5 seasons. Its a bold concept Collingwood are aiming at with their new coaching arrangement . While there are risks involved if it comes off it may prove a masterstroke.

No Chance is obviously trolling here and has little knowledge of how Collingwood runs. Buckley since he has been in the media has supported Didak, has rated Davis as the hardest trainer at the club in his last 2 seasons, was a long time teammate of Fraser and saw him carry the ruck division from a very young age. Medhurst's 2009 was dogged by injury but 2008 saw him AA and his biggest transformation in his game has been his team ethic and forward line pressure. Buckley would have all these guys figured in part of his team unless Fraser succumbs to his chronic injuries

MM has currently put together the most exciting young list I have seen at Collingwood since the team developed in the late 1980's that snagged a flag in 1990. I agree the list at Collingwood prior to this has never been top notch and Mick got more out of it than could have been reasonably expected. I have always been a realist not an overrater but I think we are in a different spot list wise now than we have been for a long time. The works not finishrd though but Jolly /Ball are capable of fixing the 2 biggest holes in our list so we should improve significantly in 2010 because of this and natural improvement in our young list.

I think we will content strongly in the next few seasons and will be unhappy not to win at least 1 flag through this time. When MM hands the list to Buckley it will be strong and Bucks may claim a flag in his 1st season

As to Buckleys attitude to his fellow players, its no secret he was too hard on them early in his career and worked hard to rebalance this. He became a great Capain and leader who was admired and loved by his players

So No chance i think there is no chance you know anything other than a few old regurgitated gutter rumours about the Pies and your bias are on full display

I am very happy you hate the Pies as keenly as you do. But with 2 premierships in 3 years I would be enjoying the view from the top instead of leaking bitter jaundiced trolls. Maybe your a guy /girl who cant enjoy the good times and secretly yearns for the bad times so things could be out of whack for you currently

 

[wicksy]

Very funny this best out of a poor list excuse. For frig sake thats the point on Malthouse, hes had apparently more money and resourses to assemble a list and been given more time than any other coach to do so. Yet Collingwood supporters and members are apparently happy with how hes performed. If asking and pointing out the obvious is trolling well fair enough, but perhaps maybe you should have played a few games yourselves and got involved in how clubs work rather than sheltering amongst your own supporters on an internet forum.

HAHAHAHA Are we supposed to believe you're some famous ex player are we? Just cause you go down and sit your fat arse in Skilled Stadium does not mean you know any more about OUR club.

How many threads have you started about Collingwood?
Do you have some sort of infatuation with our club?

The reality is, is that noone cares what you think anymore because you're a proven troll. I have an opinion regarding the OP and it probably differs to yours but the fact of the matter is, is that you start a thread which you know will incite the black and white masses just for your own enjoyment.

Anything with your name next to it belongs in the Bay!

 

[Pessimistic]

It's win win for MM. get his cash matter what.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Might just get in before the thread goes into lockdown.

I've always been a massive fan of Nathan Buckley. Particularly as a player, but also as an astute football brain. I reckon I've stated in at least a handful of posts over the years how much I would've loved to have Buckley as the next coach of Richmond, and that whoever did eventually snaffle him will have got themselves a fine servant. I’ve always believed that he is a leader of men, an intelligent, articulate and inspirational character.

I still stand by those sentiments – Collingwood have done really well tying him down for the next 5 years (and probably beyond) and if I were a Maggie fan I'd be totally delighted with the arrangements Eddie McGuire has managed to put in place. They’re in for some good times.

However, from someone who's always admired Buckley's apparent intrinsic drive to be the best, and get the best out of himself, I've got to say that I'm pretty disappointed with his decision to just stay on at Collingwood. I’m also a little surprised at his decision to just stick inside his comfort zone. I've always viewed him as being a little different from the prototype football person, who just goes with the flow of what's expected of him.

Don't get me wrong – I believe he will be successful. He will have almost infinite resources at his disposal, unmatched facilities, great support, an excellent list to begin with, a massive salary, and will most likely enjoy the Premiership success during his coaching tenure that eluded him as a Collingwood player. That might well be enough for him.

Yet what Buckley will now never probably know was whether he would have been one of those really great coaches who could turn a bunch of perennial losers into a cohesive club of sustained winners. One of those rare blokes who could take a team that had struggled to play any meaningful role in Finals to the absolute top. Hafey (Richmond), Sheedy (Essendon), Pagan (North), Blight (Adelaide), Matthews (Brisbane) all did it – took clubs with no recent (or even distant) winning culture or success to the pinnacle and kept them there for an extended period. Each of these legendary coaches went to relatively unfamiliar locations, completely discarded whatever had been previously instituted at that organization, and constructed a club in their own image. Despite same hiccups at other clubs since achieving their major feats, history will view them all as the real deal.

I actually feel a little sorry for Bucks. If he doesn’t enjoy Premiership success during the first 3 years at the helm, he’ll be copping it from many directions for squandering the foundation put in place by Malthouse, McGuire etc. However, if he does enjoy Premiership success during the first 3 years, he’ll have Mick Malthouse still there peering over his shoulder, probably taking a fair helping of the plaudits for laying that groundwork and underpinning the whole operation. Collingwood will still be viewed by many as Malthouse’s baby, and that Premiership success under Buckley as head coach was merely a manifestation of the long-term foundation established by Mick Malthouse and his team. Make no mistake about it, his (Mick’s) legacy will be a powerful and enduring force over those 3 years, and maybe even beyond.

