Naitanui, Kreuzer, Clark or Ryder?

[DapperDon]

Surely Hille will be your number 1 ruckmen? He had a steller year last year so you would assume Hille would be first choice with Ryder being the number 2.

The beauty with Ryder is he can play anywhere, he can mop up down back, go forward as a leading target and ruck well. It makes sense that you make use of his versatility by using Hille as first choice ruckmen and then assess where the game is at, to decide where Ryder should be played.

It is in Essendon's best interest to have Hille up and running to give relief to Ryder and release him into other positions. Having said that i believe he will be given extended runs in the ruck but will not be the 1st choice ruckmen given his versatility.

If Hille can get back to his form before he went down he'll be our number 1, but a 28 year old ruckman coming back from a serious knee injury doesn't leave me with a lot of hope he'll get back to his best.

I don't think we'll see Ryder down back again, he'll mainly ruck and rest in the forward line from now on.

 

[Blueboys7]

If Hille can get back to his form before he went down he'll be our number 1, but a 28 year old ruckman coming back from a serious knee injury doesn't leave me with a lot of hope he'll get back to his best.

I don't think we'll see Ryder down back again, he'll mainly ruck and rest in the forward line from now on.

Fair enough, at the very least you are well placed with a no.1 ruckman. If Hille doesn't recapture his form where do you play him?

 

[EssendonPride]

Fair enough, at the very least you are well placed with a no.1 ruckman. If Hille doesn't recapture his form where do you play him?

Forward, as has been stated many times in this thread already.
Hell, it was even in the post you quoted.

 

[Blueboys7]

Forward, as has been stated many times in this thread already.
Hell, it was even in the post you quoted.

So next season your forward line is likely to consist of Neagle, Gumbleton, Lloyd and Hille with Ryder resting forward. That's assuming Lucas retires.

Sounds logical to me

 

[tubbis]

In the Paddy v Kreuze debate its quite simple.

Paddy can ruck like Kreuze can
Paddy can play forward like Kreuze can.
Paddy can mark like Kreuze can (if not better)
Paddy can run like Kreuze can
Paddy can tackle like Kreuze CAN'T (courtesy of his years down back)
Paddy can defend like Kreuze CAN'T

So for all you nitwits who think that Kreuze will be a better overall player.. you're sadly mistaken. The only exception to that statement is if he learns to play defensively like Paddy does.

 

[DapperDon]

So next season your forward line is likely to consist of Neagle, Gumbleton, Lloyd and Hille with Ryder resting forward. That's assuming Lucas retires.

Sounds logical to me

Just try and defend it

Nah in all seriousness, next year if all pieces fall together we'll see Neagle and Gumby at FF and CHF with Lloyd playing between wing and FF. Hille wont play until mid season and Lucas will have retired.

You could even see Gumbleton go in the ruck every now and again, until Hille returns. Ryder will play purely in ruck and most likely rest on the bench if we play a tall forward line, but hey i'd be interesting to see all of them down there, it would help with our game plan of just bombing in it high

 

[magpie10]

ATM ryder, but naitanui will be a star if he can improve his skills

 

[Tomorrows_Nobody]

So next season your forward line is likely to consist of Neagle, Gumbleton, Lloyd and Hille with Ryder resting forward. That's assuming Lucas retires.

Sounds logical to me

I'd like to have three talls.
Lloyd, Hille, Gumbleton/Neagle (as you can pretty much guarantee that at least one will be injured) .
Hille rotates with Ryder.

 

[Strachuniee]

In the Paddy v Kreuze debate its quite simple.

Paddy can ruck like Kreuze can
Paddy can play forward like Kreuze can.
Paddy can mark like Kreuze can (if not better)
Paddy can run like Kreuze can
Paddy can tackle like Kreuze CAN'T (courtesy of his years down back)
Paddy can defend like Kreuze CAN'T

So for all you nitwits who think that Kreuze will be a better overall player.. you're sadly mistaken. The only exception to that statement is if he learns to play defensively like Paddy does.

Your kidding yourself if you think Ryder is as good a forward as Kreuzer. For what kreuzer apparently lacks defensively, he more than makes up for offensively. IMO they are pretty much equal. I would however prefer ryder.

 

[Underdog]

ATM ryder, but naitanui will be a star if he can improve his skills

What's wrong with his skills?

