Hollow Knight
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NAB Cup Round 2 - Essendon v Brisbane Lions Official Thread
- Thread starter POBT
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Im just amazed that some people are so upset/disapointed.
I get that everyone here wants to see the lions back in the finals this year.
However, we CHOSE not to play Power, Trapper, Brennan and Riska. I think that everyone would agree that these players are in our top 22 (most likely top 18).
Hard to win the clearances when these guys arent playing.
Pre-season is about finding out what you don't know, and we found out alot about our second-third tier players.
Hille is one of the better ruckman in the comp, that fact that he won Essendon's B & F last year shows how good a player he is. No surprise that the Berger in his first game back didn'd dominate (but he didnt get totally smashed either).
I get that everyone here wants to see the lions back in the finals this year.
However, we CHOSE not to play Power, Trapper, Brennan and Riska. I think that everyone would agree that these players are in our top 22 (most likely top 18).
Hard to win the clearances when these guys arent playing.
Pre-season is about finding out what you don't know, and we found out alot about our second-third tier players.
Hille is one of the better ruckman in the comp, that fact that he won Essendon's B & F last year shows how good a player he is. No surprise that the Berger in his first game back didn'd dominate (but he didnt get totally smashed either).
Did anyone seriously think that the recent retention of Tippett and acquisition of McCulloch and Murray would fix our ruck problems THIS year - of course not - no big problem if no injuries - if injuries...Dear Bill.
We had 4 ruckmen on the list - through circumstances it suddenly was 2....we just have to live with it for now.
It is interesting to see the change of policy at St Kilda - they put up with a weak ruck situation for years when serious contenders for a flag - now they have King and Gardiner to help out.
We had 4 ruckmen on the list - through circumstances it suddenly was 2....we just have to live with it for now.
It is interesting to see the change of policy at St Kilda - they put up with a weak ruck situation for years when serious contenders for a flag - now they have King and Gardiner to help out.
Had McDonald retired a few months earlier, we could well have been in the hunt to get King. Considering he went to St Kilda for pick 90, he wasn't going to cost us much.
Just bad luck to have Beau break down basically straight after trading away Wood.
Daniel Murray looks a fairly solid lad though, so I wouldn't count against him not being able to help out this year if required.
Just bad luck to have Beau break down basically straight after trading away Wood.
Daniel Murray looks a fairly solid lad though, so I wouldn't count against him not being able to help out this year if required.
Could have got White this time around, I just don't think we are interested in top up ruckmen.
Probably more to do with the fact that White is now past it. Always an undersized ruckman at 195cm, he used his leap and athleticism to compete. That was gone and even Melbourne dropped him.
Still, though getting someone like King would have made us more competitive in the short term, I'm happy to giving Leuey the chance to develop into our premier ruck for the next 10 years.
POBT
Brownlow Medallist
- Thread starter
- #258
Although I seem to recall talk that he only wanted to live in Victoria?
On our ruck situation, once we lost Bozo, it is clear that we decided that a youth approach was more beneficial than a stop gap solution. I'm not entirely convinced that it was the right decision - but nor have I been particularly enamoured with any of the "stop gap" ruckmen who have been available...so it is a bit of a lose-lose situation now.
With 5 rucks plus a capable part-timer now on the list, we've at least got the right mix numerically IMO - it is just that 4 of those rucks (plus the part timer) are in the infancy of their careers. It is a wait and pray situation, unfortunately. Not much we can do now unless the opportunity to trade for a 25 year old comes up at the end of the year.
There seem to be rucks who take forever to fill out, and those who are competitive in their 2nd year. Bozo and Charmo only took 2-3 years to establish themselves.
Also, Adelaide went for 3 ruckmen in a relatively short period of time: Meesen, Maric and Griffin. Two of them worked out, and started playing good football ahead of expectations. Hopefully that turns out to be the case for us as well.
Also, Adelaide went for 3 ruckmen in a relatively short period of time: Meesen, Maric and Griffin. Two of them worked out, and started playing good football ahead of expectations. Hopefully that turns out to be the case for us as well.
My two bobs worth on the "recruit a mature back up ruckman” (rambur) debate.
The whole rambur situation is a gamble. We saw the down side of not ramburing on Friday night. Four of the 5.5 ruckmen on our list were injured, one was in his first game back and one was being used at CHF which imo is his correct position. Result we saw undersized and inexperienced ruckman getting beaten. Frustrating in a practice match and potentially heart attack inducing if it happens during the season proper.
