News New jumpers for 2012

[neroblack]

Agree about the Collingwood lack of clash sock issue.

I remember a couple of seasons ago having to wear our clash socks at home because Collingwood didn't have any. There are plenty of easy solutions from going all out hoop socks to just having a thick white band. It's crazy that they don't have them given the usual solid dark coloured socks of the teams they clash with

I wouldn't mind us wearing the all hooped socks when we're the away team to be honest. But then, it is also fun when other teams get upset at us about jumper designs and colours, the draw, etc...tough choice.

As an aside, Carlton should have worn their baby blue jumper Friday night...we probably would have been distracted by how humourous it looks and lost by even more...

 

[No BS!!]

If they're going to do it, they need to tell Essendon their jumper can't be Black, Red, Yellow, Teal, White or Navy. Because these are the colours of teams they clash with.
Richmond, you can't wear Black, Red, Teal, White, Navy etc. (But it can be Yellow)
and so on.
But it won't happen because the AFL cares less about the clash than it does the retail sales of those jumpers, and no-one is going to buy an Essendon jumper that doesn't have Red & Black on it.
The problem then exists as it does in Rugby, that you can turn on a game on the TV and not know who is playing because all the jumpers have ended up looking the same.

I think the most important thing first and foremost is the acceptance by the AFL of match-day apparel problems between a large collection of match-day clubs, and also, that their current 'guidelines' are ineffective at remedying the issue. Based on this, they need to design and implement a set of regulations that are transparent, applied consistently, and above all effective. An end to the week-to-week reactionary responses and surprises of a club suddenly wearing a new or different strip which in some cases hasn't improved the appearance or presentation on an individual match.

There is a lack of explanation from the AFL as to why some home-designated clubs have to give up part of their home strips (NM, FRE, WCE recently come to mind) yet others (COL, SYD) do not.

Since 1924, the VFL/AFL have treated shorts largely as a generic garment in the whole strip. For over 80 years (and how it lasted for so long in the most professional league in the land), it was a bandaid fix to this issue. Indirectly, it also signified the home & away teams, and clubs and supporters have embraced the black/coloured shorts as their first-choice/main/home shorts. The AFL policy supposedly changed recently. The shorts are still considered generic in that they change according to circumstance, but they released a statement that if only one of the match-day clubs has white, or it has more white, in their guernsey (excluding numbers or sponsors logos), the white shorts will be worn by this club. So will the AFL explain from both of COL vs CAR and SYD vs BL, matches over the weekend where the home teams in both cases were the white team and the away team were the non-white team, why were the white shorts worn by the non-white team? Yet in NM vs WCE, the home and white team did?

As you say Mero, there is a lack of consistency in the implementation of any of the provisions they have. It is appears to be a week-to-week ruling based on the status of the team or teams involved.

I loathe to compare the AFL issue to that of OS leagues because it seems to be a red rag to bull amongst the conservative set, but FIFA, UEFA and the individual european domestic leagues who must follow the rules through membership have a effective policy with regard to this issue. Each match-day team is considered an X or a Y so their status, length of time in a league, or history does not have any bearing on enforcement of the regulations. If a newly promoted minnow club into the Premier League is a predominantly red-kitted team, and they have a home matches against Manchester United or Liverpool or Arsenal, it is these 3 visiting (away-designated) clubs that are required to adopt an alternate strip in their match to avoid the similarities with the red-kit of the home club. It is consistent in its application and effective from a differentiation and presentation objective.

The AFL is unique in:

a) although many clubs share similar colours, each one has some sort of minor differentiator, whether it be they be solid (CAR) the colour of stripes (COL), a sash (ESS & RIC), hoops (ADE), banding (STK & WCE), yoke (MEL) etc. but these differences do not eliminate the similarities which are predominant amongst all these guernseys. they still are largely black or navy blue.

b) many away games are played at home. most melbourne clubs play away games in melbourne, so supporters of these teams still attend away games in large numbers, unlike OS leagues where only very small amount of supporters get to see their team in away matches. Supporters want to identify their team at the ground in their first-choice strips. but the presentation of the match and the league as a whole is extremely poor when teams aren't differentiated properly. it looks like an intra-club game.

 

[No BS!!]

Agree about the Collingwood lack of clash sock issue.

I remember a couple of seasons ago having to wear our clash socks at home because Collingwood didn't have any. There are plenty of easy solutions from going all out hoop socks to just having a thick white band. It's crazy that they don't have them given the usual solid dark coloured socks of the teams they clash with

but that's not the fault of COL. it's the fault of the AFL not having effective policy design that sets out everything required prior to the season and which helps run a consistent process in-season.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Definitely not blaming Collingwood. It's not like they're sitting there like Dick Dastardly cackling over their evil scheme to get home teams to wear away socks. They've actually been super when it comes to clashes in the past few years. It's just a problem that needs fixing IMO.

