No Oppo Supporters Non Bulldog Footy Talk - Bulldogs only - Part 4

[Mattdougie]

Bruce "I am liking Cox"

That’s the rumour

 

[Leon]

I kinda feel sorry for Norf.

Nope, kick them while they’re down.

Kick them.

Repeatedly.

And hard.

In the nuts.

With steel capped boots.

 

[Dry Rot]

Nope, kick them while they’re down.

Kick them.

Repeatedly.

And hard.

In the nuts.

With steel capped boots.

I have been as busy as buggery lately, and just now hit up the round's scores from afl.com.

I scrolled down through the games until the last one tonight.

I looked at the final score, blinked and refocused, looked again and had only thought:

LEON!!!!

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Toby Greene loses his lunch money again...with best wishes from the MRO.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Or if the coach never takes plan B off the shelf.

Is it players being incapable of executing the plans or is it the lack of tactical responsiveness to whatever's happening when the game gets under way? I see it as more the latter.

Bevo has shown he can pull different levers but it seems that too often he leaves things as they are, even if they're not working.

Or he pulls the wrong lever ("hmmm ... first quarter went well and Dunkley got a lot of it, think I'll swing him into the ruck now").

I really like you as a poster and you're always reasonable, so I'll reply here rather than getting into a slagging match on any other thread on the topic...
I don't think this is correct. A lot of these things are REALLY hard to enact during a quarter without really strong, experienced leaders out on the field.

Sometimes as a player, it is actually really hard to even get the sense of what isn't going right and being able to enact those changes is really hard. You need a seasoned team to be able to do this - Take the Hawks as an example, Through their power years, they had guys like Hodge, Roughy, Mitchell etc who were seasoned leaders and were able to make adjustments in game to get things back on track. This very week, we saw that the Hawks were unable to do that when Essendon started to get on a roll and were kicking goal after goal. Now Clarko hasn't forgotten how to coach in the last few years, and I'm sure he hasn't decided to ditch any so called 'plan B'. It is not that the players don't get his message - He has proven year after year that they do. He just didn't have the players who were seasoned and composed and experienced enough to arrest the slide and make adjustments during the quarter (Bev was also vocal about runners during games a year or two ago too). The more time communicating with young players the better.

In the 2015/2016 years, we had players like Murphy, Boyd, Morris, who were able to do this competently - all of which have gone. Now we have a young captain in Bont, who isn't there yet, and our other senior players aren't those leader types (Wood going down didn't help from that perspective). Another key factor is the inexperience in defense - I think when Cordy, Keith, Crozier and Williams have played a little more footy together, they might be able to pick up and enact these changes during quarters.

Bev has shown on numerous occasions, he can make changes (important to remember that a lot of the changes might not be player X to the ruck etc. Sometimes they are very slight or positional, which are impossible to pick up on TV or a change in roll - For example I'm not sure what the move was for Bont in the second and third quarters, it didn't seem a hard tag, but he didn't just fall out of the game by accident, Scott did something and it worked. He obviously also fixed a few things in regards to ball movement and cutting us off across the wing - half forward area. It is easy to see that something changed. What and how is a different story, especially when not at the ground) A perfect example is the Melbourne game - The players weathered the storm at the end of the second, made adjustments and fixed them in the third.

The Cats are another perfect example of how hard it is to have players enact the slight changes that are needed in game. They are a good side, and despite the rubbish that people say, Chris Scott is a really good coach. They are also a very seasoned side with a lot of experience, but they couldn't stop the flow in the first, they couldn't make the necessary adjustments and they couldn't get the game back on even terms until after quarter time and direction from the coach. The changes made, got them back in the game. Their talent, experience and class did the rest. They needed that quarter time break. You could argue, that we then should have made further adjustments - maybe we did and they didn't work, maybe we tried to counter their counter, or maybe we tried to continue doing what worked in the first, but I'd say that against a really good side (I actually think they will make the granny) it is very difficult to get back on track. I'd be more concerned if something like that happened against an inexperienced side like a Gold Coast, North etc. Our issues have largely been in quarter - Port in the third before we got any of the game back on level terms, Brisbane in the second etc.

