**MB Thread** Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

[Trav 20]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Why visit Bigfooty then?

I don't terribly often - 2-3 times a week.

I'm surprised that most Melb supporters don't just shut their cakehole and let the actions of 2012 do the talking.

 

[The Wrecker]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

A couple of posters have potted Brent Moloney. The guy got 19 votes in the Brownlow. With that said there needs to be more consistency between his best and worst.
Melb went from 8 wins in 2010 to 10 wins in 2011. A further incremental improvement will see them reach the eight next year. Twelve wins would be a success.
What I like is that Dave Misson is flogging the crap out of them at the moment. That guy is a winner, but Melb only have half their squad training, so the jump won't be huge this year. They need Davey, Sylvia, Grimes, Bail, Jurrah etc to have great years. Also, until their midfield improves they will never threaten Geelong, Collingwood or Hawthorn.
Of the other teams, I think North will win a couple more games. Their rucks and midfield are developing well. Seem to have a good spirit as well.
If the Tiges fix their defence then they could threaten the eight.
I'm not sure the Bombers are good enough. Sorry Bomers, but I can't see it happening.
But one thing is guaranteed. There will be teams that shoot up the ladder and other teams that lose confidence and dwindle. It happens most years. Expect Freo to be top-four.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

8.5 wins in both 2010 and 2011 mate.

And we have well over half our squad training; there are some 'rehab' guys... but you'd be surprised at how hard they get worked out of the main group.

 

[King Corey]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

I don't terribly often - 2-3 times a week.

I'm surprised that most Melb supporters don't just shut their cakehole and let the actions of 2012 do the talking.

Mate it's the same for all our supporters (the above 4 clubs unfortunately). Few things are more cringeful than a footy discussion thread where you want to hear outside opinions that gets derailed by your own spruiking your club's upside.

I think Mitch Clark will make a big structural difference to the Dees. Add Sellar and they have some bigger KP size bodies to allow Jurrah, Watts etc to play supporting roles while the side develops. The midfield is full of talent and the backline underrated. If Neeld has half a clue I'd expect them to be banging on the 8.

Something about Richmond makes me think it won't quite click as yet. A bit like us there is a reasonable spread of talent and endeavour but I guess there's no track record of producing consistently so it's hard to imagine it being different. Richmond seem to be a club who can self-sabotage just when you think they're about to improve and just get a feeling it might happen next year.

Bombers have enviable resources and support structure. They have a very good record against the top sides but can be vulnerable to the mid tier. I don't like them one bit but think they might end up around 5-6 as their spine continues to develop and the midfield finds the best way to extract performance out of what they've got.

 

[blitzer]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

I won't talk about Essendon's prospects since the idea of the thread was originally outsiders perspective but I do find the other 3 teams interesting.

North - I was one who thought North were going to be onto good things in 2011 and they probably didn't really deliver but they didn't get worse either. They have a pretty good list overall with a fairly strong midfield unit,particularly inside midfielders although they definitely need a few more quality outside midfielders particularly as Harvey's career winds down. Their KP's are ok but they probably need to find another quality one or two, Petrie is a gun though. With a super easy draw and an almost guaranteed 16 points from 2 games against both GWS and GC, if they don't finish top 8 next year it would be a big failure. Will finish around 7th I reckon.

Richmond - Like everyone else has said, their top end quality is really good. However they don't have anything even representing depth, in fact even the bottom 7 or so players in their best 22 is very ordinary. I actually don't see them making the 8 next year (its possible but I doubt it). Also their top end players played basically every single game last year, Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Cotchin. Its actually quite possible they will get less from this group next year so they need more players to step up. Ruck is still an issue for them, (I really rate Vickery though as a forward). Up forward they need more targets, its pretty much Riewoldt/Vickery/King all the time. Down back I think they are starting to get it all together but just need more time to develop. Will finish around 12th in my opinion unless they have a great injury run so their depth isn't exposed.

Melbourne - I don't really care for Melbourne's list or performances, seriously mentally weak. The amount of absolute floggings was pretty shocking and they were up and down like a yo-yo. Every second week they were playing for the coach and it was a bit of a farce really. Don't be deceived by their final ladder position either they went backwards big time last year despite a gift draw.

Their defence is solid and is their strength for mine. Midfield is ok and developing but still a long way off from the best sides, not much from their senior players either. Forward line is not great, Jurrah is very talented but he's extremely soft and there's no doubt he loves to be as far from his direct opponent as humanly possible and does not lay anywhere near enough tackles given his attributes. I didn't care for the recruitment of Clark because I think he's so much better as a ruckmen than he is as a forward but at least he will be another target up there but for the amount of salary cap, I think you want a bit more than that. They will probably finish around 13th next year if I had to guess, could go higher though if the new coach can rally the players to play to their potential.

