Mandatory Vaccinations And Medical Exemptions

[MisterMarcus]

Lol. Really not even worth a considered response.

Fair enough. Most debates with anti-vaxxers usually end up with some variation of this "I can't be bothered responding to your points!" argument when they get called out.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Fair enough. Most debates with anti-vaxxers usually end up with some variation of this "I can't be bothered responding to your points!" argument when they get called out.

Yep they are typical. Bunch of nutters really. You can only laugh at their reasoning I guess.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I just can’t wait for the whinging when it comes in lol

 

[Run n Spread]

No one is forcing anyone to be vaccinated. However there are consequences if you don’t and they may range from employment to being able to fly. I’ll say this straight out I’d want every passenger and staff to be vaccinated on a plane! You want to not be vaccinated be my guest there will be things you are prevented in doing. However that is your choice.

So if you are on a plane and vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you?
This is one point of the whole debate no one has explained:

A vaccine offers the recipient protection. How than are the unvaccinated a threat of passing on a virus the vaccinated are vaccinated against?
(Unless they are not effective which renders the debate moot)

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So if you are on a plane and vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you?
This is one point of the whole debate no one has explained:

A vaccine offers the recipient protection. How than are the unvaccinated a threat of passing on a virus the vaccinated are vaccinated against?
(Unless they are not effective which renders the debate moot)

Why should I pay thousands of dollars for a flight and have unvaxxed people on the plane? Flying is a luxury not a right.

 

[Run n Spread]

Why should I pay thousands of dollars for a flight and have unvaxxed people on the plane? Flying is a luxury not a right.

You're not answering the question.

How is an unvaccinated person a threat to a vaccinated person?

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

If Dustin Martin refuses to get a vaccine, will he be sacked and prevented from playing?

 

[master bate]

So if you are on a plane and vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you?
This is one point of the whole debate no one has explained:

A vaccine offers the recipient protection. How than are the unvaccinated a threat of passing on a virus the vaccinated are vaccinated against?
(Unless they are not effective which renders the debate moot)

A) Unvaccinated people spread covid a lot - especially delta.
Vaccinated spread covid a little.

B) The vaccine isn't perfect. It's mostly but not absolutely effective at preventing severe disease.

When you put A + B together you end up in a scenario where the best way to protect everyone is by keeping the unvaccinated away from the vaccinated, who will both spread the virus a lot less and be reasonably well protected. That's the logical thing to do.

The illogical conclusion is to say the vaccine doesn't prevent all spread and the vaccine doesn't prevent all severe disease so let's just completely ignore the vaccine or ignore the difference between those who have made themselves and the community safer and those who haven't.

It's like saying we won't ever stop bushfires so why bother with total firebans and fire plans. The vaccinated are people who have enacted their fire plan and cleared the trees and rubbish from around their houses and installed a sprinkler system. The unvaccinated are their neighbours who have littered their backyard with dead tree branches and are cooking on an open flame.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

You're not answering the question.

How is an unvaccinated person a threat to a vaccinated person?

Actually I am. Why should I even have to deal with anti vaxxer nut jobs.Flying anywhere is a luxury.

I don’t have any concern attracting the virus as I am vaxxed but that is beside the point.

 

[faible]

Yep - anti-vaxxers who concentrate on their own 'freedoms' have zero consideration for the majority of people who also want certain freedoms as well.

I wonder what happens when two Sovereign Citizens are at odds with what they wish to do with their freedums?

 

[Run n Spread]

Actually I am. Why should I even have to deal with anti vaxxer nut jobs.Flying anywhere is a luxury.

I don’t have any concern attracting the virus as I am vaxxed but that is beside the point.

That is entirely the point. You are protected thus serving its purpose. Who cares how others live?
Hell I'd rather not sit next to insert whatever personal gripe but that is besides the point.

You are admitting it isn't about health but your personal preference on who you'd like to deal with.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

That is entirely the point. You are protected thus serving its purpose. Who cares how others live?
Hell I'd rather not sit next to insert whatever personal gripe but that is besides the point.

You are admitting it isn't about health but your personal preference on who you'd like to deal with.

Of course it is jeez but I shouldn’t pay upwards of 5-8 grand and have to sit next to an anti vaxxer nut job.

Some things in life are luxuries flying is one.