I've been lucky enough to do some coaching (with no great success, it must be said!) but that part is really difficult. You can identify the problem, you can identify possible solutions, but without access to the players, or without access to experienced leaders who can communicate and make the necessary changes on field, it is really, really challenging to do much about it.

Sorry for the really long post.

 

[Fossie 32]

Toby Greene loses his lunch money again...with best wishes from the MRO.

 

[mackem]

I really like you as a poster and you're always reasonable, so I'll reply here rather than getting into a slagging match on any other thread on the topic...
I don't think this is correct. A lot of these things are REALLY hard to enact during a quarter without really strong, experienced leaders out on the field.

Sometimes as a player, it is actually really hard to even get the sense of what isn't going right and being able to enact those changes is really hard. You need a seasoned team to be able to do this - Take the Hawks as an example, Through their power years, they had guys like Hodge, Roughy, Mitchell etc who were seasoned leaders and were able to make adjustments in game to get things back on track. This very week, we saw that the Hawks were unable to do that when Essendon started to get on a roll and were kicking goal after goal. Now Clarko hasn't forgotten how to coach in the last few years, and I'm sure he hasn't decided to ditch any so called 'plan B'. It is not that the players don't get his message - He has proven year after year that they do. He just didn't have the players who were seasoned and composed and experienced enough to arrest the slide and make adjustments during the quarter (Bev was also vocal about runners during games a year or two ago too). The more time communicating with young players the better.

In the 2015/2016 years, we had players like Murphy, Boyd, Morris, who were able to do this competently - all of which have gone. Now we have a young captain in Bont, who isn't there yet, and our other senior players aren't those leader types (Wood going down didn't help from that perspective). Another key factor is the inexperience in defense - I think when Cordy, Keith, Crozier and Williams have played a little more footy together, they might be able to pick up and enact these changes during quarters.

Bev has shown on numerous occasions, he can make changes (important to remember that a lot of the changes might not be player X to the ruck etc. Sometimes they are very slight or positional, which are impossible to pick up on TV or a change in roll - For example I'm not sure what the move was for Bont in the second and third quarters, it didn't seem a hard tag, but he didn't just fall out of the game by accident, Scott did something and it worked. He obviously also fixed a few things in regards to ball movement and cutting us off across the wing - half forward area. It is easy to see that something changed. What and how is a different story, especially when not at the ground) A perfect example is the Melbourne game - The players weathered the storm at the end of the second, made adjustments and fixed them in the third.

The Cats are another perfect example of how hard it is to have players enact the slight changes that are needed in game. They are a good side, and despite the rubbish that people say, Chris Scott is a really good coach. They are also a very seasoned side with a lot of experience, but they couldn't stop the flow in the first, they couldn't make the necessary adjustments and they couldn't get the game back on even terms until after quarter time and direction from the coach. The changes made, got them back in the game. Their talent, experience and class did the rest. They needed that quarter time break. You could argue, that we then should have made further adjustments - maybe we did and they didn't work, maybe we tried to counter their counter, or maybe we tried to continue doing what worked in the first, but I'd say that against a really good side (I actually think they will make the granny) it is very difficult to get back on track. I'd be more concerned if something like that happened against an inexperienced side like a Gold Coast, North etc. Our issues have largely been in quarter - Port in the third before we got any of the game back on level terms, Brisbane in the second etc.

I've been lucky enough to do some coaching (with no great success, it must be said!) but that part is really difficult. You can identify the problem, you can identify possible solutions, but without access to the players, or without access to experienced leaders who can communicate and make the necessary changes on field, it is really, really challenging to do much about it.

Sorry for the really long post.

I normally give long posts a miss after the first couple of paragraph's but I read yours all the way through and found it very decisive and interesting.

