Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVI

[BrunoV]

I doubt it will.

So that leave us with what, 4 guys victim of the modern incarnation of stolen generation, who would not volunteer documents relevant to the claim, who don't feel strongly enough about their position to take it further, and whose rights are preserved just walking away from it all?

And it's all unfair because there was a cover up?

What has to happen here, because it would be fair? An allegation is made and the accused just accepts he is guilty?

 

[BrunoV]

i think the difference is Hird was an easier scapegoat given he was a relatively new coach and Essendon had Bomber in the box as the alternative.

In this case, this involves a flag contenders coach (a contender which has come out of years of underperformance in a non-vic market) and a saviour coach who has joined a team in a similar doldrum....and with it's own issues of existence within the vic market.

Anyways, it's hard to know b/c it's been blurred by the process.
Maybe they've seen enough to know they can bear any brunt of the outcomes. Maybe they can see there won't be any. Or maybe they've seen it's gonna blow up in their faces anyway and they should extricate themselves from it as quick as possible to minimise damage. Who knows what happens next.
It should never have involved the AFL. Hawks should have referred to VicPol or AFP or anyone other than the AFL, and just let the AFL know

Im not entirely sure how the hawks don't get done for disrepute now.
Botched process, leaked info, code and it's employees dragged through the media, etc.

it feels eerily similar though.
Is the HRC the WADA in this scenario?

On the young coach easier point, what percentage of people want to believe it about Clarkson because he is a bad tempered ****wit?

It seems like a significant majority of this board. I wonder how that would be reflected in wider society.

He seemed to effortlessly assume the mantle of public enemy number 1. Even if you're that guy and you have a defence you're going to struggle in the court of public opinion.

Nothing that happened has any bearing on the premiership of consequence to the AFL. Hawthorn's relationship with Clarkson has been beyond repair for a long time now.

There is no reason to go easy on Clarkson unless he can defend himself because he has no one batting for him. What can he threaten at this point that wouldn't be wild speculation on our part (I.e. he knows whether the skeletons are buried)? He walks away and leaves North high and dry? Im sure the AFL will hate having more leverage over North. He sues the ABC and Hawthorn? What does that have to do with the AFL?

Unless I'm mistaken hasn't this whole thing been run and controlled by Hawthorn? The AFL has clearly started to throw its weight around to bring the farce to an end but it wasn't responsible for any of it.

 

[astrowizzle]

I can't even
MRO should stop wasting everyone's time

The all has to sort this shit out. Christian should be sacked. The inconsistencies, in particular for certain teams is turning me right off this game.

Do they realise that members fund a lot of this shit can of an organisation

 

[citizen-erased]

On the young coach easier point, what percentage of people want to believe it about Clarkson because he is a bad tempered *******?

It seems like a significant majority of this board. I wonder how that would be reflected in wider society.

He seemed to effortlessly assume the mantle of public enemy number 1. Even if you're that guy and you have a defence you're going to struggle in the court of public opinion.

Nothing that happened has any bearing on the premiership of consequence to the AFL. Hawthorn's relationship with Clarkson has been beyond repair for a long time now.

There is no reason to go easy on Clarkson unless he can defend himself because he has no one batting for him. What can he threaten at this point that wouldn't be wild speculation on our part (I.e. he knows whether the skeletons are buried)? He walks away and leaves North high and dry? Im sure the AFL will hate having more leverage over North. He sues the ABC and Hawthorn? What does that have to do with the AFL?

Unless I'm mistaken hasn't this whole thing been run and controlled by Hawthorn? The AFL has clearly started to throw its weight around to bring the farce to an end but it wasn't responsible for any of it.

Probably a lot out there with heavy bias

Hawks fans: club did the right thing. Found a "wrongdoing" and tried to investigate further. Can't punish us
North/Lions fans (noting very few go into bat for Burt: This is the hawks fault. No due process. Clarko/Fagan unfairly dealt with
Axe to grind fans: Burn Clarko at the stake....and i guess Fagan and Burt too so we can cover the bias

For mine, once it became an AFL muddled mess i stopped following. I'm surprised at the language Gil used yday, but then also not. Does remind me when we were exonerated of all charges in 2015.