 

[Kong]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, Norf – views from the outside

Ok if Essendon finish 6th or above in 2012, I will wear any signature you create for 6 months. If Essendon finish 7th or below, you have to wear any signature I create for 6 months.

Do we have ourselves our deal?

Yeah, as long as it doesn't break any BigFooty rules, I'm down with that.

 

[Tulip]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

I don't terribly often - 2-3 times a week.

I'm surprised that most Melb supporters don't just shut their cakehole and let the actions of 2012 do the talking.

Agree. I've personally had very little to say about Melbourne this off-season

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

A lot of good opinions in this thread that make great reading. Unfortunately also a lot of bias and mis-information being thrown around by those who obviously haven't watched these four teams a great deal in the last three years, so form their opinion on the far away past.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Yeah, as long as it doesn't break any BigFooty rules, I'm down with that.

Ok deal!

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

A lot of good opinions in this thread that make great reading. Unfortunately also a lot of bias and mis-information being thrown around by those who obviously haven't watched these four teams a great deal in the last three years, so form their opinion on the far away past.

So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you and thinks that Richmond aren't going to improve this year, knows nothing about football.

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you and thinks that Richmond aren't going to improve this year, knows nothing about football.

Not at all, I agree with as much of the negative about us as the positive in here. You are a fine example of the bias in here though.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Melbourne.
Could do anything. Their last season was a pretty gutless affair, so with a new coach and a harder game plan they could go either way. They have a pretty easy draw, easiest of the four I think, and have bought in a raft of off field coaches and assistants. It will be interesting to see what Neil Craig will add to the off field mix, most seem to agree he was an excellent analyst though he wasn't considered a great game day coach.

They aren't that far off being a decent side and only a few things need change for them to come good. Don't think they will push the 8 as like Richmond their veterans are poor and they rely on their kids too much. 10th

North
Hard bunch of insiders and some A grade senior players, but poor foot skills and only one decent outside mid in wells. McKenzie should fill a huge list need on the half back flank and give them some quality distribution coming out.

North don't need too much to go right for them to make a play on the eight. Harper, Atley, Bastinac and Cunnington are all about due a breakout year, and Anthony might be able to stay on the park. The big If is whether Grima is going to be able to hold down a backline spot and whether Black can have an impact up forward. Hansen to the backline for mine. 9th place.

Essendon
Best of the four. List is coming along, but they have the off field resources the others don't. Did a fantastic job last off season and came out super fit, this season they are looking to improve and add some muscle mass to their frames. Could be quite scary. Well placed to get the most potential out of their players.

Kavanagh could add some outside class for them, not too sure what else they have coming through? Probably 7th, they have some decent older players and middle age players and are strong in all the KPP areas.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Not at all, I agree with as much of the negative about us as the positive in here. You are a fine example of the bias in here though.

Out of the teams mentioned in this thread, I only dislike Essendon. Richmond & Melbourne I don't like or dislike. I just think both clubs will struggle again in 2012.

 

[Fasta_123]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

They're all on about the same level. All capable of finishing lower part of the 8. I would have essendon as the highest. Experience plays a key role in finals and essendon is the team able to produce better football agaInst better teams. North seem to be at that level where they're better then the teams lower then them and show thy by beating them. However the gap from the teams above them was seen time and time again in 2011. Melbourne and Richmond are real hard to judge. Can come out against any team and give it a real shake. At the same time though can come out against a bottom of the ladder side and loose. Consistency is their issue. try seem to only e able to get onto a 3-4 week run of good competitive footy before burning out. All young sides and I expect as the teams do mature the consistency will come.

Essendon 6th-10th
North 6th -10th
Richmond 7th-11th
Melbourne 7th-12th

 

[DeeWong6996]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Essendon is a quality side. They have an elite coaching panel and a superb group of youngsters coming through. However, the reason they didn't finish higher than they did was because of their over reliance on Watson. There midfield lacks contribution as witnessed in their mid season slump. In saying that, they did end the hoodoo by defeating Geelong. Hard to predict but I will say that they will end up between 6-9th.

Richmond will be a better side in 2012. The talent at Tigerland is blatantly obvious. The recruitment of Ellis, which will release Deledio into the midfield, is sure to make Richmond's midfield one of the best. The flaw that keeps Richmond lingering back in the bottom half of the ladder is their backline. Their rebounders Newman and Houli are great, but their tall stocks are sub par. Astbury is a natural forward who is too light, Grimes plays his best as 3rd tall, Thursfield has retired and McGuane is too weak to play on the gorilla forwards. Rance is alright but his kicking is pathetic. Surprised they went with Elton at #26 when they could have gone for a tall back. Will improve yet again and COULD make the finals. 8-11th.

