Nicky Winmar to take legal action against Newman, Scott and Sheahan

[Blackas87]

Im not saying stop free speech. No one is saying stop free speech.

What we are saying is free speech doesnt mean you dont have consequences for what you say, how is that not obvious?

Can I use my free speech to suggest you enjoy sex with horses? Would you be OK with me saying that in public setting? For my benefit? At your expense?

Free speech applies, no?

you can say what you want as long as you don’t defame someone or something which causes them a loss.

you can say I enjoy having sex with horses, I highly doubt the public will believe You, it will most likely wreck your reputation than mine.

 

[Back One Out]

Saying that it was never about racism suggests that Winmar has been living a lie and capitalising on it ever since.

Yeah, maybe...

Probably a stronger case for defamation if they had actually said "Winmar has been a living a lie and capitalising on it ever since"

Scott said, "My recollection was that St Kilda won and Nicky lifted his jumper saying, 'That was a gutsy effort. We have got heart'. Now it's been misconstrued." Pretty tame stuff. So he remembers it wrong... Pfft.

Sheahan said, "The only person who knows what he meant is Nicky Winmar. He now says he was pointing to the colour of his skin. Unlike some of the people I work with, I'm going to consider it before I give an answer. I was at Victoria Park that day ... and I reckon I left the ground thinking he was talking about guts."

Both of them are just giving their own memory from having been there. So what if they're wrong? The media gets shit wrong all the time.

I don't know.... I hear public figures saying WAY more defamatory stuff than this about politicians, celebrities and past & present sportsmen... People constantly smearing others. Sam Newman himself would've been defamed at least a million times before if we're going to use these comments about Winmar as the standard for slander.

I suppose it would be a really big deal if that incident and photo was your meal ticket in life and you had people questioning whether it was true. But geez... it was 27 years ago! You'd think there would some kind of statute of limitations about people recollecting ancient history.

I'm not sure exactly what Newman said... Something about it being "morphed into all that" by activists. Did he say anything bad about Winmar, or are we just going on the "general vibe of it..."

 

[iBeng]

you can say what you want as long as you don’t defame someone or something which causes them a loss.

you can say I enjoy having sex with horses, I highly doubt the public will believe it, it will mostly wreck your reputation than mine.

Exactly, and in this setting and scenario its pretty damn plain all three of these people made the comment VERY PUBLICLY for their own gain.

Why else would they possibly claim this? To try and prove Winmar a liar? To try and explain away any racism that exists from fans? To ease their own guilt?

What possible reason could they have to make this claim that doesnt benefit themselves through attention?

 

[iBeng]

The ONLY PERSON who knows WHY he did what he did is Winmar himself.

Did he do it because people in the crowd were shouting racist insults at him and he chose to show them his heritage through his skin colour to shit them up?

Or did he show his gut region as a way to show the crowd he/the team had guts in counter to their chants?

Ill be honest, if I had to bank my money, Id go with option A and lock it in Eddie.

I dont recall any other player EVER using a gesture like pointing to their stomach, with shirt raised, to indicate "Guts".

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Hitler stopped free speech, he made other political parties illegal and jailed other politicians that opposed him.

He stopped the people from having a voice so they couldn’t oppose him.

No one is stopping people from saying stuff.

The only thing that is happening, is that if you that something shit, people are allowed to express their displeasure .

Isn't that the absolute definition of free speech?

 

[raffrox]

Yeah, maybe...

Probably a stronger case for defamation if they had actually said "Winmar has been a living a lie and capitalising on it ever since"

Scott said, "My recollection was that St Kilda won and Nicky lifted his jumper saying, 'That was a gutsy effort. We have got heart'. Now it's been misconstrued." Pretty tame stuff. So he remembers it wrong... Pfft.

Sheahan said, "The only person who knows what he meant is Nicky Winmar. He now says he was pointing to the colour of his skin. Unlike some of the people I work with, I'm going to consider it before I give an answer. I was at Victoria Park that day ... and I reckon I left the ground thinking he was talking about guts."

Both of them are just giving their own memory from having been there. So what if they're wrong?

I don't know.... I hear public figures saying WAY more defamatory stuff than this about politicians, celebrities and past & present sportsmen. ALL THE TIME... Sam Newman himself would've been defamed at least a million times before if we're going to use these comments about Winmar as the standard for slander.

I'm not sure exactly what Newman said... Something about it being "morphed into all that" by activists.

Nicky is obviously pissed off and he sees it as slanderous and/or offensive. He wants his day in court so that's that really.

Just because guys like Sam and Don Scott do this regularly doesn't make it ok.

Sheehan knows better but his values are apparent through who he is associating with

 

[iBeng]

You CANNOT have absolute free speech and absolute freedom of consequence of said free speech, the two do not coexist, they cant, it just doesnt work.

Free Speech is the PLATFORM to have your voice HEARD. It means those in power cant silence your opinion.

It absolutely doesnt meant people cant call you on your shit and in this day and age that comes with potential financial ramifications.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

How very American of Winmar.

