NAB Cup: Rd 4 Western Bulldogs Vs Geelong @ Simmons Stadium

[Sharkey66]

So what do you think, can we play all 3 big guys round 1? If so who goes....Skinner or Grant?

Skinner i think. While Zephi has been an x factor excitement machine so far when he has played, he is just a little to inconsistant at this stage. would like him to string together 3 or 4 good perfomances in the 2s first.
Grant is showing signs of better perfomances this season and with his greater experience should remain in the side. At this stage.

Dont forget we have Sheman and Tutt to come back in the side as well.
Sherman was leading our goalkicking last year at one stage last year wasnt he, before his injury/brainfades last year? And DJ woudnt be far away either.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Skinner i think. While Zephi has been an x factor excitement machine so far when he has played, he is just a little to inconsistant at this stage. would like him to string together 3 or 4 good perfomances in the 2s first.
Grant is showing signs of better perfomances this season and with his greater experience should remain in the side. At this stage.

Dont forget we have Sheman and Tutt to come back in the side as well.
Sherman was leading our goalkicking last year at one stage last year wasnt he, before his injury/brainfades last year? And DJ woudnt be far away either.

I think both Skinner and Grant will play rd 1. Unless we go the 3 talls. But agree if it's choice I think Grant stays in at this stage. Not sure we have resolved the last spot in the backline? Was Howard's game good enough? How did Addison go? I think the DJ could be the man for the role when fit.

Looked to me that Eagles were a bit softer at the hard ball against Adelaide. I think we need to stick with as many hard nuts as possible. So Addison might get a gig still?

Tutt and Sherman will certainly be pushing you'd think for rounds 2 on.

 

[dogwatch]

Betchsta: Get your fact's right, Selwood has nothing to do with the father son rule & I've got no idea where the hell you get this idea from, Other clubs passed on him because of knee issues.

Perhaps you should re-read what I said a bit more closely, because I never said anything about Selwood being a father/son, what I did say it was piece of luck that you got him at pick 7.

Let's not have any of this disingenuousness from Geelong fans. Sure they did a lot of things right off-field in the last 10 years and they did pick up some good players in the draft that other clubs could have picked (eg Corey, Chapman, Ling, J.Hunt) but let's be honest: they were handed a golden opportunity in the draft with f/s picks that will never come to any club again due to the new bidding system.

What is often overlooked is how the late f/s picks enabled them to pick up stars with their first round picks. Selwood is a great case in point. That year everybody was talking about the Tomahawk and what a steal he was. If it happened under today's rules do you think Geelong would get away with taking him at #41? No way. There would be bids under #7 which would force Geelong to give up the Selwood pick in favour of Hawkins. Somebody else (maybe StKilda or Collingwood) would then have got Selwood, probably inside the top 10.

Or take the year that they got Gary Ablett at pick #40 (he would have been taken in the top 3 if not a f/s). That year they picked up Bartel, Kelly and Stevie J with picks under #40.

Congrats to the Cats on making the most of their opportunities (and I'm so glad it was them and not, say, Carlton!) but let's not hear any self-righteous crap about level playing fields.

 

[Igloo]

I think both Skinner and Grant will play rd 1. Unless we go the 3 talls. But agree if it's choice I think Grant stays in at this stage. Not sure we have resolved the last spot in the backline? Was Howard's game good enough? How did Addison go? I think the DJ could be the man for the role when fit.

Looked to me that Eagles were a bit softer at the hard ball against Adelaide. I think we need to stick with as many hard nuts as possible. So Addison might get a gig still?

Tutt and Sherman will certainly be pushing you'd think for rounds 2 on.

Howard's game was definitely good enough to justify a round 1 selection. He was one of the people who most impressed me.

In regard to the forward spot, Grant should be getting a gig before Skinner. Skinner is exciting and everything, but I don't think he has even played a full game in the NAB cup. Would that just be for rotations, or is it telling of his ability to play a full game? If he were to play, he would be the sub.
Grant has showed a bit this pre-season, and deserves the spot more than Skinner at this stage.
That's if we dont go with the 3 talls.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Let's not have any of this disingenuousness from Geelong fans. Sure they did a lot of things right off-field in the last 10 years and they did pick up some good players in the draft that other clubs could have picked (eg Corey, Chapman, Ling, J.Hunt) but let's be honest: they were handed a golden opportunity in the draft with f/s picks that will never come to any club again due to the new bidding system.

What is often overlooked is how the late f/s picks enabled them to pick up stars with their first round picks. Selwood is a great case in point. That year everybody was talking about the Tomahawk and what a steal he was. If it happened under today's rules do you think Geelong would get away with taking him at #41? No way. There would be bids under #7 which would force Geelong to give up the Selwood pick in favour of Hawkins. Somebody else (maybe StKilda or Collingwood) would then have got Selwood, probably inside the top 10.

