Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

[andleanback]

Not in the midfield.
Strong leadership helps them. On and off field. You can not drive the standards without it.

Yeh I’m not saying as a midfielder. I’m saying they would’ve identified his strengths, found a role that suits him, let him develop, and made him excel.
Just look at guys like Dempsey and neale barely got near it in their first couple years but they just stack games in the vfl learning their craft, and now can come in and perform. It’s why i actually like the approach they’re taking with Tsatas and find it bemusing why fans wanted him straight back into the side after a few good vfl performances

 

[mike14]

I know it's different because they actually manage to win a few as well, but there's a stat going around that Port's last 4 finals loses are by an average of 56.5 points, which is actually higher than our last 4 loses average (45.3). When they lose, they lose big.

As for Geelong, I turn 43 this year and they've made 20 Prelims in my lifetime...

 

[crackers65]

‘96 and ‘99 were horrendous but give me losing a Prelim anyday compared to the rubbish we’ve last 20 years. At least it would mean we’d won a final.

What it does mean is that they have won a lot more games than they have lost over a sustained period. Always in with a premiership chance. Essendon of 80s and 90s.

 

[faible]

I know it's different because they actually manage to win a few as well, but there's a stat going around that Port's last 4 finals loses are by an average of 56.5 points, which is actually higher than our last 4 loses average (45.3). When they lose, they lose big.

As for Geelong, I turn 43 this year and they've made 20 Prelims in my lifetime...

Port's gamestyle and list under Hinkley has repeatedly not stood up to finals. Performs well during H&A, has the ability to really beat up on lesser sides, but can't go deep in to finals.

Under Hinkley:

259 H&A games for 159 wins = 61%

12 Finals games for 5 wins = 42%

Though against Geelong: 18 games total (incl. finals) for 6 wins.

They don't seem to match-up well against Geelong at all, by a massive margin their worst record under Hinkley.

 

[NAB777]

I know plenty do, but I am not sure how anyone could dislike Geelong. What a club they've become.

 

[ant555]

Yeh I’m not saying as a midfielder. I’m saying they would’ve identified his strengths, found a role that suits him, let him develop, and made him excel.
Just look at guys like Dempsey and neale barely got near it in their first couple years but they just stack games in the vfl learning their craft, and now can come in and perform. It’s why i actually like the approach they’re taking with Tsatas and find it bemusing why fans wanted him straight back into the side after a few good vfl performances

I agree. We have spent a lot of time playing Perkins and Cox at AFL level for development rather than at VFL level. It comes from the desperation for results that keeps building.
Then a percentage of our supporters blow a gasket when we don’t improve and start looking to trade players like Hobbs because he is playing out of position at AFL level.
At various stages Chris Scott has been accused of playing the senior guys too much as well but they manage to balance it out.

 

[Beerfish]

I know plenty do, but I am not sure how anyone could dislike Geelong. What a club they've become.

Outside GWS they're the only other team I could stomach winning.

 

[HirdyLannister]

I know plenty do, but I am not sure how anyone could dislike Geelong. What a club they've become.

Living in Geelong makes it insufferable.

 

[faible]

Outside GWS they're the only other team I could stomach winning.

I'd have been fine with Port too, mostly because I know exactly 0 Port supporters.

 

[jannissary]

I know plenty do, but I am not sure how anyone could dislike Geelong. What a club they've become.

some of the fans arrogance, reminds me of hawks fans in the early 2010s.

but i like watching them, they're a great team with a great culture

 

[ant555]

some of the fans arrogance, reminds me of hawks fans in the early 2010s.

but i like watching them, they're a great team with a great culture

Or ours before 2002.
Winning builds arrogance.

 

[astrowizzle]

‘96 and ‘99 were horrendous but give me losing a Prelim anyday compared to the rubbish we’ve last 20 years. At least it would mean we’d won a final.