But let’s look at the other side of the gamble. There are arguably two types of ramburs available. A rambur that demands a game in the 22; or a rambur that doesn’t and has been recruited for emergencies only. Let’s call them rambur22 and rambur non-22.
It would have been very handy to have rambur 22 in the side on Friday night. We would have probably won but so what. I predict rambur22 would play about 15 games over the year and increase our chances of finishing high in the eight, perhaps even get us to a preliminary final. However in the debate about our best 22, there is already concern over whether or not our structure can cope with playing Clark, Henderson and Berger (CHB) in the one side. And everyone agrees that CHB are the future of the club and should be given every opportunity to play in the seniors. Rambur’s 15 games are going to be at the expense of one of CHB.
Also was there a rambur22 available in the 2008 draft?
It would have been handy to have rambur non-22 in the side on Friday night. At he very least he would have take the pressure of Berger and helped lower my blood pressure. However most of the year he would be taking up space on the list, dominating the magoos and maybe helping (but maybe hindering) the development of younger ruckman.
I think the club choose correctly by taking Rockliff and Murray rather than a rambur.
But feel free to remind me of this position if we go into an important game or heaven’s forbid a final with both Jamie and Berger injured.
The whole rambur situation is a gamble. We saw the down side of not ramburing on Friday night. Four of the 5.5 ruckmen on our list were injured, one was in his first game back and one was being used at CHF which imo is his correct position. Result we saw undersized and inexperienced ruckman getting beaten. Frustrating in a practice match and potentially heart attack inducing if it happens during the season proper.
But let’s look at the other side of the gamble. There are arguably two types of ramburs available. A rambur that demands a game in the 22; or a rambur that doesn’t and has been recruited for emergencies only. Let’s call them rambur22 and rambur non-22.
It would have been very handy to have rambur 22 in the side on Friday night. We would have probably won but so what. I predict rambur22 would play about 15 games over the year and increase our chances of finishing high in the eight, perhaps even get us to a preliminary final. However in the debate about our best 22, there is already concern over whether or not our structure can cope with playing Clark, Henderson and Berger (CHB) in the one side. And everyone agrees that CHB are the future of the club and should be given every opportunity to play in the seniors. Rambur’s 15 games are going to be at the expense of one of CHB.
Also was there a rambur22 available in the 2008 draft?
It would have been handy to have rambur non-22 in the side on Friday night. At he very least he would have take the pressure of Berger and helped lower my blood pressure. However most of the year he would be taking up space on the list, dominating the magoos and maybe helping (but maybe hindering) the development of younger ruckman.
I think the club choose correctly by taking Rockliff and Murray rather than a rambur.
But feel free to remind me of this position if we go into an important game or heaven’s forbid a final with both Jamie and Berger injured.
Whatever, rambur22 or non-22, this is our present, best case scenario, applicable right now.
Charman remains our No 1 ruckman, although from what can be discovered will if all goes to plan hit Game 1 with no games under the belt- ie underprepared. Based on past evidence, Charman is prone to injury as much due to his playing style and approach as body size.
Leuenberger is, while obviously very promising, at the same time clearly a work in progress. It might be unrealistic to expect him to take a leadership role in taking on the best at this stage of his development. The rest of our ruck potentials are well back in the pack.
Therefore the bulk of the load will still fall to Charman with the obvious repercussions we have recently seen.
All of this has been evident for some time, and I for one get really stressed when a game starts and we are already behind the 8 ball.
The solution to this problem is clearly not easy, otherwise I suppose it would have been fixed.
Charman remains our No 1 ruckman, although from what can be discovered will if all goes to plan hit Game 1 with no games under the belt- ie underprepared. Based on past evidence, Charman is prone to injury as much due to his playing style and approach as body size.
Leuenberger is, while obviously very promising, at the same time clearly a work in progress. It might be unrealistic to expect him to take a leadership role in taking on the best at this stage of his development. The rest of our ruck potentials are well back in the pack.
Therefore the bulk of the load will still fall to Charman with the obvious repercussions we have recently seen.
All of this has been evident for some time, and I for one get really stressed when a game starts and we are already behind the 8 ball.
The solution to this problem is clearly not easy, otherwise I suppose it would have been fixed.
POBT
Brownlow Medallist
- Thread starter
- #262
Reading back over Daniel Merrett's Roster Watch thread and the role he played in the ruck in a match against the Dogs, I do think that this is now a viable alternative for us to address the ruck issues. With Henderson's development down back and Roe's return to fitness (plus Clark as a possibility), we've got some depth in tall defenders, if not in the same class as Merrett. I don't think Merrett is able to play as the first ruck but he could certainly do the 25% that Charman/Leuenberger (whoever is available) is off the field.