Or take the year that they got Gary Ablett at pick #40 (he would have been taken in the top 3 if not a f/s). That year they picked up Bartel, Kelly and Stevie J with picks under #40.

Congrats to the Cats on making the most of their opportunities (and I'm so glad it was them and not, say, Carlton!) but let's not hear any self-righteous crap about level playing fields.

Your right about Hawkins and Selwood but there's no way Ablett would have been taken top 3 he wasn't anywhere near that highly rated

 

[StringyDog]

Or take the year that they got Gary Ablett at pick #40 (he would have been taken in the top 3 if not a f/s). That year they picked up Bartel, Kelly and Stevie J with picks under #40.

This is where people get it so wrong just looking at how good he is now in hindsight, Ablett at he time of that draft was rated about a pick 30-40 player so he wouldn't have gone at number 3 as he was a small forward type with not a big tank. The fact he developed into the the games best player has nothing to do with where he would have been picked up in that draft.

 

[lindsay_bulldogs]

Higgins is a good player who frustrates me and a lot of others on here. Gets good stats but its not what he does when he has the ball it is what he does when he does not have the ball. I would not select him until he fixes this side of the game and it is the exact reason I would pick Smith who works hard when he does not have the ball but at this stage not at the Higgins level with his ball use. Teams win games and Higgins plays to much like and individual for my liking and this needs to be stripped out of his game. This is a big culture issue for me and at the moment we are working hard to change it. I would select him for round one but if what I have seen in the pre-season continues I would drop him round two.

 

[Prince Imperial]

This is where people get it so wrong just looking at how good he is now in hindsight, Ablett at he time of that draft was rated about a pick 30-40 player so he wouldn't have gone at number 3 as he was a small forward type with not a big tank. The fact he developed into the the games best player has nothing to do with where he would have been picked up in that draft.

I didn't see Ablett as a junior but I saw him play his first ever AFL game - a practice match against us in 2002 at Kardinia Park. He was BOG. I know that's after an AFL preseason of training, but I find it hard to believe all the recruiters would have gotten it that wrong that he wouldn't have been taken a lot earlier than 30-40 especially given his pedigree. Probably would not have went top 3 given it was the Hodge/Ball/Judd year and reckoned to be one of the strongest drafts.

Has to be said though, irrespective of the father/sons, Stephen Wells' recruiting and Geelong's player development was outstanding.

 

[AJARWA]

Higgins is a good player who frustrates me and a lot of others on here. Gets good stats but its not what he does when he has the ball it is what he does when he does not have the ball. I would not select him until he fixes this side of the game and it is the exact reason I would pick Smith who works hard when he does not have the ball but at this stage not at the Higgins level with his ball use. Teams win games and Higgins plays to much like and individual for my liking and this needs to be stripped out of his game. This is a big culture issue for me and at the moment we are working hard to change it. I would select him for round one but if what I have seen in the pre-season continues I would drop him round two.

I agree. I can't see how a few games at Willi would hurt him if his form drops off. For me he's no longer an automatic inclusion, particularly if you've got kids like Smith, Tutt or Howard missing out b/c of it. Let go back and dominate a few games while copping a few around the ears.
Higgins has probably suffered more than most at the Club from high expectations... the next captain to take us to that elusive flag. You can see he's still trying to live up to that in the articles we read about him.
I'd like to see the marketers at the Club take the pin up boy focus off him, and allow him to focus on playing football. He adds a lot of value to our team if he can become a creative half back and release Murphy forward. Loose the blonde locks, grow some chest hair and lay a few tackles. I'd like to think the days of the Peter Jackson gaylord focker suit ads are over at the Dogs.

As for bottoming out... I agree a top five silky mid or two is probably what we need. But from everything that Grant, Macca and King are saying (and not saying), I just don't think it's in them to play with the expectation of losing (i.e. look at yesterday's Roughead interview - dissappointed he lost to Geelong by nine points in a practice game). So while it might be interesting to throw some hypotheticals around about 'what if we get pick 3', I think it's a discussion that's not even on the table. There's a lot more variables involved in winning premierships than worrying about getting pick 4 over pick 8 in the next draft. I don't think Hawthorn or Collingwood were trying to be crap in the years they bottomed out, they just were crap. IMO the main issue the Dogs will have is peaking around the same time as GC and GWS.

 

[AJARWA]

Has to be said though, irrespective of the father/sons, Stephen Wells' recruiting and Geelong's player development was outstanding.

