Malthouse V Buckley

[BigSledge]

Just something else - if we've underachieved in the past decade, then so have:

• Adelaide
• Carlton
• Fremantle
• Melbourne
• North Melbourne
• Richmond
• St Kilda
• Western Bulldogs

None of those clubs won a Premiership between 2000-2009 either. What's their "excuse"? What makes us so special that we need to be singled out for scrutiny?

As a crows support I can say without a shadow of a doubt that we underachieved during the last decade. Mostly due to mediocre drafting & trading choices during Ayres rain of terror in the early part of the decade.

St Kilda supporters would probably agree that they underachieved after last year and the bulldogs as well but their times might come this year.

As for Collingwood they may have in some ways overachieved by making the grand final in 02/03 because there was a very strong Port team (shudders) that just couldn't stand up in finals. But the lack of success over a decade probably means the underachieved as a whole.

 

[Falchoon]

Fraser Didak Thomas Pendlebury Reid and N Brown are the only top ten picks on the list. Only one priority pick. And Reid was picked up via a trade so he doesnt count because we had to give away a quality player to get him.

I count 2

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Agree 100% with what you are saying but didnt want to get caught up in people posting unless you win the flag you fail. Its a cop out to measure flags as the only measure of success.

But as a Collingwood fan I leave myself open to claims of accepting 50 yrs of mediocraty if I put that into a reply. Happy to debate that elsewhere but didnt want to get sidetracked here

I don't think we need any kind of debate, GC. We're pretty much aligned on most things except whether black and yellow is a better combination of colours than black and white.

Did Gary Ablett coach a side for 10 years without winning a flag?

Coaching success and playing success are different, players are reliant on the team around them, the structures in place, coaching methods, fitness staff, game plans ect.

All of which the head coach is responsible for!

A player can be a success without a flag through other means BnF, Norm smiths, BL, MVP, Coleman ect ect.

A flag is team success, not individual player success.

Firstly, a coach is an individual too. He has very little control over injuries, fixtures and the legacy of the previous coach.

He has minimal control over the quality of the medical team, the quality of draft choices selected, training facilities and opposition motivation on any given day.

In a perfect world, a coach would be able to intill a winning mindset into his players on game day, would have quality input from his henchmen in the box, flawless intelligence on opposition team's preparation, and a medical team that could patch up injured players and get them back out in a hurry. But all of these factors are dependent on other individuals also doing their job.

Fact is, the coach provides a blueprint and a foundation. For the most part, the rest of it depends on other people doing their jobs. Sure the coach has a part in selecting who these other individuals are in his team, but on any given day he has only limited control over their performance. There is a fair dependence on good fortune playing its part.

Hell, Allan Joyce is a Premiership coach!

 

[Gone Critical]

Dude, if you think the position of my team has any bearing on my observations, you're after the wrong poster.

As I said elsewhere, from above or below a turkey is a turkey.

Here is a witty observation I made earlier

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107732

Fair enough

 

[collingwill]

Has Mick Malthouse outstayed his welcome at Collingwood? Going into the 2010 season he is the longest serving coach without a premiership in the league. Has he under acheived with the resources that he apparently has at his dispoasal?

Also with Buckley set to take over what sort of emotions are running through the minds of some of the players he played with? Its no secret his attitude to some of these players was less than favourable. Surely these blokes know the writings on the wall for them at seasons end. Buckley will be keen to stamp his own game plan and rules and players like Davis Didak Fraser Medhurst may find themselves out the door. Time will tell but interesting times ahead as he takes the reins.

how bouts we add the best 2 father sons in the history of the game and then see how many flags malthouse wouldve won, because dude, everyone knows without ablett, scarlett and to a lesser extent hawkins, you wouldnt have won shit.

10 yrs coaching without a flag isnt a failure, on average a team should win a flag every 15 yrs, the guy went within 8 points of the flag in 02 against the greatset team we've ever seen (modern), he beat the lions in the 1st 03 final only to lose rocca for the final (suspended), he went within 5 points of the 07 flag IMO (without 1 AA player, compared to your 8), add to that another prelim and a couple of other finals apearances and id say he's done a remarkable job, buts its great to see you taking such an interest in our team.

so lets go back to 07, that game couldve gone either way, only a complete muppet would say otherwise, if the ball bounced our way we would have one flag and you would have one flag, so IMO 5 points is all that seperates malthouse from bomber, and because of that 5 points bomber has 2 flags and malthouse has none, hardly a lot between them when you look at it like that.

if malthouse didnt earn the respect of the cats supporters in 07 he never will.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

so IMO 5 points is all that seperates malthouse from bomber, and because of that 5 points bomber has 2 flags and malthouse has none, hardly a lot between them when you look at it like that.