 

[dogwatch]

I really like you as a poster and you're always reasonable, so I'll reply here rather than getting into a slagging match on any other thread on the topic...
I don't think this is correct. A lot of these things are REALLY hard to enact during a quarter without really strong, experienced leaders out on the field.

Sometimes as a player, it is actually really hard to even get the sense of what isn't going right and being able to enact those changes is really hard. You need a seasoned team to be able to do this - Take the Hawks as an example, Through their power years, they had guys like Hodge, Roughy, Mitchell etc who were seasoned leaders and were able to make adjustments in game to get things back on track. This very week, we saw that the Hawks were unable to do that when Essendon started to get on a roll and were kicking goal after goal. Now Clarko hasn't forgotten how to coach in the last few years, and I'm sure he hasn't decided to ditch any so called 'plan B'. It is not that the players don't get his message - He has proven year after year that they do. He just didn't have the players who were seasoned and composed and experienced enough to arrest the slide and make adjustments during the quarter (Bev was also vocal about runners during games a year or two ago too). The more time communicating with young players the better.

In the 2015/2016 years, we had players like Murphy, Boyd, Morris, who were able to do this competently - all of which have gone. Now we have a young captain in Bont, who isn't there yet, and our other senior players aren't those leader types (Wood going down didn't help from that perspective). Another key factor is the inexperience in defense - I think when Cordy, Keith, Crozier and Williams have played a little more footy together, they might be able to pick up and enact these changes during quarters.

Bev has shown on numerous occasions, he can make changes (important to remember that a lot of the changes might not be player X to the ruck etc. Sometimes they are very slight or positional, which are impossible to pick up on TV or a change in roll - For example I'm not sure what the move was for Bont in the second and third quarters, it didn't seem a hard tag, but he didn't just fall out of the game by accident, Scott did something and it worked. He obviously also fixed a few things in regards to ball movement and cutting us off across the wing - half forward area. It is easy to see that something changed. What and how is a different story, especially when not at the ground) A perfect example is the Melbourne game - The players weathered the storm at the end of the second, made adjustments and fixed them in the third.

The Cats are another perfect example of how hard it is to have players enact the slight changes that are needed in game. They are a good side, and despite the rubbish that people say, Chris Scott is a really good coach. They are also a very seasoned side with a lot of experience, but they couldn't stop the flow in the first, they couldn't make the necessary adjustments and they couldn't get the game back on even terms until after quarter time and direction from the coach. The changes made, got them back in the game. Their talent, experience and class did the rest. They needed that quarter time break. You could argue, that we then should have made further adjustments - maybe we did and they didn't work, maybe we tried to counter their counter, or maybe we tried to continue doing what worked in the first, but I'd say that against a really good side (I actually think they will make the granny) it is very difficult to get back on track. I'd be more concerned if something like that happened against an inexperienced side like a Gold Coast, North etc. Our issues have largely been in quarter - Port in the third before we got any of the game back on level terms, Brisbane in the second etc.

I've been lucky enough to do some coaching (with no great success, it must be said!) but that part is really difficult. You can identify the problem, you can identify possible solutions, but without access to the players, or without access to experienced leaders who can communicate and make the necessary changes on field, it is really, really challenging to do much about it.

Sorry for the really long post.

These are all good observations but I don't see how we differ. In fact many of your points support the case I've been making for some weeks about lack of onfield leadership. (And again - to head off those who would misinterpret - that's not saying Bont can't lead).

You are saying Bevo can make good moves. So was I.

I was responding to a Mutt post which reflected on some people saying Bevo has no Plan B. His point - which is a fair one - was that there's no point having a plan B if the players can't implement them (eg Dunkley to the ruck). Hence it's bad coaching. I was adding that Bevo may have other plans but in the instances discussed v Geelong they are either flawed or he doesn't implement them. Surely it wouldn't have needed a HT or 3QT break to shift Bruce to the ruck?