North Melbourne has the players to win premierships. Bastinac, Cunnington, Ziebell, Swallow, Goldstein, Petrie, Harvey... My first negative are their performances away from Etihad. They seem less dangerous at larger grounds and the intensity drops off significantly. Secondly, like Essendon, they over rely on their senior players. Petrie up forward, Swallow at the clearances and Goldstein in the ruck are some examples. Another flaw in which I wish to raise is their backline. Whilst it is serviceable against bottom sides, the likes of Tarrant, Hanson and Thompson struggle to match up with the better forwards in the game. Despite saying all this, they will improve again and could indeed crack the eight. My prediction 7-9th.

Melbourne. You can accuse me of being bias but I reckon the comments that I am about to make are 100% true. Our backline is easily our strong point. Frawley will only get better whilst Rivers is serviceable against the gorilla forwards. Garland provides excellent rebound and Grimes if fit, does also. Our ruck stocks are also the best they have been in a long time. Jamar is a late bloomer, Martin's improvement this year is monumental and Gawn is developing nicely down at Casey. Our midfield is average, with Moloney and Jones carrying much of the load. Trengrove should get better with experience and the additions Bate,Tapscott,Taggert to the midfield would hopefully fill some holes. Our forward line is also developing quite well. Mitch Clark will finally give us something to kick to whilst Watts is finally playing some good footy. Clark won't kick 50+ goals and nor does he have to, 30+ goals would be a good return provided he brings the ball to the ground for Jurrah and co. If Green can recapture his '10 form, we have many avenues to score. Finally, I believe the complete restructure of our coaching panel is the kick up the bum we needed. Neeld has impressed me so far, likewise Misson, Craig and Royal. We will definitely improve, any suggestion that we won't is laughable. Will finish 8-10th.

 

[Ugle Dick]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

So in other words, anyone who doesn't agree with you and thinks that Richmond aren't going to improve this year, knows nothing about football.

FruiT ROLL up time HAD?

Nothing in his post to suggest what you are saying.
For mine,
North are the best placed with their current spread of talent, however have a reliance on older guys like Petrie and Harvey - will need to find quality replacements for both in the next 1-2 years I would think to take that next step towards the flag window. I also think of the 4, they probably lack the most 'star power'. Defence is fairly average - not terrible but not as settled or capable as say the Demons. I honestly think they should consider drafting Fev. Yes he is a risk but North just don't seem to generate any interest or relevance in the AFL community. Fev would get them some much needed media and footy interests and probably give them some revenue boosts through increased memberships. With their older guys only having 1-3 years left, they need to roll the dice and have a crack or they will stagnate again when Boomer and Petrie hang up the boots. The fact they are also resorting to desperate measures and asking their few, loyal (though admirable) members to help them eliminate their debt is a joke especially since they knocked back the AFL relocation offer.

Bombers, Decent KPP and rucks but the worst midfield of the 4 by a significant margin. Plodders like Melksham and Stanton would struggle to get into any of the other 3 teams and their recent pick ups - Kavanagh and Heppell (at this stage)are no certainties to become quality midfielders. Gumbleton I think is crock and so they shouldn't have high hopes of him ever making it. Hurley is good but is one man. Also Fletcher being not only in their best 22 but probably outside of their bottom 8 or so players shows they have a huge reliance on the old man - they need to find an heir as Fletch can't go on forever. As a pies fan, it is good to see the bombers stuck in no man's land

Tigers have the best top end talent but need to probably find a quality CHB to compliment the emerging Rance (Post or Astbury need to do what Rance did this year and show something). Rucks should now at least compete and give their superb young midield a decent chance at first use. Some more depth midfielders and crumbing forwards would be handy, their smaller defenders (Batchelor, Dea and Morris) have potential but will need time and games to see if they can fill these holes. Guys like Jackson (the ones who get a game purely on the basis of lack of quality alternatives) will need to weeded out in the next 2 or so seasons. For Richmond, they have stars and stars in the making, they just need to flesh out their support cast. Getting McCarthy from us in the PSD would be a good get

Demons have gone from having probably the most promising young midfield to one lacking some quality after Scully left. Viney coming in will be a boost for sure but the Scully departure will put them back a few seasons at least. I'm not sold on their key forwards - Green possibly the worst captain going around in 2011 and offering nothing. Watts not yet showing anything to justify why he was taken as a top 10 pick (let alone number 1). Jurrah is inconsistent and Clark is a Ruckman turned forward - he will improve their structure (still not sure why they let Miller and Robbo leave?) but would be lucky to kick 30 goals I would think. Demons strengths lie in their ruck depth and their defence (Frawley and Grimes in particular). If they can force out their hacks in Jones, Morton and Green and replace them with AFL grade players AND Neeld can rectify their pathetic culture and mentality - they have the potential to become a top 6 team in 2-3 years.