Your O is one of an uninformed and short-sighted tragic, IMO

 

[loki04]

As a crows support I can say without a shadow of a doubt that we underachieved during the last decade. Mostly due to mediocre drafting & trading choices during Ayres rain of terror in the early part of the decade.

St Kilda supporters would probably agree that they underachieved after last year and the bulldogs as well but their times might come this year.

As for Collingwood they may have in some ways overachieved by making the grand final in 02/03 because there was a very strong Port team (shudders) that just couldn't stand up in finals. But the lack of success over a decade probably means the underachieved as a whole.

In 03 we were clearly the 2nd best team over the season port were 1st and we weren't far behind them. Ditto in the finals that year clearly 2nd this time to a bigger and stronger lions side.

 

[loki04]

how bouts we add the best 2 father sons in the history of the game and then see how many flags malthouse wouldve won, because dude, everyone knows without ablett, scarlett and to a lesser extent hawkins, you wouldnt have won shit.

10 yrs coaching without a flag isnt a failure, on average a team should win a flag every 15 yrs, the guy went within 8 points of the flag in 02 against the greatset team we've ever seen (modern), he beat the lions in the 1st 03 final only to lose rocca for the final (suspended), he went within 5 points of the 07 flag IMO (without 1 AA player, compared to your 8), add to that another prelim and a couple of other finals apearances and id say he's done a remarkable job, buts its great to see you taking such an interest in our team.

so lets go back to 07, that game couldve gone either way, only a complete muppet would say otherwise, if the ball bounced our way we would have one flag and you would have one flag, so IMO 5 points is all that seperates malthouse from bomber, and because of that 5 points bomber has 2 flags and malthouse has none, hardly a lot between them when you look at it like that.

if malthouse didnt earn the respect of the cats supporters in 07 he never will.

In 07 Geelongs poor kicking kept us in it, had they kicked some of the gettable goals we would of lost by 5 goals not points. In saying that 30 seconds longer and we may have been in the GFbecuase we had our tails up and were storming home.

 

[collingwill]

Your O is one of an uninformed and short-sighted tragic, IMO

well which part is wrong dude?

 

[Kipz]

 

[collingwill]

In 07 Geelongs poor kicking kept us in it, had they kicked some of the gettable goals we would of lost by 5 goals not points. In saying that 30 seconds longer and we may have been in the GFbecuase we had our tails up and were storming home.

im not trying to take any gloss of the cats GF wins, but when a muppet cats supporter comes out and says malthouse has been a failure i take great offense to that, 02 03 we shouldve gone back to back, only the salery cap stopped than from happening IMO.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Firstly, a coach is an individual too. He has very little control over injuries, fixtures and the legacy of the previous coach.

He has minimal control over the quality of the medical team, the quality of draft choices selected, training facilities and opposition motivation on any given day.

This O, too is an irrelevant (although somewhat accurate) one.

MM had access to the best of everything at Collingwood as evidenced by the clubs huge spending on the various departments, hence its irrelevance.

He definately has control over the draft choices selected however (if he so chooses) - and noone has control over their quality - therefore the buck stops with the coach.

Opposition motivation is another unknown and somewhat irrelevant. Nobody gets motivated to beat the Bulldogs (let's just say) so why don't they have 38 flags. Collingwood certainly would suffer from this though!

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

well which part is wrong dude?

Why would you have been given a premiership for winning the preliminary final? It would be the first time in history that this has happened.

 

[collingwill]

Why would you have been given a premiership for winning the preliminary final? It would be the first time in history that this has happened.

well the cats demolished the power in the final, 100 + points i think, i dont think its a very big stretch to say we wouldve won that game.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

im not trying to take any gloss of the cats GF wins, but when a muppet cats supporter comes out and says malthouse has been a failure i take great offense to that, 02 03 we shouldve gone back to back, only the salery cap stopped than from happening IMO.