Truth seems like it lies somewhere in the middle, as has been alluded to here and there recently.
Some overstepping of boundaries, perhaps with the best intentions but also lacking some self awareness.

Much like our case i guess, we may never know the full story of what happened.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

So that leave us with what, 4 guys victim of the modern incarnation of stolen generation, who would not volunteer documents relevant to the claim, who don't feel strongly enough about their position to take it further, and whose rights are preserved just walking away from it all?

And it's all unfair because there was a cover up?

What has to happen here, because it would be fair? An allegation is made and the accused just accepts he is guilty?

you are wrong on two counts already,
1. Fagan said in his statement that he has seen the documents now (and to digress specifically says he alone is vindicated, no mention of Clarkson or Burt).
2. The victims have already indicated they will take the matter to the Human Rights Commission

 

[BrunoV]

you are wrong on two counts already,
1. Fagan said in his statement that he has seen the documents now (and to digress specifically says he alone is vindicated, no mention of Clarkson or Burt).
2. The victims have already indicated they will take the matter to the Human Rights Commission

I'm aware of 2 at least that it is being alluded to by Robbo.

I was responding to the post I quoted which was to the effect that they would not being going to the HRC.

Fagan released a statement stating he was vindicated or that he alone was vindicated. It's not for him to comment on the other 2, is it?

 

[Old Campaigner]

So that leave us with what, 4 guys victim of the modern incarnation of stolen generation, who would not volunteer documents relevant to the claim, who don't feel strongly enough about their position to take it further, and whose rights are preserved just walking away from it all?

From what I heard they were happy to produce the relevant documents, just not in the specific order that the coaches wanted so the process stalled.

I think the coaches wanted to see the documents before any mediation started and the accusers wanted to release them as part of the mediation process.

I don't pretend to understand the implications of one course over the other but it obviously mattered enough to both sides that it effectively put a stop to the investigation.

 

[bombadeer]

It’s going to be very embarrassing for the AFL if there is a civil case, with on outcome that favours the plaintiff.

But Gil won’t be around to face the music at that point, so perhaps it’s a solid move by the the AFL.

If neither party will talk to you, there’s not a lot you can do to investigate the allegations. I’ve only been following it lightly, but my understanding is that is what happened.

 

[Vindicater]

Best of luck to Narkle in Adelaide.

 

[Megabattimus]

Glad somebody picked him up! Hope it works out for him!

 

[frodos gardener]

She's just a person, with values, faults and biases like any other. As a journalist I don't think she's half bad. I don't think she's exactly a feminist. Or at least, she'd probably be second wave if anything. She's more of a one-eyed Tigers fan than anything, bias wise. And she could do with a little self-awareness, but so could they all.

Hard disagree. She’s not “one of us” and I’ll explain why.

She thrives on the downfall of others; it’s what keeps her in her job(s). For Caroline to discuss and influence the demise of people’s employment in football is for her to be succcessful and pleasing her bosses.

She is a bad human being who does not actually care who is harmed in the process.

**** Caro

 

[BrunoV]

From what I heard they were happy to produce the relevant documents, just not in the specific order that the coaches wanted so the process stalled.

I think the coaches wanted to see the documents before any mediation started and the accusers wanted to release them as part of the mediation process.

I don't pretend to understand the implications of one course over the other but it obviously mattered enough to both sides that it effectively put a stop to the investigation.

Not producing the documents until mediation is not producing the documents.

You don't agree to mediate when the other party is withholding documents.

Mediation is largely worthless if you can't prepare your position.

 

[Lore]

Hard disagree. She’s not “one of us” and I’ll explain why.

She thrives on the downfall of others; it’s what keeps her in her job(s). For Caroline to discuss and influence the demise of people’s employment in football is for her to be succcessful and pleasing her bosses.

She is a bad human being who does not actually care who is harmed in the process.

* Caro

Unless you and I are journalists I certainly don’t think she’s one of us. But she’s one of them and not even the worst one. And all of them are human, as much as it might make your heart beat faster to think of them as demons from the spirit world.

 

[frodos gardener]

Unless you and I are journalists I certainly don’t think she’s one of us. But she’s one of them and not even the worst one. And all of them are human, as much as it might make your heart beat faster to think of them as demons from the spirit world.