 

[Silent Alarm]

Definitely not blaming Collingwood. It's not like they're sitting there like Dick Dastardly cackling over their evil scheme to get home teams to wear away socks. They've actually been super when it comes to clashes in the past few years. It's just a problem that needs fixing IMO.

No they haven't.

 

[workhorse]

No they haven't.

Do you mean Collingwood haven't been good at fixing clashes??

If so, I'm not sure how people come that assumption.

This is our current line-up:

*Black and white jumper worn with black shorts (majority dark kit) in all home games and away games against Gold Coast, Sydney and Geelong

*Black and white jumper worn with white shorts (50/50 light/dark kit) in away games against Brisbane, Richmond, Melbourne, Western Bulldogs and Hawthorn. (may sometimes include Essendon on ANZAC Day)

*White and black jumper worn with white shorts (majority light kit) in away games against Fremantle, West Coast, Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Carlton, Essendon and St.Kilda.

*Black jumper with 2 two stripes and black shorts (darker majority black kit) in away games against North Melbourne

I think people assume that we are a serial offender after incidents 4/5 years ago like St.Kilda changing clash jumpers 3 times in about 3 years or North Melbourne having to wear their clash (blue with white V and logo) with blue shorts in a home game against us. As well as the Port Adelaide incident 10 years ago.

But really, we have 3 different jumpers that are worn correctly, week in week out and will continue to do so. So I'm not sure why people complain. Eddie McGuire does not sit up in the death-star and command the AFL to comply to the ways of the 'Darkside'.

Name me one time we haven't adequately solved a clash issue this season?

 

[TheDoctor11]

As you were

 

[Silent Alarm]

In regards to that last post...

I don't know why, but I read "Collingwood" as the "AFL." Sorry. I do agree that Collingwood have been pretty good in their adherence to resolving clashes, whilst also maintaining tradition.

 

[Cory]

 

[Groupie_]

That looks way better.

 

[Cory]

When you compare it to the supposed 'Heritage' guernsey it is quite charcoal.

 

[workhorse]

In regards to that last post...

I don't know why, but I read "Collingwood" as the "AFL." Sorry. I do agree that Collingwood have been pretty good in their adherence to resolving clashes, whilst also maintaining tradition.

Ah okay thats fair enough. You're right about the AFL. It's actually an absolute joke that they can't get it right.

Cory
Lighter grey looks better. I wonder what would it look like with white shorts?

 

[Cory]

I'll edit it when I hop in my laptop later.

 

[Cory]

workhorse

 

[Lion Cub 16]

Looks good Cory. Best one IMO is with grey shorts

 

[No BS!!]

I've got a question for you Mero and any one else frequenting the boards who may have any idea. It's based on this part of a post I wrote up prior to thread #3 being locked

In the case of the COL guernsey and the current AFL way of classifying it, their guernsey is one of the biggest problems in the league. It is classified as dark because it is predominantly black-backed and sided, but the front of it is predominantly white. The front of it has a contrasting appearance to the back and the white front makes it considerably similar to that of NM & GEE first-choice guernseys.

Under revised regulations, I would ensure that the predominant colour on one side of the guernsey is the predominant colour on the other. By predominant, I mean that colour must make up at least half the guernsey on both sides. This would effect half the number of guernseys in the AFL, such as COL (first), STK, WCE (home), SYD (first), BL, ADE, & GWS which all either have one predominant colour or several minor colours on the front, and one predominant colour on the back. The guernseys of the clubs I've mentioned can give the appearance of a 3rd team on the field. When two of these are the match-day teams, it gives the appearance of 4 teams. From the outset, this is not an ideal or effective approach of preventing the clashing of colours/strips of two match-day teams.

So I was crapping on that the designs of some individual club strips contribute to the clashing issues, and also, that they're more of a design statement than facilitator of effectively differentiating the two match-day strips. As an example, the first choice guernseys of STK, SYD, BL & GWS are predominantly solid backed with a colour that is the minor colour or a colour that makes up less than half of the guernsey on the front. The last HAW second-choice guernsey was a culprit of this too. Frankly, most of these guernseys are ugly and achieve nothing IMO. They actually make the clashing kits problem worse.

Then there are the first guernseys of COL, ADE, WCE, HAW, and to a lesser extent GEE & NM (the predominantly white guernseys don't create as much of a problem, or maybe the COL stripes are thicker, although the NM second-choice guernsey is similar to the COL first), whereby the number and sponsor block can take up almost 3/5ths of the back of the guernsey, essentially imposing on the actual design of the guernsey and giving it a markedly different appearance from front to back. Here's the COL guernsey (I think it's 2011 though as it's got CGU as a sponsor) as an example.