99 made is a better team. They came out so hungry even in the pre season comp
I remember at the start of the season 2000 saying no one will beat this team and I was almos right bar some shit house umpiring efforts

 

[joey_jo_jo]

I agree. We have spent a lot of time playing Perkins and Cox at AFL level for development rather than at VFL level. It comes from the desperation for results that keeps building.
Then a percentage of our supporters blow a gasket when we don’t improve and start looking to trade players like Hobbs because he is playing out of position at AFL level.
At various stages Chris Scott has been accused of playing the senior guys too much as well but they manage to balance it out.

The way we are handling cox/perkins/menzie to name a few is why I'm starting to get a bit down on Scott and co. The inconsistency in philosophy.
I'm happy to see the patience with tsatas, hobbs, caddy, Roberts and the development of durham/martin/caldwell but then we see a totally different approach taken with other players. Why is perkins just given a plum midfield role in seniors without deserving it when guys like hobbs who are natural midfielders are made to play forward/vfl? Perkins should have spent the last two years either working on his midfield craft in vfl or playing forward flank at afl. We have wasted two years with him.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

99 made is a better team. They came out so hungry even in the pre season comp
I remember at the start of the season 2000 saying no one will beat this team and I was almos right bar some shit house umpiring efforts

Yeah I dont think we were really a dominant team in 96, from memory we got a bit of luck in week 2 of the finals getting to play eagles at G even though it was technically their home final.

I'm too young to remember 80s essendon but I don't think we had the level of consistency in 90s that cats have had last 20 years. We had down years like 97 and a lot of ok years amongst the really dominant years like 99, 2000. Even 93 I don't think we were dominant, just got on a big roll like the 2016 dogs.

 

[BrunoV]

Run the club as a business and implement a rigorous HR cycle plan like any other big business would = sustainable success.

And I don’t even rate some of the guys you’ve mentioned above.

Holmes aside, I probably haven't named a midfielder who has the potential to be a game breaking superstar. I'm not 100% sold that Holmes can become that although last night was pretty significant. The thing that sets him apart from so many of the guys who have similar attributes is that he blends everything. He's got the speed of Rozee but also his kicking and the physical strength that youd associate with a hardball specialist (e.g. something like Callan Ward).

It's not so much that I see the likes of Bruhn, Clark and Knevitt (although I find Knevitt intriguing) being elite players, it's more part of a stable platform of players. There has been a lot of talk about Bailey Smith joining, he's likely someone still able to provide that bit of star power / at least replace quite a bit of the Danger break from a stoppage (to then spray the ball).

It's pretty easy for them to trade in players and free agents to add star power when everything else functions as well as it does.

I do think the spine will be terrifying in a few seasons.

 

[Pweter]

Yeah I dont think we were really a dominant team in 96, from memory we got a bit of luck in week 2 of the finals getting to play eagles at G even though it was technically their home final.

I'm too young to remember 80s essendon but I don't think we had the level of consistency in 90s that cats have had last 20 years. We had down years like 97 and a lot of ok years amongst the really dominant years like 99, 2000. Even 93 I don't think we were dominant, just got on a big roll like the 2016 dogs.

We were plenty good enough often enough for us to be pretty arrogant and people to not like it. I think the arrogance comes with the territory, you expect to win and act accordingly which comes across as arrogance to loser clubs like we are now.

 

[Milanista28]

Holmes aside, I probably haven't named a midfielder who has the potential to be a game breaking superstar. I'm not 100% sold that Holmes can become that although last night was pretty significant. The thing that sets him apart from so many of the guys who have similar attributes is that he blends everything. He's got the speed of Rozee but also his kicking and the physical strength that youd associate with a hardball specialist (e.g. something like Callan Ward).

It's not so much that I see the likes of Bruhn, Clark and Knevitt (although I find Knevitt intriguing) being elite players, it's more part of a stable platform of players. There has been a lot of talk about Bailey Smith joining, he's likely someone still able to provide that bit of star power / at least replace quite a bit of the Danger break from a stoppage (to then spray the ball).