Why? Geelong managed to create a side that did win two cups even in spite of salary cap concessions to other clubs - What is the difference. West Coast and Port managed to grab one as well (as far as I understand it)

 

[collingwill]

This O, too is an irrelevant (although somewhat accurate) one.

MM had access to the best of everything at Collingwood as evidenced by the clubs huge spending on the various departments, hence its irrelevance.

He definately has control over the draft choices selected however (if he so chooses) - and noone has control over their quality - therefore the buck stops with the coach.

Opposition motivation is another unknown and somewhat irrelevant. Nobody gets motivated to beat the Bulldogs (let's just say) so why don't they have 38 flags. Collingwood certainly would suffer from this though!

he was advised by judkins (gone) and now hines, they watch the u18 games, malthouse doesnt, he can only go on what he's told.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

well the cats demolished the power in the final, 100 + points i think, i dont think its a very big stretch to say we wouldve won that game.

That is absolute rubbish. The Power made it to a Grand Final and you did not, therefore they were arguably the better side than you. They also finished above you on the ladder(IIRC), therefore showing their consistency over the whole season. There is nothing to suggest any other team would've beaten them by any margin, and there is even less to suggest that if they had played Geelong the following week, Geelong would've won that match.

 

[collingwill]

lets say theres 2 salesmen, salesman A is selling chocolate, salesman B is selling dried up bits of shit, salesman A sells 10 chocolates and salesman B sells 5 pieces of shit, whos the better salesman?

coach A has 8 AA players, coach B has 0, coach A wins the game by 5 points, whos the better coach?

 

[collingwill]

That is absolute rubbish. The Power made it to a Grand Final and you did not, therefore they were arguably the better side than you. They also finished above you on the ladder(IIRC), therefore showing their consistency over the whole season. There is nothing to suggest any other team would've beaten them by any margin, and there is even less to suggest that if they had played Geelong the following week, Geelong would've won that match.

look numnut, if you think port wouldve beaten us in the final then thats your opinion, not many people with half a brain would agree with it, i reckon even the OP would agree with me on that.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

look numnut, if you think port wouldve beaten us in the final then thats your opinion, not many people with half a brain would agree with it, i reckon even the OP would agree with me on that.

Haha, personal insults.

I'm not suggesting either team would've won, I'm suggesting there's as much evidence to suggest Port would've won as to say Collingwood would've won.

I'm not sure how old you are, but do you know where the term 'Colliwobbles' originated from?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I count 2

My error, no need to shout though

Nevertheless the number of top ten picks Malthouse has at his disposal is no higher than any other club.

 

[collingwill]

Haha, personal insults.

I'm not suggesting either team would've won, I'm suggesting there's as much evidence to suggest Port would've won as to say Collingwood would've won.

I'm not sure how old you are, but do you know where the term 'Colliwobbles' originated from?

well we ran Geelong to 5 points one week, then the next week geelong destroyed PA by 20 odd goals, if you were to have a dollar on who wouldve won out of collingwood/port who would you back?

it isnt the first or last time the 2 best teams faced off in the prelim pal.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

My goodness.

Pal, Malthouse was not "5 points away" from being as successful as Bomber Thomson.

If I were to have a bet on a match that never existed, I would be an absolute moron.
Who would take the bet?

However, do you know where the term 'Colliwobbles' originated from?

 

[Caj]

of course it matters where you finished when you make hysterical comments about the other 15 clubs being thankful. you're memory isn't that bad.


Um Ok whatever you say

ooooh yes, you sure showed me. 6 points, not 5. oooh way to lay down the smack, that changes everything - ps. they lost by 5 points.

Yes genius they did lose by 5 points, hence they were 6 points away from a GF appearance. I thought this was relevant considering you were questioning my facts

and again, regarding your alzheimers, your comment was that after 7 years they're still miles away which is factually untrue. in fact they have made the prelim 2 of the last 3 years.

They got smashed by 80 points in the prelim, are you suggesting they were close to the mark?

I'd try and block out the memories too if I made such silly comments.

Huh??

blah blah blah.... let me correct your woefully misguided assertions once again: have they advanced? yes. so what's your point, do you have one?

Nice retort, this doesnt even make sense

 

[Falchoon]

how bouts we add the best 2 father sons in the history of the game and then see how many flags malthouse wouldve won, because dude, everyone knows without ablett, scarlett and to a lesser extent hawkins, you wouldnt have won shit.

We'd be happy with Shaw and Cloke