"I disagree with you"

'LAWSUIT LAWSUIT LAWSUIT !!!'

Could you please provide some source for where Winmar has stated that he's filing a lawsuit?

I can't find anything. Odd.

 

[Blackas87]

Exactly, and in this setting and scenario its pretty damn plain all three of these people made the comment VERY PUBLICLY for their own gain.

Why else would they possibly claim this? To try and prove Winmar a liar? To try and explain away any racism that exists from fans? To ease their own guilt?

What possible reason could they have to make this claim that doesnt benefit themselves through attention?

If they believe a piece of history is incorrect, and the public should know they have been duped, they are allowed to say it.

Im not saying that’s what happened

It’s called Freedom of the Press.

 

[Grrr]

So it's an iconic photo, it doesn't mean the story cannot be manipulated. I was there that day also and though I was just a kid I do have issues with the way it has been reported by some in the media also.
Just to clarify, not just black guys received racial abuse. . No player in that time in my opinion received more abuse than Daicos in my opinion. So I have an issue in particular with the portrayal of Vic park and Collingwood fans by SBS , ABC etc. As I said also only Nicky will know why he lifted his shirt. To say these guys are trying to whitewash history though is as offensive as any other attempts by the photographer /SBS trying to manipulate the story to benefit from it.

So, maybe , court will be a good thing.

Who said it has been manipulated. 20 years later Sam and Don decide to rewrite what has bee acknowledged and pretty much accepted. In a time of Black Lives Matter, coincidence, I doubt it.
Daicos was one of the most respected players ever to play the game. I went to plenty of football in that time and don't remember Daicos copping anything other than f***en Daicos has done it again.

 

[Black white]

The ONLY PERSON who knows WHY he did what he did is Winmar himself.

Did he do it because people in the crowd were shouting racist insults at him and he chose to show them his heritage through his skin colour to sh*t them up?

Or did he show his gut region as a way to show the crowd he/the team had guts in counter to their chants?

Ill be honest, if I had to bank my money, Id go with option A and lock it in Eddie.

I dont recall any other player EVER using a gesture like pointing to their stomach, with shirt raised, to indicate "Guts".

I don't recall any other player showing their gut to indicate colour of their skin?

Once you mentioned Hitler you lost your argument

 

[iBeng]

If they believe a piece of history is incorrect, and the public should know they have been duped, they are allowed to say it.

Im not saying that’s what happened

It’s called Freedom of the Press.

So if I started a podcast where I started claiming the Holocaust never happened and I had the same social presence as these three blokes, that'd just be me practicing Freedom of the Press?

Or if they discussed on one of their podcasts that its their opinion the Holocaust never happened? They just believe a piece of history is incorrect?

 

[The King!]

Yeah, maybe...

Probably a stronger case for defamation if they had actually said "Winmar has been a living a lie and capitalising on it ever since"

Scott said, "My recollection was that St Kilda won and Nicky lifted his jumper saying, 'That was a gutsy effort. We have got heart'. Now it's been misconstrued." Pretty tame stuff. So he remembers it wrong... Pfft.

Sheahan said, "The only person who knows what he meant is Nicky Winmar. He now says he was pointing to the colour of his skin. Unlike some of the people I work with, I'm going to consider it before I give an answer. I was at Victoria Park that day ... and I reckon I left the ground thinking he was talking about guts."

Both of them are just giving their own memory from having been there. So what if they're wrong? The media gets sh*t wrong all the time.

I don't know.... I hear public figures saying WAY more defamatory stuff than this about politicians, celebrities and past & present sportsmen... People constantly smearing others. Sam Newman himself would've been defamed at least a million times before if we're going to use these comments about Winmar as the standard for slander.

I'm not sure exactly what Newman said... Something about it being "morphed into all that" by activists. Did he say anything bad about Winmar, or are we just going on the "general vibe of it... like Mabo... and the... vibe.."

I suppose it would be a really big deal if that incident and photo was your meal ticket in life and you had people questioning whether it was true. But geez... it was 27 years ago! You'd think there would some kind of statute of limitations about people recollecting ancient history.

yep and its been turned into a racist debate and attack on Winmar, an attempt to rewrite history it judt wasn't.

 

[iBeng]

I don't recall any other player showing their gut to indicate colour of their skin?

Once you mentioned Hitler you lost your argument

My argument stands.

And no player responds to the crowd after winning a match by showing their skin if it isnt in retaliation to racist remarks, lets me not ignorant about this, please.

 

[Black white]

Who said it has been manipulated. 20 years later Sam and Don decide to rewrite what has bee acknowledged and pretty much accepted. In a time of Black Lives Matter, coincidence, I doubt it.
Daicos was one of the most respected players ever to play the game. I went to plenty of football in that time and don't remember Daicos copping anything other than f***en Daicos has done it again.

Rubbish.

No, I'm sure all tigers fans were angels.

He was called wog , f n wog, slippery wog, get a haircut Daicos you FN wog.