It's pretty easy for them to trade in players and free agents to add star power when everything else functions as well as it does.

I do think the spine will be terrifying in a few seasons.

Most of the guys you've mentioned have the right mentality, they're all extremely hard workers. A bloke you didn't mention and for good reason as you're speaking about the future is Tom Atkins, this bloke has more heart than 99% of any Essendon player of the last 2 decades.

 

[Zach Package]

Holmes aside, I probably haven't named a midfielder who has the potential to be a game breaking superstar. I'm not 100% sold that Holmes can become that although last night was pretty significant. The thing that sets him apart from so many of the guys who have similar attributes is that he blends everything. He's got the speed of Rozee but also his kicking and the physical strength that youd associate with a hardball specialist (e.g. something like Callan Ward).

It's not so much that I see the likes of Bruhn, Clark and Knevitt (although I find Knevitt intriguing) being elite players, it's more part of a stable platform of players. There has been a lot of talk about Bailey Smith joining, he's likely someone still able to provide that bit of star power / at least replace quite a bit of the Danger break from a stoppage (to then spray the ball).

It's pretty easy for them to trade in players and free agents to add star power when everything else functions as well as it does.

I do think the spine will be terrifying in a few seasons.

Yeah the platform is the enablement piece, which is the most important part because it’s just plug and play once you get that right.

Holmes is clearly the centrepiece there and he’s the only one I think will be a genuine top liner. But they’ll continue to just drop pieces in the knowledge that they’re picking the ones that fit and they’ll get the most out of them.

Meanwhile we haven’t got the platform right and I’m not convinced we know what good looks like. Other clubs are picking off the players we don’t want and getting good utilisation out of them, which is a far worse outcome than required players being picked off and offered a better role, more money etc.

 

[MiguelM]

I don't know what that feels like. I've been following Essendon for 20 years so all I know is EF losses. Never watched a winning final. Surely at least being in the final 4 is better than never contending? I'm sure GWS and Carlton last year were reasonably happy.

Was referring more to 1996, 1999 and the Cats losing so many PFs.

Agreed, playing finals and contending for a prelim is awesome, just the pain of being so close to a GF is brutal if you lose.

Hope watching the finals burns in the minds of our players, but how long until we get competitive?

 

[joey_jo_jo]

I dont really rate geelong's midfield but like Hawthorn I think theyve realised midfield dominance doesnt matter if you have speed and ground ball strength around the ground.
We dont have enough speed in our team but we were pretty decent with the ground ball game early in season but then for some reason the Coaching team blew that all up and decided to play overly tall for rest of the season.

 

[raskolnikov]

The meltdowns on the Port board are insane. I love it!

 

[Pweter]

Was referring more to 1996, 1999 and the Cats losing so many PFs.

Agreed, playing finals and contending for a prelim is awesome, just the pain of being so close to a GF is brutal if you lose.

Hope watching the finals burns in the minds of our players, but how long until we get competitive?

If watching finals hasn't burnt the players too deeply over the last many years I'm not sure what's going to change this year.

 

[katana]

I dont really rate geelong's midfield but like Hawthorn I think theyve realised midfield dominance doesnt matter if you have speed and ground ball strength around the ground.
We dont have enough speed in our team but we were pretty decent with the ground ball game early in season but then for some reason the Coaching team blew that all up and decided to play overly tall for rest of the season.

it's been like this since at least 2012.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

it's been like this since at least 2012.

Yep, I guess this year has really gotten me down cos we got a bit of a tease of what could be early in season and then we went away from it by choice.

 

[faible]

Yep, I guess this year has really gotten me down cos we got a bit of a tease of what could be early in season and then we went away from it by choice.

Teams also worked us out, from memory Port simply played man-on-man and we couldn't cope. Easy blueprint since Adelaide did it (twice) in the rematch and were able to force the game on to their terms and get the win.