Not a demon, just a bad person on the whole. Does she sleep at night? Hell yeah she does. Would you? I wouldn’t, if I were her.

 

[ant555]

Best of luck to Narkle in Adelaide.

Yep . Sad to see him go as he was doing some good work behind the scenes with us but happy to see him get another chance .

 

[Lore]

 

[naraku]

Yep . Sad to see him go as he was doing some good work behind the scenes with us but happy to see him get another chance .

Would of loved to of picked him up for the reasons you mentioned but also, I don't think you can have too many mids...and I wouldn't of minded seeing if he could be rebounding defender too.

 

[P Money]

Hard disagree. She’s not “one of us” and I’ll explain why.

She thrives on the downfall of others; it’s what keeps her in her job(s). For Caroline to discuss and influence the demise of people’s employment in football is for her to be succcessful and pleasing her bosses.

She is a bad human being who does not actually care who is harmed in the process.

* Caro

Without a doubt she has built her career on attempts to bring people down and expedite/cause the demise of their employment, and really doesn't appear to care about the harm she causes. I'll admit I didn't follow her closely prior to the saga but the articles (Walkley award winning if you can believe that) she wrote, 90% conjecture, rumour and opinion about what happened or might have happened etc, became more and more personal attacks designed to ensure that heads rolled. I'd guess that the attention, notoriety and career progression she gained from that have lead her to her current path.

I don't really want to cast aspersions on her as a person, but professionally she is an amoral parasite that thrives on the downfall of others and really has nothing positive to contribute to the landscape in any way. I mean we are talking about sport here. She's not a political commentator, she's not a hard hitting investigative journalist protecting the public interest. Do we really need this type of "journalism" (very very loose interpretation of the word) in sport?

Her latest report about Cripps not staying with the team, and the extrapolation about how fractured Carlton is as a result is a perfect example. Nevermind that it was wrong (I'd wager the majority of what she reports is wrong, but in this game you're only remembered for the ones you get right), the design of that reporting is to heap more pressure on people leading a club going through a tough time, with the ultimate aim being sackings which she can then report on and gain more attention/clicks as a result. As much as heck Carton (and really heck Carlton), heck Caro even more.

 

[P Money]

If this isn't classic AFL I don't know what is. Gotta be seen to do something, but want to protect the brand ahead of anything else. So the 'bad' thing that happened is the most minor infraction they could conjure up - the handling of an investigation.

 

[doug85]

Paywalled

 

[citizen-erased]

2 things

I think the hawks deserve the whack for what happened. Club has acknowledged their faults in player welfare.
Which is exactly what we got done for - governance and conduct unbecoming

The other will be the governance of the investigation as it's impacted 2 high profile employees, the code and has done so quite publicly.

If precedence is anything to go by, and we know it isn't, i don't see how they keep their picks this year.
But i doubt they lose them.

 

[Lore]

2 things

I think the hawks deserve the whack for what happened. Club has acknowledged their faults in player welfare.
Which is exactly what we got done for - governance and conduct unbecoming

The other will be the governance of the investigation as it's impacted 2 high profile employees, the code and has done so quite publicly.

If precedence is anything to go by, and we know it isn't, i don't see how they keep their picks this year.
But i doubt they lose them.

if they lose their picks that would be LOLz af. Imagine selling all your assets and tanking for Harley Reid and coming away empty handed.

 

[citizen-erased]

if they lose their picks that would be LOLz af. Imagine selling all your assets and tanking for Harley Reid and coming away empty handed.

my gut feel is they know something is amiss.
They've gone from being sub-standard to beating the Saints, steamrolling the Eagles by the league record margin this year (i think) and being a genuinely tough opponent.

It would be a hard suspension to strip a club of a top 4 pick. If they keep climbing the ladder and the punishments haven't been handed down, my suspicions will grow. this is the AFL after all.

 

[Beerfish]

Paywalled

12ft.io

 

[Don Won]

12ft.io

I never seem to have any luck with these sorts of sites/tools. The page I now see from the Herald is a long exposition on cookies, am I doing it wrong?