The front is predominantly white due to the thicker 3 white stripes (Adidas subliminally ****ing with us you reckon?), but the rear gives a totally different appearance.

So back to the question.......i assume the AFL regulate the positioning and size of logos and numbers on the guernsey as every club seems to have these in the same spots. what i'd like to know is do they have a minimum and maximum size for the numbers and do clubs have room to move in terms of sizing such as making them a bit smaller? Or is it one size for all? Football is played on bigger grounds than rectangular sports, so i understand that the live viewer at the venue can be further away from the action, but the effect of such large numbers basically wipes out a significant amount of the striped or hooped design on the back of the guernsey rendering the design useless and ineffective at differentiating it from other clubs. Do you get what I'm saying here?

Perhaps the AFL need to look at regulating this so the appearance of the guernsey on the striped, hooped, banded guernseys is also maintained front and back. Reducing the maximum size of numbers in width and and height on the guernsey and allowing the design to be less impeded. This way stripes/bands can continue up the guernsey, hoops from the front wrap right around to the number, etc. Even utilise a patch style number block such as Hawthorn, but smaller. HAW actually have the idea I'm referring too as you can see the edge of the wider brown stripes continue up/down the back of their guernsey, it's just that the white panel is ****ing massive that it takes up a significant part of the guernsey.

HAW first

An alternative approach is for these clubs to adopt a different coloured number to the design. Current guernsey designs like this are those from ESS, RIC & WB (it's white but it is placed over the top red hoop) which use a different coloured number than the design it is placed over so the design can continue up the back of the guernsey.

So does anyone know about my number query and what do you guys think about the proposal?

 

[Silent Alarm]

Hrm. I wouldn't say Collingwood have a white jumper. If you teamed it with white shorts and socks, I'd say the strip was white. As it currently is, the guernsey itself is very much black, albeit not by an absolute majority. When teamed with black shorts and socks, it's undeniably black. The Collingwood clash guernsey is white, and the strip is white. I – and most people – don't have any issue with Collingwood FC's jumpers.

Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but are you propositioning that clubs have a jumper that's dominantly one colour? So there would be no 70/15/15, like we see with West Coast and St Kilda's home? Because enforcing such guidelines would surely spell the end for some iconic and original guernsey designs. It's also, for the most part, futile.

As for the numbers, I think they're fine. For the absolute most part, white and black contrast perfectly against whatever the backdrop. Numbers are for identification purposes. The AFL and the clubs are doing an exemplary job of making numbers clear and readable. We shouldn't mess with gimmicks like number colours.

Also, a different colour number will not reduce a clash.

I think the numbers are fine, and they don't infringe on the designs of club jumpers. Not worth the worry in my opinion.

 

[workhorse]

workhorse

Ahk so not much difference. Still looks good

 

[No BS!!]

Hrm. I wouldn't say Collingwood have a white jumper. If you teamed it with white shorts and socks, I'd say the strip was white. As it currently is, the guernsey itself is very much black, albeit not by an absolute majority. When teamed with black shorts and socks, it's undeniably black. The Collingwood clash guernsey is white, and the strip is white. I – and most people – don't have any issue with Collingwood FC's jumpers.

Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, but are you propositioning that clubs have a jumper that's dominantly one colour? So there would be no 70/15/15, like we see with West Coast and St Kilda's home? Because enforcing such guidelines would surely spell the end for some iconic and original guernsey designs. It's also, for the most part, futile.

As for the numbers, I think they're fine. For the absolute most part, white and black contrast perfectly against whatever the backdrop. Numbers are for identification purposes. The AFL and the clubs are doing an exemplary job of making numbers clear and readable. We shouldn't mess with gimmicks like number colours.

Also, a different colour number will not reduce a clash.

I think the numbers are fine, and they don't infringe on the designs of club jumpers. Not worth the worry in my opinion.

thanks for replying.

i think you're slightly misunderstanding my points.

with regard to COL current first-choice guernsey, it is predominantly black. But simply saying it has more black in it is ignoring its actual appearance when worn on the field with players throwing themselves all over the place. It's appearance from front and back are different. Their first choice guernsey is a contrast within itself. The guernsey is predominantly white from the front. This is primarily the reason why it cannot be used in an NM home match. Despite the predominantly black vs predominantly white difference from the back of both guernseys, white is the big similarity and becomes the main colour from the front. This is also the case in COL matches against GEE, but for some reason, the AFL think stripes vs hoops lessens the similarity. Despite the easily discernible differences in a still, both guernseys are still predominantly white with black/navy blue trim from the front.

here's a great photo showing the contrast in the COL own guernsey. From the back and sides with Shaw, it looks great. from the front with Thomas, it looks white and similar to Geelong. These sorts of different appearances on the same guernsey need to be avoided, and which is why I'm saying the AFL should be regulating the designing of guernseys to avoid potential problems. The AFL wouldn't be the first administrator in the world to.