 

[Run n Spread]

A) Unvaccinated people spread covid a lot - especially delta.
Vaccinated spread covid a little.

B) The vaccine isn't perfect. It's mostly but not absolutely effective at preventing severe disease.

When you put A + B together you end up in a scenario where the best way to protect everyone is by keeping the unvaccinated away from the vaccinated, who will both spread the virus a lot less and be reasonably well protected. That's the logical thing to do.

The illogical conclusion is to say the vaccine doesn't prevent all spread and the vaccine doesn't prevent all severe disease so let's just completely ignore the vaccine or ignore the difference between those who have made themselves and the community safer and those who haven't.

It's like saying we won't ever stop bushfires so why bother with total firebans and fire plans. The vaccinated are people who have enacted their fire plan and cleared the trees and rubbish from around their houses and installed a sprinkler system. The unvaccinated are their neighbours who have littered their backyard with dead tree branches and are cooking on an open flame.

That's not the conclusion I'm making. Nothing is perfect or foolproof.
The point of the vaccinated is to offer them some protection.

The people who have cleared a path around their home have done what is possible to protect themselves from a likely threat of living in the bush.
What you are saying is you want to march into your neighbors house and run their property.

Now to the vaccines.
Covid is a risk. Yes Like all viruses. So to are vaccines. Up to each individual to assess circumstance and decide their choice.

Covid now like a bushfire is inevitable. By calling for mandatory vaccines you want to make the decision for others on how they best protect themselves but have them assume all the risk.

 

[HairyO]

If Dustin Martin refuses to get a vaccine, will he be sacked and prevented from playing?

If there is a rule requiring it. Or he could be like the NRL player last year when QLD made flu vaccines a requirement for games to be played there and claim that one time when he was 15 he had an injection and remembered getting a headache from it... after he had originally said he was refusing based on non-medical grounds and was told that if he didnt have a medical reason he would be banned.

The NRL and QLD govt were very happy to sign off on it then. Because he clearly made a compelling case.

 

[Run n Spread]

Of course it is jeez but I shouldn’t pay upwards of 5-8 grand and have to sit next to an anti vaxxer nut job.

Some things in life are luxuries flying is one.

Shit I don't like sitting next to those who voted Tony Abbott, Daniel Andrews supporters or Essendon supporters. Nut you make do. You are paying for a service or product not to have everyone fit your world views.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

If there is a rule requiring it. Or he could be like the NRL player last year when QLD made flu vaccines a requirement for games to be played there and claim that one time when he was 15 he had an injection and remembered getting a headache from it... after he had originally said he was refusing based on non-medical grounds and was told that if he didnt have a medical reason he would be banned.

The NRL and QLD govt were very happy to sign off on it then. Because he clearly made a compelling case.

Itd just be like the NBA if we are honest. LeBron James isnt vaccinated so the NBA rule set is everyone has to vaccinated except for the players

 

[MisterMarcus]

So if you are on a plane and vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you?
This is one point of the whole debate no one has explained:

A vaccine offers the recipient protection. How than are the unvaccinated a threat of passing on a virus the vaccinated are vaccinated against?
(Unless they are not effective which renders the debate moot)

One thing you're overlooking is people who legitimately cannot get vaccinated, due to medical/allergic conditions, etc. They depend on having vaccinated people around them to prevent (or at least help significantly reduce) them getting the disease.

They have every right to be protected in these sorts of environments.

 

[The 747]

Of course it is jeez but I shouldn’t pay upwards of 5-8 grand and have to sit next to an anti vaxxer nut job.

Some things in life are luxuries flying is one.

If you don't want to sit next to X type person on a plane buy another ticket for the seat next to you. Easy. Or go first class.

 

[Run n Spread]

One thing you're overlooking is people who legitimately cannot get vaccinated, due to medical/allergic conditions, etc. They depend on having vaccinated people around them to prevent (or at least help significantly reduce) them getting the disease.

They have every right to be protected in these sorts of environments.

That is a point I will concede. But like with everything there is risk.

Let me put it this way:
If you mandate vaccinations and there is an injury as a result should the government/manufacturers be liable and pay compensation?

This is the same situation as last year. The elderly for example are at risk of an outbreak as are they are of many things. But what we did to protect 1% was impose measures that had very real and disastrous consequences for many of the 99% rather than targeting them we targeted everyone.