You'll be saying tiger fans Neve abused David Cloke and Travis Cloke next.
Son of Judas cxxt was yelled out at Travis's first game at Collingwood v Richmond.

We have / had abusive fans , your club is NO different.

 

[Blackas87]

So if I started a podcast where I started claiming the Holocaust never happened and I had the same social presence as these three blokes, that'd just be me practicing Freedom of the Press?

Or if they discussed on one of their podcasts that its their opinion the Holocaust never happened? They just believe a piece of history is incorrect?

Yeah you can, not many would listen to you though because most people are educated.

Just like flat earthers are allowed to say scientist are wrong, the earth isn’t round. Haven’t seen a scientist take a flat earth activate to court yet.

 

[iBeng]

Just so we have the right idea here, the argument is:

These 3 media personalities believe, without any actual evidence, that Winmar lifted his shirt and pointed at him self to..."Show he had guts" in response to crowd taunting after his side won. And NOT in response to racist taunts shouted at him throughout game. And its their belief that is the true story about the situation and not what Winmar himself has explained it was.

And now people are angry at Winmar for possibly suing these 3 media personalities for defamation.

Whats hard to see about that?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Why else would they possibly claim this? To try and prove Winmar a liar? To try and explain away any racism that exists from fans? To ease their own guilt?

In my opinion, it all comes to down to politician and Murdoch led 'right versus left' shit that crusty old ****ers that read the Herald-Sun, watch Fox News and listen to 3AW have idioticly lapped up.

At the time, there was definitely confusion about what Winmar actually meant. That's a fact.

But subsequently, it's been clarified by those involved.

But no, the crusty old ****ers that have been brainwashed into thinking the 'lefts under the bed' are coming for them to steal their stuff make it about some bizarre and illogical conspiracy.


Fair enough, at the time you jabe thought something. No issue with that.

But then, once it's actually confirmed as fact what happened - to still make it about 'right versus left' is just moronic. And it's THE reason a normal conversation between old friends about old times has turned into a shit fight.

 

[Black white]

My argument stands.

And no player responds to the crowd after winning a match by showing their skin if it isnt in retaliation to racist remarks, lets me not ignorant about this, please.

Yes, let's not.

 

[iBeng]

Yeah you can, not many would listen to you though because most people are educated.

Just like flat earthers are allowed to say scientist are wrong, the earth isn’t round. Haven’t seen a scientist take a flat earth activate to court yet.

I dont have the audience these three people have. I dont have a podcast with sponsors. I dont make a living talking about shit I know is going to cause controversy and bring me in views and clicks and MONEY!

 

[raffrox]

Nicky is obviously pissed off and he sees it as slanderous and/or offensive. He wants his day in court so that's that really.

Just because guys like Sam and Don Scott do this regularly doesn't make it ok.

Sheehan knows better but his values are apparent through who he is associating with

bluespooner got any more to say?

 

[iBeng]

Yes, let's not.

This is three people trying to rewrite history on a historic moment to try and pretend racism doesnt happen in the AFL.

And they KNOW this would get them attention and views and ultimately money.

Its a game played out so much in media that people dont see it when it smacks them in the damn face.

 

[Blackas87]

I dont have the audience these three people have. I dont have a podcast with sponsors. I dont make a living talking about sh*t I know is going to cause controversy and bring me in views and clicks and MONEY!

But if you wanted to you could.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Yeah, maybe...

Probably a stronger case for defamation if they had actually said "Winmar has been a living a lie and capitalising on it ever since"

Scott said, "My recollection was that St Kilda won and Nicky lifted his jumper saying, 'That was a gutsy effort. We have got heart'. Now it's been misconstrued." Pretty tame stuff. So he remembers it wrong... Pfft.

Sheahan said, "The only person who knows what he meant is Nicky Winmar. He now says he was pointing to the colour of his skin. Unlike some of the people I work with, I'm going to consider it before I give an answer. I was at Victoria Park that day ... and I reckon I left the ground thinking he was talking about guts."

Both of them are just giving their own memory from having been there. So what if they're wrong? The media gets sh*t wrong all the time.

I don't know.... I hear public figures saying WAY more defamatory stuff than this about politicians, celebrities and past & present sportsmen... People constantly smearing others. Sam Newman himself would've been defamed at least a million times before if we're going to use these comments about Winmar as the standard for slander.

I suppose it would be a really big deal if that incident and photo was your meal ticket in life and you had people questioning whether it was true. But geez... it was 27 years ago! You'd think there would some kind of statute of limitations about people recollecting ancient history.

I'm not sure exactly what Newman said... Something about it being "morphed into all that" by activists. Did he say anything bad about Winmar, or are we just going on the "general vibe of it..."

Well summed up, if that’s what they said, he had 0% chance of suing, better off suing the media for blowing it up they have.

 

[iBeng]

But if you wanted to you could.

I wouldnt though because I dont want to make money out of being a morally bankrupt, borderline racist attention whore.

But hey, thats just vanilla old me.