So in summation:
Best placed currently: North.
Best outlook for future: Richmond.
In need of most work: Melbourne.

 

[smasha]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

I think Neeld is a great pick up by the Dees.

These 4 teams you just don't know what will happen but I can only see improvement and I reckon 2012 will be one of the most memorable seasons of all time just because of the amount of new coaches at the helm.

So much to look forward too and I can't wait for footy season to begin.

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Plodders like Melksham and Stanton would struggle to get into any of the other 3 teams and their recent pick ups - Kavanagh and Heppell (at this stage)are no certainties to become quality midfielders.


So in summation:
Best placed currently: North.
Best outlook for future: Richmond.
In need of most work: Melbourne.

Stanton would at least get a game in each of those sides
And your comment about Melksham shows how much you know about footy

 

[smasha]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Essendon have the money and the evil minds like Carlton.

You can never write them off.

 

[simba_]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Melbourne still have top youngsters and obv. forwards, rucks and defenders
Richmond will be unlucky not to be in finals

8th and 9th.

North Melbourne could go either way.. can they start well and get 7th spot..? Essendon will be aiming higher (not that North wont) but things have to go their way in the big games for a good spot on the ladder. the Bombers will get there in time but not sure it is this year.

North 10th
Essendon 7th

 

[Geddy Lee]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

99% of posts in here are projections based on last year's results.

I have no clue what's going to happen, but they will certainly not finish in the same order as last year.

My guess is North to be the big improver, and Essendon to come down. Melbourne and Richmond could, and probably will, continue being unpredictable week-to-week.

 

[Darksidepoints]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

We were ****house this year, can't argue that.

No more Tom "Here comes the money' Scully, new coaching/fitness staff, some new big men - we will have a much better year next year.

 

[Powered Up]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

In 2011 Essendon had the most injuries of the teams concerned, yet still finished ahead of them, so I don't expect things to change.

Melbourne were not playing for the coach so I would expect improvement across the board, so they would be the hardest to predict.

North beat all teams bellow them lost to all teams above them bar Essendon, so they are probably around the 8 mark again.

Richmond have top end tallent, but no depth, so I am expecting them to be the worst of the 4.

Essendon 5th -7th
North 8th - 9th
Melbourne 9th - 12th
Richmond 10th - 12th

North need a couple of stars, which are very hard to find and they also need KPPs which are the hardest positions to fill with quality players, So I just can't see a premiership in the near future.

 

[theflea]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Mate it's the same for all our supporters (the above 4 clubs unfortunately). Few things are more cringeful than a footy discussion thread where you want to hear outside opinions that gets derailed by your own spruiking your club's upside.

I think Mitch Clark will make a big structural difference to the Dees. Add Sellar and they have some bigger KP size bodies to allow Jurrah, Watts etc to play supporting roles while the side develops. The midfield is full of talent and the backline underrated. If Neeld has half a clue I'd expect them to be banging on the 8.

Something about Richmond makes me think it won't quite click as yet. A bit like us there is a reasonable spread of talent and endeavour but I guess there's no track record of producing consistently so it's hard to imagine it being different. Richmond seem to be a club who can self-sabotage just when you think they're about to improve and just get a feeling it might happen next year.

Bombers have enviable resources and support structure. They have a very good record against the top sides but can be vulnerable to the mid tier. I don't like them one bit but think they might end up around 5-6 as their spine continues to develop and the midfield finds the best way to extract performance out of what they've got.

pretty good analysis of the tigers with a couple of corrections. to say of us self sabotaging was correct of previous years but cant be said of the current admin.they are all on the same page for once in a long time. also those teams that did make the finals were alot older than the current team so that should put us ahead this time as we are not relying on the 27+ y/o players being the core players.also imo our fwd line didnt just rely on those 2 players as we had 5 players with 25 goals + of only 2 teams for the year.if anything it was the team defence/defence that let us down.

 

[LouisCK]

Re: Bombers, Dees, Tiges, North – views from the outside

Actually I think the only thing that stopped the Dees form having a horrendous season, as opposed to just a pretty bad one, is that we were playing for the coach from time to time. We had terrible fitness, a terrible distraction with Scully, a terrible gameplan and major issues with Schwab not trusting that Bailey was doing his job (which was probably right)