 

[Hard Ball Get]

These are all good observations but I don't see how we differ. In fact many of your points support the case I've been making for some weeks about lack of onfield leadership. (And again - to head off those who would misinterpret - that's not saying Bont can't lead).

You are saying Bevo can make good moves. So was I.

I was responding to a Mutt post which reflected on some people saying Bevo has no Plan B. His point - which is a fair one - was that there's no point having a plan B if the players can't implement them (eg Dunkley to the ruck). Hence it's bad coaching. I was adding that Bevo may have other plans but in the instances discussed v Geelong they are either flawed or he doesn't implement them. Surely it wouldn't have needed a HT or 3QT break to shift Bruce to the ruck?

Fair enough, the part we differ I think is that they are implemented but not able to take hold for the reasons I mentioned above, or the changes we may think are needed actually aren't...
For example to use the Bruce one, I dont think that works vs Geelong. Timmy was going ok in the middle and wasnt rucking around the ground. No way Bruce has the motor to go with Blicavs and probably would have been counter productive because they started chopping us off across wing half forward - an area Bruce could potentially lead up to.
I get that we want to see the change but they have to be helpful.

 

[Boyd oh Boyd]

Hawthorn refusing to play any youth despite being no chance for finals. Will be a frustrating rebuild for their supporters with an approach like this.

 

[dogwatch]

Hawthorn refusing to play any youth despite being no chance for finals. Will be a frustrating rebuild for their supporters with an approach like this.

Do they have any youth?

I thought they just plucked mature age players from other clubs whenever there was a vacancy on their list.

 

[weltschmerz]

Do they have any youth?

I thought they just plucked mature age players from other clubs whenever there was a vacancy on their list.

They did make a good pick in Will Day. At the time I thought he was a reach with their pick 12, but he's been playing really well.

 

[Yojimbo]

Do they have any youth?

James Cousins, Will Day, Oliver Hanrahan, Jacob Koschitzke, Mitch Lewis, Finn Maginess, Dylan Moore, Josh Morris, Harry Morrison,
Jackson Ross, Jack Scrimshaw, Matthew Walker and James Worpel on the main list.

And Will Golds, Damon Greaves, Emerson Jeka, Changkuoth Jiath, Harrison Jones, Harry Pepper and 208cm Ruck Ned Reeves on
their expansive rookie list.

Cousins, Day, Hanrahan, Lewis, Morrison, Scrimshaw, Worpel all have exposed potential some of it blue chip.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Story from the Herald Sun that has the potential to have some pretty serious ramifications, particularly after the Aaron Hernandez publicity.

 

[Mantis Toboggan]

Story from the Herald Sun that has the potential to have some pretty serious ramifications, particularly after the Aaron Hernandez publicity.

View attachment 949997

Very scary stuff. Does anyone know the latest on Liam Picken?

 

[Mojorisin]

Very scary stuff. Does anyone know the latest on Liam Picken?

it's a condition that currently can only be diagnosed by analysis of the brain post death. We still no very little about it apart from the fact it effects memory and personality and is often linked to depression

 

[Mojorisin]

Riccardi finally gets the rising star nomination only a week late

 

[Mojorisin]

Freo going with three tall forwards against the defence of balta vlastuin and broad vs lobb, hogan and tabaner

 

[random__hero]

Crows halfway to their first win.

 

[Next Waiting]

That Hawks goal right on 3/4 time probably not what Adelaide wanted but the hawks still need to outscore them by 4 goals in the last quarter to win.

Dare to dream Adelaide and #lolhawks

 

[CarnTheScray]

I forgot the footy was on tonight. Wow Hawks they've dropped the ball haven't they.

 

[random__hero]

Surely Radelaide can’t cough this up

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Footy on a Tuesday does not compute

 

[bresker]

I can only imagine the pain if we got Wingard but then knew we missed B Smith.

Who got picked with the trades we gave up for Bruce, out of masochistic interest?

Port are good at moving on flogs for overs.

 

[LittleG]

Owen is leaving Adelaide. He was just starting to like the wine too.