Spot on. Nice to know we've got one of the key figureheads in that era now leading our team.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but I don't for one moment want our club to tank in any way shape or form.

However, I think we should be giving more opportunities to our younger brigade at the expense of experience, because I don't see us making finals, and if we do, we will be bailed out in the first final.

 

[Igloo]

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but I don't for one moment want our club to tank in any way shape or form.

However, I think we should be giving more opportunities to our younger brigade at the expense of experience, because I don't see us making finals, and if we do, we will be bailed out in the first final.

I agree completely. Tanking isn't the answer, and not a road we are going to want to go down.
Teams are getting better this year anyway. A lot of the mid table teams have improved, and some lower placed teams will have also. It might end up we finish somewhere down the bottom, which will be disappointing, but not the end of the world. To purposely finish towards the bottom though, would be extremely detrimental to the psyche of the players, as well as encouraging a losing culture. Teams take a long time to get out of a tanking phase. We don't want that to happen to us.

 

[gs17]

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but I don't for one moment want our club to tank in any way shape or form.

However, I think we should be giving more opportunities to our younger brigade at the expense of experience, because I don't see us making finals, and if we do, we will be bailed out in the first final.

I agree, tanking is a very slippery slope for a club in our position. I'm happy for younger players to be given a go if and when they deserve it, not just for the sake of giving them a game. The best team available should be the one played, and if it is a toss up for a position in the team development and age should be considered.

 

[lindsay_bulldogs]

I agree. I can't see how a few games at Willi would hurt him if his form drops off. For me he's no longer an automatic inclusion, particularly if you've got kids like Smith, Tutt or Howard missing out b/c of it. Let go back and dominate a few games while copping a few around the ears.
Higgins has probably suffered more than most at the Club from high expectations... the next captain to take us to that elusive flag. You can see he's still trying to live up to that in the articles we read about him.
I'd like to see the marketers at the Club take the pin up boy focus off him, and allow him to focus on playing football. He adds a lot of value to our team if he can become a creative half back and release Murphy forward. Loose the blonde locks, grow some chest hair and lay a few tackles. I'd like to think the days of the Peter Jackson gaylord focker suit ads are over at the Dogs.

As for bottoming out... I agree a top five silky mid or two is probably what we need. But from everything that Grant, Macca and King are saying (and not saying), I just don't think it's in them to play with the expectation of losing (i.e. look at yesterday's Roughead interview - dissappointed he lost to Geelong by nine points in a practice game). So while it might be interesting to throw some hypotheticals around about 'what if we get pick 3', I think it's a discussion that's not even on the table. There's a lot more variables involved in winning premierships than worrying about getting pick 4 over pick 8 in the next draft. I don't think Hawthorn or Collingwood were trying to be crap in the years they bottomed out, they just were crap. IMO the main issue the Dogs will have is peaking around the same time as GC and GWS.

I heard he was Captain for the Geelong game. Now as a leader I would have thought you need to play a bit like a Joel Selwood does to lead the way. Maybe they thought he might play different with a little more responsibility. According to the talk on here it didn't happen. I just hope that Macca makes the call early on Higgins if it is needed.

I don't think bottoming out is an option for us and never should be. If we find we stay around one position on the ladder not making finals then it's time to invest more money in the recruiting side of things as going to the bottom and getting lower picks does not make you go up the ladder any faster if you don't get the selections right in the first place.

 

[TMoney22]

Anyone know why Vespremi didnt play? Hopefully just a rest.
I'd prefer him at half back that Higgins atm.

Higgins shouldnt be playing in the backline. It hurts the team too much just to give him a feel of the ball. His possessions down back dont hurt the other team. He must play forward of center, he is more classy around goals and 15 possessions there are way more valuable than 30 down back.

 

[SonOfScray]

I dislike Higgins. However, he can play, he has elite football sense, specifically as a forward.

He is a forward, that's where he belongs. He can be a very solid forward, one that we need. Cut the crap about his potential and what not, we need goal scorers, he has that ability. If he can't do the job there this season and we have to play him loose at half back to get a kick, well, then surely it is time to move him along.

 

[Igloo]

I dislike Higgins. However, he can play, he has elite football sense, specifically as a forward.

He is a forward, that's where he belongs. He can be a very solid forward, one that we need. Cut the crap about his potential and what not, we need goal scorers, he has that ability. If he can't do the job there this season and we have to play him loose at half back to get a kick, well, then surely it is time to move him along.

Bolded is correct. He is a forward. Will never be a midfielder, and it's not doing him any good going across half back.
He can play deep forward well, and he can play high as well. He's a good mark, and from a set shot is a good shot at goal.
I remember in the 08 (?) final vs Geelong, he ripped Darren Milburn to shreds in the first quarter staying in the forward 50.