The only flaw is his kicking which can be wonky at times.

Considering how much his marking has improved in 1 pre-season, I don't think it'll be much of an issue.

 

[EssendonPride]

So next season your forward line is likely to consist of Neagle, Gumbleton, Lloyd and Hille with Ryder resting forward. That's assuming Lucas retires.

Sounds logical to me

And if Hille was primarily rucking, where is Ryder playing?

We have Hurley, Pears, Hooker, Daniher down back.

We have KPP depth, deal with it.

 

[fryzie]

Putting all bias aside I still have to say Naitanui.

At the draft trials he got records for vertical leap, came top 10 in some of the speed trials and did very well in the agility tests. I've watched him play in the WAFL (rucking against big blokes including Seaby) and u18s last year and he is something else, runs all day, tackes, kicks goals.

But all these factors aside, he is going to do his apprenticeship as a ruckman under Dean Cox. Learning to ruck under the AA Ruckman for the past 5 years is going to be a major advantage over Clark and Kruezer.

Ryder will learn under Hille, but Hille uses his physical dominance to ruck rather than the athletic ability Ryder displays. He'll still gain a lot from working under a great ruckman like Hille, but not to the extent of Naita.

1. Naita
2. Ryder
3. Kruezer
4. Clark

 

[Winner]

Ryder will learn under Hille, but Hille uses his physical dominance to ruck rather than the athletic ability Ryder displays. He'll still gain a lot from working under a great ruckman like Hille, but not to the extent of Naita.

This is true, however Ryder does physically impose himself on matches like Hille. He tackles like a machine, his tackles hurt too. I can vividly recall him winning us the match against Carlton with a mean tackle on Murphy - while he did another monster tackle on Judd before it too.

 

[Blueboys7]

And if Hille was primarily rucking, where is Ryder playing?

We have Hurley, Pears, Hooker, Daniher down back.

We have KPP depth, deal with it.

What are you talking about?

Clearly your whole point which you so elegantly put to me was that Ryder and Hille will swap in and out of the forward line.

From what im hearing, if everything goes to plan you want Gumbleton, Neagle and Lloyd playing aswell. So if this is all put together then your forward line consists of 4 talls at all times. Thats a little too tall dont you think?

 

[Hodgepodge]

Ryder will catch up with Kreuzer in hitouts tonight, despite only rucking since Anzac Day

 

[EssendonPride]

What are you talking about?

Clearly your whole point which you so elegantly put to me was that Ryder and Hille will swap in and out of the forward line.

From what im hearing, if everything goes to plan you want Gumbleton, Neagle and Lloyd playing aswell. So if this is all put together then your forward line consists of 4 talls at all times. Thats a little too tall dont you think?

Which is where depth comes into it?

Obviously we won't be playing with 4 talls, someone will miss out.

 

[Winner]

Ryder will catch up with Kreuzer in hitouts tonight, despite only rucking since Anzac Day

A lazy 11 contested possessions too (the most on the ground).

 

[mediumsizered]

Ryder will catch up with Kreuzer in hitouts tonight, despite only rucking since Anzac Day

Yet the total number of hitouts won by Essendon so far this season (including tonight's game) is 88 less than Carlton have won. Was Hille that bad prior to his injury, or is it more to do with the fact that Carlton have been able to share the workload between Kreuzer, Hampson & Jacobs?

BTW, did you happen to note the hitouts to advantage stat just on half time in tonight's game? It was 10-2 in Melbourne's favour.

FWIW, Kreuzer is ahead of or equal to Ryder on virtually all stats this season, despite having a lot less ground time than what Ryder does.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=4&pid1=2301&tid2=6&pid2=1613&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

[George Washington]

FWIW, Kreuzer is ahead of or equal to Ryder on virtually all stats this season, despite having a lot less ground time than what Ryder does.

What.

Hitouts PR 209 to MK 213
Contested Possesions PR 91 to MK 72
Tackles PR 61 to MK 41
Disposal Efficieny PR 75% to MK 70%
Kreuzer has 5 more contested marks, but Ryder has 2 more marks inside fifty.
Kreuzer has more uncontested possessions
Ryder has more kicks
Kreuzer more handballs
Exactly the same amount of marks
And Kreuzer only has one more goal, even though according to Carlton supporters he is the next greatest CHF...Also, I believe 3 of his 6 came in 1 quarter..?