Looking then at our round 1 opponent (great to go up against Cox possibly with an understrength ruck division!) and whether we can spare Merrett from the backline, it may be a possibility. Big Q played footy further afield last year, meaning that Merrett may not go to him. Mackinlay may be a better option for a medium defender (JMac/Patfull/Roe). That would then leave Henderson to play on Kennedy/Hansen, neither of whom is a "stay at home" tall forward which is Merrett's bread and butter. If West Coast load up their forward line with talls when Merrett is required in the ruck, then Merrett could be shifted back into defence, leaving the rucking to other part-timers (Clark up forward and Brennan around the grounds). There is an interesting discussion here about the possible set-up of the Eagles forward line.
It is not ideal to pull Merrett away from fullback but we are only talking about 10 minutes a quarter (unless the unthinkable occurs and neither Charman or Leuey are available). Of the part-time options, I think Merrett is currently the most viable. Brennan's a non-factor in the ruck contest and, if we want him to play there, Clark needs more time as a forward. And we've got the backline coverage to release Merrett to other roles, when required.
Looking then at our round 1 opponent (great to go up against Cox possibly with an understrength ruck division!) and whether we can spare Merrett from the backline, it may be a possibility. Big Q played footy further afield last year, meaning that Merrett may not go to him. Mackinlay may be a better option for a medium defender (JMac/Patfull/Roe). That would then leave Henderson to play on Kennedy/Hansen, neither of whom is a "stay at home" tall forward which is Merrett's bread and butter. If West Coast load up their forward line with talls when Merrett is required in the ruck, then Merrett could be shifted back into defence, leaving the rucking to other part-timers (Clark up forward and Brennan around the grounds). There is an interesting discussion here about the possible set-up of the Eagles forward line.
It is not ideal to pull Merrett away from fullback but we are only talking about 10 minutes a quarter (unless the unthinkable occurs and neither Charman or Leuey are available). Of the part-time options, I think Merrett is currently the most viable. Brennan's a non-factor in the ruck contest and, if we want him to play there, Clark needs more time as a forward. And we've got the backline coverage to release Merrett to other roles, when required.
Grimreepah
BigFooty One Armed Man
Good call POBT. Merrett is under rated as a ruckman and I would like to see him come into calculations as well. If Henderson (or Clark or Tyler) can hold down a key defensive post then that will give Voss the flexibility to do that.
While our ruck depth is thin, there are a number of stop gap options, which will enable Voss to have a plan B, C, D, etc.
While our ruck depth is thin, there are a number of stop gap options, which will enable Voss to have a plan B, C, D, etc.
Yes good call POBT, I forgot about Merrett's history as a ruckman. He is certainly a potential fill-in. I hope Vossy reads this thread.
Sorry about the double post. An issue with the firewall at work. I think the Boss is watching.
Lace Out
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I don't like the idea of Merrett pinch hitting in the ruck.I think it's too much of a mentality shift and could affect his concentration.It's hard to come back after 10 minutes and realise the oppositions structure is different and try and pick up where you left off.Now if you want to play him as second ruck all game that's a possible and different story.
MasonHindell
Draftee
I was at the game, Brisbane take a long time to dispose of the ball. I reckon Daniel Rich got caught about 3 times.
EFC09!
EFC09!
Hollow Knight
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Ablett got caught twice last night. No biggie.
Definitely food for thought there Grim - Merrett is almost identical in height and weight (but not in shape) to Drew Petrie who I think is North Melbourne's best full back but they choose to play him in other positions and regard him as a ruck option - up to now they have mostly gone with the very capable Michael Firrito at full back who is the same height as Patfull but a much more solid 96 kg.
With the emerging Lachie Henderson around we could easily use Merrett in the ruck if particular situations made it a good option - it seems that Voss is keen to develop more versatility in the side - having said that I hope Merrett plays mostly at full back
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On Merrett, I alwaysfelt that for his development, playing FB was the place for him to learn the game. He came to us raw, and seemed out of his depth up forward as he did not quite seem to know where to lead etc.
I for one would have been interested to see how he would have played elsewhere from fullback if he was available pre-season. Having said that, I know his role is now FB, but it would have been interesting to see how much he has learnt whilst playing on the Fevola's, Lloyd's and Hall's of the game.
I for one would have been interested to see how he would have played elsewhere from fullback if he was available pre-season. Having said that, I know his role is now FB, but it would have been interesting to see how much he has learnt whilst playing on the Fevola's, Lloyd's and Hall's of the game.