I'm not proposing that clubs have guernseys that are predominantly one colour. I'm proposing that the major colour and/or design on both sides be predominantly the same so to provide an effective appearance of being the same jumper. STK, SYD, BL & GWS strips fail the test as their design leads to the appearance of being different from the front to its back. Yes, I've even thrown my team's guernsey into it. In all cases, the major colour on one side makes up less than half the colour on the other. You say they're iconic, I say they give the appearance of being different from itself and potentially causing clashes and differentiation problems against the other match-day team. Do you think it is futile in terms of improving this aspect or futile in terms of regulating it in the AFL?

The jumpers of the striped and hooped clubs such as COL in the example above, as well as the WCE banded home guernsey are affected by the sizing of the numbers. Yes, the numbers are great in terms of identifying individual players, but they contribute to team differentiation problems because they are so large and wipe out the stripe or hoop pattern making the back of these guernseys predominantly solid in most cases. This affects the appearance of the guernsey from front to back. IMO, the numbers don't need to be so big. By reducing the size of the numbers a bit, COL for example can still use a white number on a black background, but it will allow the outer stripes to continue up the back of the guernsey.

Different coloured numbers aren't a gimmick. Besides, it's accepted for clubs like to COL plonk red and blue sponsors logos on the guernsey, isn't it? The numbers of themselves won't necessarily reduce a clash. I raised the idea an alternative to reducing the numbers and/or using a the same coloured number patch such as black in the case of COL. Different coloured numbers to the design of the strip allow the design on the back of the guernsey to continue and be similar to the front. As I mentioned, ESS, RIC & WB are great examples of clubs that use a number that doesn't impede the design of the guernsey.

Regulating these issues, IMO, will make an individual guernsey less contrasting from itself and will make the issue of clashing strips easier to regulate too. It may prevent AFL clubs and budding designers to come out with wacky strips, but many in the AFL have been ugly and ineffective anyway.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

So, in essence, every jumper should be the same front and back yeah?

 

[No BS!!]

So, in essence, every jumper should be the same front and back yeah?

yeah. but cant just say it without explaining it. otherwise people will ask why.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

yeah. but cant just say it without explaining it. otherwise people will ask why.

If I have you correct, you say, the Geelong jumper should have hoops at the back right to the top, then say, red numbers over the back?

 

[grimface_87]

with regard to COL current first-choice guernsey, it is predominantly black. But simply saying it has more black in it is ignoring its actual appearance when worn on the field with players throwing themselves all over the place. It's appearance from front and back are different. Their first choice guernsey is a contrast within itself. The guernsey is predominantly white from the front. This is primarily the reason why it cannot be used in an NM home match. Despite the predominantly black vs predominantly white difference from the back of both guernseys, white is the big similarity and becomes the main colour from the front.

I'm interested to see how we go in a few weeks in our away game v Collingwood. We are wearing our clash jumper but will it be with blue or white shorts? We have worn the clash jumper with blue shorts every time so far, even against dark shorted teams (Richmond last year and Hawthorn this year).

The front of our clash jumper looks a lot less white than Collingwood's home, partly because of the break in the stripes because of the Mazda logo and (this year) the Blades logo.

 

[Hank93]

 

[No BS!!]

If I have you correct, you say, the Geelong jumper should have hoops at the back right to the top, then say, red numbers over the back?

it could be like that if the numbers have to remain at the same size. like the QPR shirt here.

or if the size of the numbers are reduced slightly, it could maintain the navy number, but allow the hoops from the front to slightly wrap around to the number, or the number to appear like a patch placed over the hoops, like this USA national shirt. this example still uses a different colours but would still work well with navy hoops instead of red hoops.

there are also examples for striped teams too. if same sized numbers are maintained it could be like this Juventus example (not necesarily gold)

as i've mentioned before, it doesn't seem like a big issue for Eddie (or any club) to plonk a red and blue sponsor logo upon black & white.

or if the number size is reduced, it can be like this juventus example

the objective is to try and preserve the appearance of the jumper front and back, thus making the same jumper look effectively similar. this is largely achieved through maintaining the actual design of the guernsey front and back. as ive explained earlier, some examples like COL one and WCE home are different and even contrasting in this regard, particularly when the guernsey is worn and in a match scenario.