Disease is a fact of life btw. I for example am vulnerable myself (not to Covid). Do I have the right to mandate society fit in with me to deal with conditions I have? imo No.

If the vaccines are safe and proven over the long term than yes people should get them. Polio, Whooping Cough for example. Making them mandatory is a long bow.

 

[faible]

protect 1%

wrong.

 

[MisterMarcus]

That is a point I will concede. But like with everything there is risk.

Let me put it this way:
If you mandate vaccinations and there is an injury as a result should the government/manufacturers be liable and pay compensation?

This is not government compulsion but employers or business setting conditions of entry.

This is the same situation as last year. The elderly for example are at risk of an outbreak as are they are of many things. But what we did to protect 1% was impose measures that had very real and disastrous consequences for many of the 99% rather than targeting them we targeted everyone.

The problem I have with this argument is that you could justify all sorts of selfish and anti-social behaviour if the mentality is "we shouldn't have to suffer to protect the 1%". Living in society has always meant making at least some personal sacrifices to an overall good. Getting a jab to help protect the most vulnerable seems pretty reasonable to me.

Disease is a fact of life btw.
I for example am vulnerable myself (not to Covid). Do I have the right to mandate society fit in with me to deal with conditions I have? imo No.

People who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons are at great risk of many diseases through absolutely no fault of their own. If someone's condition was their own fault (e.g. obesity because they just couldn't stop eating junk) then maybe your argument has merit. But someone who is vulnerable through no fault of their own deserves whatever protection we can give them IMHO.

If the vaccines are safe and proven over the long term than yes people should get them. Polio, Whooping Cough for example. Making them mandatory is a long bow.

It's not mandatory, it's an employee/business condition of entry.

If you're argument is "freedom": you have the freedom to refuse vaccination, and they have the freedom to refuse you service or employment. "Freedom" all around.

 

[projectv]

So if you are on a plane and vaccinated how are the unvaccinated a threat to you?
This is one point of the whole debate no one has explained:

A vaccine offers the recipient protection. How than are the unvaccinated a threat of passing on a virus the vaccinated are vaccinated against?
(Unless they are not effective which renders the debate moot)

OK, so let's run with your analogy.

What if there are two people unvaccinated on the plane?

What if there are ten?

What about a hundred?

The simple answer to your question is that the unvaccinated are largely not a threat to the vaccinated, they are a threat to the unvaccinated. Which creates liability, which creates mandates and the need to help unvaccinated people who are unwilling (or unable) to help themselves.

 

[projectv]

If you mandate vaccinations and there is an injury as a result should the government/manufacturers be liable and pay compensation?

This is fair. I think that manufacturers should be liable if the vaccinations are found to cause health issues.

But if we're playing that game, then we could also make a case that spreading it while unvaccinated causes more health issues (in a utilitarian sense) which mean that they should also be held liable.

Which is not a great path to go down...

 

[Run n Spread]

OK, so let's run with your analogy.

What if there are two people unvaccinated on the plane?

What if there are ten?

What about a hundred?

The simple answer to your question is that the unvaccinated are largely not a threat to the vaccinated, they are a threat to the unvaccinated. Which creates liability, which creates mandates and the need to help unvaccinated people who are unwilling (or unable) to help themselves.

Slippery slope. Should there be mandates for people who drink too much, eat too much smoke etc in order to help themselves?

This is fair. I think that manufacturers should be liable if the vaccinations are found to cause health issues.

But if we're playing that game, then we could also make a case that spreading it while unvaccinated causes more health issues (in a utilitarian sense) which mean that they should also be held liable.

Which is not a great path to go down...

How do you prove it thou? In that case you essentially are trying to prove asymptomatic spread. And given it has been acknowledged vaccinated people can still spread it are they too liable.

By trying to legislate control of a virus we are really on an impossible trajectory.

 

[Mofra]

How do you prove it thou? In that case you essentially are trying to prove asymptomatic spread. And given it has been acknowledged vaccinated people can still spread it are they too liable.

By trying to legislate control of a virus we are really on an impossible trajectory.

Depends if they are under isolation orders or not I guess

Vietnam: Man gets five years in jail for spreading Covid

Le Van Tri was found guilty of spreading the virus to eight people in Vietnam, one of whom died.

www.bbc.com