However, if Buckley had gone to North or Richmond, he would’ve had the opportunity to fashion the whole club and the whole culture in his own model. If he could’ve turned around fortunes of the latter, the entire football community would be in awe of his capabilities. If he’d been able to turn around fortunes of the former, the football and business communities would be in awe of his capabilities. Now I suspect we’ll never know how great a manager of men Bucks could’ve been.

 

[doppleganger]

Great post, but too long to quote.

Will just point out, that the job of turning Collingwood back into a premiership winning force is enormous!!

As plenty of people point out, one flag in 50 odd years.

It wont be an easy ride at all for Bucks.

 

[Gone Critical]

Yet what Buckley will now never probably know was whether he would have been one of those really great coaches who could turn a bunch of perennial losers into a cohesive club of sustained winners. One of those rare blokes who could take a team that had struggled to play any meaningful role in Finals to the absolute top. Hafey (Richmond), Sheedy (Essendon), Pagan (North), Blight (Adelaide), Matthews (Brisbane) all did it – took clubs with no recent (or even distant) winning culture or success to the pinnacle and kept them there for an extended period. Each of these legendary coaches went to relatively unfamiliar locations, completely discarded whatever had been previously instituted at that organization, and constructed a club in their own image. Despite same hiccups at other clubs since achieving their major feats, history will view them all as the real deal.

.

V interesting post

When I read Buckleys book last year he descibed the ideal coaching pathway as play at one club, assist at another then head coach at a 3rd. So he has broken from that idea.

I think he sees himself as a strong Collingwood person and has unfinsihed business. He wants to be part of a Collingwood premiership.

Dont be suprised if he spreads his wings and looks at other challenges later in his coaching career.

In the examples you list above both Matthews and Blight were long term coaches before they arrived at the clubs you mention. Although you could add 1990 Collingwood to Matthews as another example of what you are talking about

Also in the examples Hafey, Sheedy and Pagan were more in a position of "I will take any job offered" rather than having the option to pick and choose their club. They didnt forgo the option of taking over a successful team and going with the bigger challenge.

In coaching it is wise to go where the cattle are because the best coach cant make something out of nothing. In your examples the coaches came to the clubs coincidently at the same time as a band of young guys who turned into champions (Adelaide to a lesser degree than the others) Sometimes a lot of its in the timing.

 

[Perry Pie]

I think its time for the pies to move on from MM. I would have liked this year to be the change. If we dont take the flag in 10 we should certainly make the change sooner rather than later.
MM will not go to West Sydney as suggested in an earlier post, Sheedy has sorted Thompson out for that job in 2012. Sheedy is just the caretaker waiting for Ablett and Thompson to pick up the fat cheques of West Sydney

 

[CaptainChardonnay]

FWIW (And being a Sydney supporter my opinion counts for jack in all things Collingwood), I think MM will be under a lot of pressure if the team fails to do as well, or better this year. A PF will be the very least he will need to aspire to. Otherwise, some of the Collingwood "faithful" may very well accelarate operation Buckley are year or two. And with the team he now has, a top flight ruck man and a classy midfielder added since 09, if he took them to a PF last year, he should go all the way to the GF this year.

Oh yeah, and just because Eddie says it, doesn't make it so.

 

[Caj]

Yes we realise he hasn't won us a flag yet, thats why his senior coaching tenure expires in 2 years. Judge him after that

He's been a failure for 10 years yet still gets another 2 year extention to his contract??

I'd argue it's less difficult to adjust to a new coach when
a) you know it's coming and How exactly?
b) he's already an assistant at the club Possibly true, but also has the potential to cause other problems
c) he's by far the greatest coach in waiting in the league and the best/smartest/diligent midfielder of the last 50 years

LOL this is one of the funniest posts I've read in ages

How do you know he's the greatest coach in waiting? A great player does not always transform to a great coach. Tim Watson, Royce Hart or dare I say it Tony Shawbeing good examples.

He's not even a shoe in to be the best midfielder in the last 10 years, let alone 50!!!

 

[Jay-Z]

Yes we realise he hasn't won us a flag yet, thats why his senior coaching tenure expires in 2 years. Judge him after that

I'd argue it's less difficult to adjust to a new coach when
a) you know it's coming and
b) he's already an assistant at the club
c) he's by far the greatest coach in waiting in the league and the best/smartest/diligent midfielder of the last 50 years

I beg your pardon... How old are you?

 

[Territory Magpie]

LOL this is one of the funniest posts I've read in ages

How do you know he's the greatest coach in waiting? A great player does not always transform to a great coach. Tim Watson, Royce Hart or dare I say it Tony Shawbeing good examples.

He's not even a shoe in to be the best midfielder in the last 10 years, let alone 50!!!