Its obviously pretty close, but I would take Ryder, just for the amount of tackles and hard ball he wins.

 

[Burzum]

Yet the total number of hitouts won by Essendon so far this season (including tonight's game) is 88 less than Carlton have won. Was Hille that bad prior to his injury, or is it more to do with the fact that Carlton have been able to share the workload between Kreuzer, Hampson & Jacobs?

BTW, did you happen to note the hitouts to advantage stat just on half time in tonight's game? It was 10-2 in Melbourne's favour.

FWIW, Kreuzer is ahead of or equal to Ryder on virtually all stats this season, despite having a lot less ground time than what Ryder does.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=2301&tid2=6&pid2=1613&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Why don't you use the stats from when Ryder actually entered the ruck?

 

[Rack Watts]

How are people saying Naitinui over Ryder or Kreuzer?
Drafters are complete duds these days, instead of drafting players with good kicking ability which.. let's face it happens to be THE main skill in the game they keep drafting amazing athletes and HOPING that they can pick up an ability that other kids have been doing for 10+ years.
Ryder and Kruezer are the freaks, Naitinui is amazingly good to watch, I won't deny that but the other two are elite in the parts of the game that matter the most.
Ryder is a pin point 55 meter pass with an amazing footy brain, has the freak agility defensive pressure and leap that Naitinui has, people seem to forget that Ryder never had the ability to showcase his skills until he was put in a roaming role instead of being nailed down at CHB.
Kruezer will end up being the best ruckman out of the bunch because even though Ryder is a great ruckman it's not certaint that he will play there, if I had my way him and Hille would be rotating off the forward line.

 

[Hodgepodge]

FWIW, Kreuzer is ahead of or equal to Ryder on virtually all stats this season, despite having a lot less ground time than what Ryder does.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=2301&tid2=6&pid2=1613&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

Where are the stats from when Ryder played as a ruckman?

The hitouts are less because it's key position players like Hooker and Lucas giving Ryder a chop-out instead of another dedicated ruckman.

Since Ryder entered the ruck:

Disposals: 14.25
Hitouts: 23.65
Tackles: 6.3

Kreuzer:
Disposals: 13.8
Hitouts: 17.8
Tackles: 3.4

 

[mediumsizered]

Where are the stats from when Ryder played as a ruckman?

The hitouts are less because it's key position players like Hooker and Lucas giving Ryder a chop-out instead of another dedicated ruckman.

Since Ryder entered the ruck:

Disposals: 14.25
Hitouts: 23.65
Tackles: 6.3

Kreuzer:
Disposals: 13.8
Hitouts: 17.8
Tackles: 3.4

And that is why Ryder wins more hitouts & exactly why I highlighted the fact that in the Carlton/Brisbane game, despite Clark winning 33 hitouts, Carlton still finished the game with more hitouts (Brennan was credited with 1 hitout for the game). Basically you are underrating Kreuzer's value because he has the benefit of sharing the ruckwork with Hampson.

For mine I would rather have 2 young ruckman gaining experience, while not being run into the ground, instead of having one of them 'flogged' by their workload which ultimately will diminish their value. As an example, Melbourne finished ahead on hitouts last night, with Johnson outjumping Ryder (& Johnson only had Stefan Martin providing back up) & this comes after Ryder was absolutely smashed by the Adelaide rucks in the previous game.

Ryder's stats will continue to exceed Kreuzer's, because he is going to continue to spend 90%+ T.O.G, while Kreuzer & Hampson share our ruckwork, with ultimately their combined stats being superior to those of Ryder. The stats you quote unfortunately for you are a perfect example of how stats need to be fully analysed before you truly understand what they mean. It is clear from the stats you are relying on that Ryder's margin over Kreuzer is a lot less than you would expect for someone who has significantly more T.O.G.

 

[Hodgepodge]

And that is why Ryder wins more hitouts & exactly why I highlighted the fact that in the Carlton/Brisbane game, despite Clark winning 33 hitouts, Carlton still finished the game with more hitouts

Hampson is not an option in this poll.

You don't know how much time Ryder spends on the ground. Kreuzer spends time in the forward line while Hampson rucks, which probably elevates his goal kicking stats. It's all checks and balances.

 

[BABYBOMBERS2007]

Ryder. Fantastic fo far.