 

[lindsay_bulldogs]

Bolded is correct. He is a forward. Will never be a midfielder, and it's not doing him any good going across half back.
He can play deep forward well, and he can play high as well. He's a good mark, and from a set shot is a good shot at goal.
I remember in the 08 (?) final vs Geelong, he ripped Darren Milburn to shreds in the first quarter staying in the forward 50.

Unfortunately he could not finish in that game as I remember.

 

[cleveland]

I dislike Higgins. However, he can play, he has elite football sense, specifically as a forward.

He is a forward, that's where he belongs. He can be a very solid forward, one that we need. Cut the crap about his potential and what not, we need goal scorers, he has that ability. If he can't do the job there this season and we have to play him loose at half back to get a kick, well, then surely it is time to move him along.

spot on

 

[adam10]

Went to the game and my thoughts were:

Back 6 held up fairly well. Lake and Hargrave are looking back to their best and with more match-time the more they are going to improve. Markovic really impresses me and I'm confident he can fill in the Williams void. Howard I really like off half-back to be honest. He gives us loads of polish out of the backline and makes the correct decisions. Addison and Wood were solid, think Wood needs to take his game to the next level though.

Midfield was very good in the first half, barely lost a clearance helped with Cats only having 1 actual ruck-men for most of the game. Minson rucked well, Libba was brilliant in the middle. Boyd and Cross were Boyd and Cross and Smith has to play round 1. Picken did a great job on Selwood, Geelong crowd were going nuts when all the fights were happening when even though pretty much every fight revolved around 'angry' Chappy. Wallis was very average, too many turnovers and Smith/Libba are ahead of him quite easily. Not saying he won't be good he just really needs to work on his decision making and disposal. Was an awesome sight watching Cooney in the middle hopefully he and Dal can give us little stints through the midfield. Roughead/Minson rucked very well specially big Will.

Forwards were very interesting, Jones got demolished by Taylor/Scarlett/Lonergan. Roughead did well up forward, Cordy also did well, which for me shows we need to play 3 talls to continue to give us different options if something isn't working. Skinner and Grant I'd love to see in the same forward line even though it won't happen.

 

[dogwatch]

I don't think Hawthorn or Collingwood were trying to be crap in the years they bottomed out, they just were crap.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Nobody starts a season that way but once the chance for the finals is gone there's all sorts of legit capers available that don't quite equal "tanking" but achieve a similar result.

There's never proof but the AFL allowed the rewards for tanking to be too great for too long. They always denied it was going on but have been quietly fixing the loopholes in the last few years.

 

[adam10]

This 22 will most likely never happen but I'd like to see it given a shot.

Wood Lake Hargrave
Howard Markovic Murphy
Cross Boyd Smith
Dalhaus Jones Cooney
Cordy Roughead Gia

Minson Griffen Picken

Libba, Higgins, 2 of Skinner/Grant/Dickson

 

[Beasley]

Sorry the Data proves that theory wrong

Geelong flag: 2011 Didnt bottom out
Collingwood :flag 2010 Didnt bottom out
Geelong flag: 2009 Didnt bottom out
Hawthorn flag: 2009 Didnt bottom out

The list goes on

The tiges bottom out time after time

I am afraid you are wrong on that point.

Both Hawthorn and Collingwood bottomed out prior to their recent premierships.

Hawthorns build-up to the 2009 premiership was; 2005 - 15th, 2006 - 14th, 2007 - 11th, 2008 - 6th

Collingwoods build up to the premiership in 2010 was 2005 - 15th, 2006 - 7th, 2007 - 3rd, 2008 - 6th, 2009 - 4th.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

I am afraid you are wrong on that point.

Both Hawthorn and Collingwood bottomed out prior to their recent premierships.

Hawthorns build-up to the 2009 premiership was; 2005 - 15th, 2006 - 14th, 2007 - 11th, 2008 - 6th

Collingwoods build up to the premiership in 2010 was 2005 - 15th, 2006 - 7th, 2007 - 3rd, 2008 - 6th, 2009 - 4th.

That's my point. In the years that I have followed the doggies which isn't as long as some on here, we have only won the wooden spoon once, and reaped Cooney and Griffin as a result. Have we ever picked up a top 5 draft pick prior to that?

 

[Beasley]

That's my point. In the years that I have followed the doggies which isn't as long as some on here, we have only won the wooden spoon once, and reaped Cooney and Griffin as a result. Have we ever picked up a top 5 draft pick prior to that?

When did we get that tall dud ...... his old man was at North Melbourne Walsh... he was No5 I think. Another Clayton stuff up with a tall player.