Sorry, Shawy was very blue collar and a hard-worker, but hardly an elite or great player. Poor example in trying to make your point. What about Ted Whitten? He was elite as a player and a damn fine playing coach for the doggies.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Collingwood have had priority picks under Malthouse.

They changed the Priority Pick rules after MM and Collingwood in 2004.

 

[bucksisbest]

Might just get in before the thread goes into lockdown....

Your disapointment seems to stem from Buckley seeing himself as a Collingwood person , rather than a career football person like the others.

 

[Damon_3388]

Just something else - if we've underachieved in the past decade, then so have:

• Adelaide
• Carlton
• Fremantle
• Melbourne
• North Melbourne
• Richmond
• St Kilda
• Western Bulldogs

None of those clubs won a Premiership between 2000-2009 either. What's their "excuse"? What makes us so special that we need to be singled out for scrutiny?

 

[Caj]

Just something else - if we've underachieved in the past decade, then so have:

• Adelaide
• Carlton
• Fremantle
• Melbourne
• North Melbourne
• Richmond
• St Kilda
• Western Bulldogs

None of those clubs won a Premiership between 2000-2009 either. What's their "excuse"? What makes us so special that we need to be singled out for scrutiny?

None of those clubs have had the same unsuccessful coach for the last 10 years. Each of their boards could see that the incumbent wasn't capable of leading their team to a premiership. Thankfully for the other 15 clubs, Collingwood have chose to retain Malthouse for another 2 years

 

[irukandji]

You know why? Perhaps because As a more general note, whatever players Buckley favours would surely be privy to more game time whilst he is waiting in the wings. Meaning Mick's influence may well wain starting from this season. Poor results this season (which I highly doubt) could see Mick and Bucks switch roles next year? Perhaps?

Don't bet on it. Collingwood have thrown the kitchen sink at MM's quest for a flag in his last two years - the recruiting of Jolly, Ball and S.Buckley may prove to be a topping-up master stroke. It's indicative MM will have his way in this period.

The Magpie list Buckley inherits will be weaker for this strategy, particularly considering that at least the next 2 drafts are going to be highly compromised and not deliver much to clubs who finish at the top end of the ladder. The list is going to erode over Mick's last 2 years - if he delivers a flag then everyone at Collingwood will be happy. If not there'll be some tears and rebuilding to do.

 

[McOrist]

Sorry, Shawy was very blue collar and a hard-worker, but hardly an elite or great player. Poor example in trying to make your point. What about Ted Whitten? He was elite as a player and a damn fine playing coach for the doggies.

What??

I think you have your ideas back to front.

Tony Shaw -twice Copeland Trophy winner; club games record holder; inspirational captain and Norm Smith medalist of last premiership team. I'll take (and agree with) criticism of Shawry as a coach, but to say he wasn't a great player is like saying Didak can't kick with his left foot -it's just plain wrong.

Where did the idea of Ted Whitten being a 'damn fine coach' come from? He coached them for 13 years -they made the finals once.

 

[Damon_3388]

None of those clubs have had the same unsuccessful coach for the last 10 years. Each of their boards could see that the incumbent wasn't capable of leading their team to a premiership. Thankfully for the other 15 clubs, Collingwood have chose to retain Malthouse for another 2 years

Well the other clubs have still not picked the right coaches and players then if they still haven't had success despite their "enlightened" boards, and have therefore all underachieved by not winning a Premiership.

If Malthouse coaching Collingwood is so good for other clubs (we're apparently certain never to see the ultimate success with him at the helm), then why do other club's supporters care so much to make threads like this?

 

[Tex200]

Well the other clubs have still not picked the right coaches and players then if they still haven't had success despite their "enlightened" boards, and have therefore all underachieved by not winning a Premiership.

If Malthouse coaching Collingwood is so good for other clubs (we're apparently certain never to see the ultimate success with him at the helm), then why do other club's supporters care so much to make threads like this?

Who knows..probably the same reason your mob seems to like starting threads about our club.

I think the reason so many think Collingwood underachieve is they get so much advantage, particularly with the draw. Now before you all sceam yes I know thats financially driven and all clubs want to play you at the G and its all our own fault...blah blah. But the fact remains if Adelaide had 16 or 17 games a year at AAMI or WCE had the same at Sooby and we could then play the prelim and granny at home also, we might just have done better over the journey. Not guaranteed of course.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Has Mick Malthouse outstayed his welcome at Collingwood? Going into the 2010 season he is the longest serving coach without a premiership in the league. Has he under acheived with the resources that he apparently has at his dispoasal? .

Q1. No. He hasnt outtayed his welcome. But he is nearing retirement age and the Pies have thought of an inventive and progressive succession plan.

Q2. You tell me. Do you think he underachieved in 2002/3 with the likes of Mckee, Kinnear, McGough, J Cloke, Steinfort, Walker, Lonie, Cole, Lokan, R Shaw, Woewoedin, Molloy, Scotland , Betheras, Freeborn and others at his disposal??? The 02/03 GF sides were amongst the worst GF teams of the entire decade. Only a coach of Malthouse's calibre would have got them as far as they made it.

Its taken many years for the list to rebuild and now its as good as its ever been in MAthouse's time as coach.