Of the ageing champions, who was the best?

[Blues_Man]

This doesn't make any sense.

That has never stopped him posting before ..it's his M.O.

 

[Magpie03]

Bollocks.

Kouta provided the first glimpse of the 21st century player. His form 99-00 set the benchmark for guys like Adam Goodes. Except Kouta was an even better athlete and won more contested footy.

Those two seasons were more dominant than anything Chris Grant ever produced. By an absolute country mile.

I'm staggered that Kouta doesn't have 60 per cent of the votes on question 2.

I would have him ahead of the field quite clearly on that score. He was incredible, and actually changed the game.

People forget Kouta was never the same due to Knee reco's.

As Leigh Matthews said his when naming his dream team 18 Kouta's

Robert Harvey for no one though. The bloke is an absolute champion in every facet.

 

[adstar]

I think that Hirdy is definately the best,he is courageous,skillfull,and when a game needs to be won,he steps right up.ive seen many games where he has won essendon the game off his own boot.Voss was an awesome player in so many ways,but didnt do the freakish things that Hird has done so often in his career,the real special things.And Buckley is so skillfull,but doesnt put his body on the line like Hird and Vossy.
so for me my top 5 are
1-hird

2-voss

3-buckley

4-harvey

5-ricciuto

I really dont know how people could put kouta in that league of players

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Most place Voss, Hird and Buckley a level above the rest. These players are champions and richly deserve all the plaudits they get...

however, I hypothesise that if Harvey or even Crawford played at the teams those aforementioned players did, their regard could effectively be reversed.

Don't underestimate the influence of a succesful team (case of Voss & Hird) and enhanced public opinion (much greater fanbase with natural bias) and much greaterand media representation of popular teams (Essendon and Collingwood have saturated Vic media for a long ime, naturally focussing on their best players)

Oh and Gunnar, I know its not what you asked but I don't really care all that much.

 

[adstar]

Im just glad that i have seen all these fantastic players play the game,they have all made the game a better spectacle and one of the reasons i love footy so much

 

[cammo78]

His point is that in 96,97,98 champions by the name of Voss, Hird, and Harvey were at their prime and winning such awards.......at this time C.Grant was the equal of these players, but didn't get the awards so isn't viewed as highly by the general public

Like it or not but people do use things such as brownlow's etc as a pointer to how great a player is/was

C.Grant was desperately unlucky not to have claimed back to back Brownlows in 96,97.....if he did his reputation and standing in the league would be much greater than it is as a result of missing out

the most astute bunch of words i've seen on this site...well done.

 

[Saint Shags]

If you are asking in terms of consistency then it would have to Voss and Harvey equal first Hird and Grant only a fraction behind.
It is amazing that Harvey seems to go underneath the radar of a lot of people. Harvey has been playing what 18 years? Has had knee reco's bad hamies, yet he is still playing and has the ability to still get the footy more than alot of other players. An absolute freak, you think you have him beat and out on his feet yet he keeps going. The fact that he still mixes it up with guys nearly half his age is a rare feat on its own in this day and age. Just because you think that he couldnt dominate a game like a hird or voss doesnt mean that he couldnt influence the game, with 100 minutes of continually effort, not 3-4 things that may or may not change a game.

 

[harmesy 37]

mmmm. yes.

I always thought Tuck was an ageing champion.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

the most astute bunch of words i've seen on this site...well done.

Just becuse someone over-rates a player from your team, it doesn't make their comments astute.

 

[WoGiTaLiA]

Well number 1 is basically a longevity question. In which case it's easily Harvey(though I think Scott West who isnt on the list has a real shot at it).

Personally it's between Harvey, Kouta and Buckley for the 2nd question. Buckley had games where he got 35 touches and hit a target with a laserbeam of a pass with every one of them. Harvey could just create space out of nothing and was doing it before Judd even picked up a ball. Kouta could literally play every position and dominate it. I'd go with Harvey though because his prime is just so much longer than the other guys.

Voss is the best leader and most inspirational of the group. I think that should be noted.

 

[Tristagi]

Hird/Voss >
Riccuito/Buckley >>
Grant/Harvey/Archer >
Crawford/Koutoufides

 

[Bennycoff]

Kouta is so overrated its not funny.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Im just glad that i have seen all these fantastic players play the game,they have all made the game a better spectacle and one of the reasons i love footy so much

Let's hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

A lot of these blokes are going to be gone by season's end.

I stand by Kouta's peak as being the highest.

 

[tuna sammich]

yes out of all current day players kouta's best is better than any other

as for consistency would have to go with buckley and r harvey

 

[Aussie Joe]

Kouta is so overrated its not funny.

The MELBOURNE DEMONS BOARD.

 

[Aussie Joe]

A lot of these blokes are going to be gone by season's end.

I stand by Kouta's peak as being the highest.

Agreed. I guess most of the numb nuts disagreeing never saw him before his knees gave way.

 

[mrbehemoth]

Voss for 1, Kouta for 2.

 

[Smell The Glove]

1. Buckley.

As much as I loathe Collingwood, the standard this guy set in often a shit team (and then also a good one) over many years is just unbelivable. Incredibly professional and was the benchmark for both his team and often the competition for at least a decade, while Voss and Hird drifted in and out (often to injuries). Only player I always wondered when he would win a Brownlow, not if.

2. Koutoufides.

Realistically, there is no other option, and I think that most of the people who select others are either too young, or hate Carlton too much, to recognize how freakishly good he was in that 99-00 period. He was literally a man amongst little boys on the field during those two years and made some outstanding players look downright stupid. No-one came remotely close to him when he was on fire. And no other players has had any single period is their careers talked about more than Kouta does about those 18 months or so. That shows how good he was.

 

[Smell The Glove]

Kouta is so overrated its not funny.

And the laughable thing about this bloke is that he follows Hawthorn, and probably think that Crawford is the greatest ever. Not even in the same spectrum as any of the players mentioned so far.

Most overrated bloke to play AFL/VFL 1897-2007 award goes to Shane Crawford in a landslide.

 

[MinerBoy]

A lot of these blokes are going to be gone by season's end.

I stand by Kouta's peak as being the highest.

That sure was a good game.

 

[Chadwiko]

Hird/Voss >
Riccuito/Buckley >>
Grant/Harvey/Archer >
Crawford/Koutoufides

This is the most accurate representation.
If i had to change it, i'd swap Harvey and Riccuito, but that would be it.

 

[MinerBoy]

Hird/Voss >
Riccuito/Buckley >>
Grant/Harvey/Archer >
Crawford/Koutoufides

This is the most accurate representation.
If i had to change it, i'd swap Harvey and Riccuito, but that would be it.

Archer ahead of Crawford. Nah, don't think so.

Hird/Voss/Buckley/Harvey/Riccuito>
Grant/Crawford>
Archer/Kouta

Nothing against Archer, but as a footballer Crawford more than has him covered.

 

[Pie eyed]

James Hird
Nathan Buckley
Mark Ricciuto
Shane Crawford
Anthony Koutoufides
Glenn Archer
Chris Grant
Robert Harvey
Michael Voss (I know he's retired - but he still belongs)

These kind of questions are often cluttered by competing sets of criteria, so I'm going to simplify it from the outset.

I have two questions:

1) Based on performances averaged over the course of their careers, which of these players achieved the highest standard?

2) Based on their peak, whose best football reached the greatest heights?

Disregard medals and flags. That goes to "who was the most decorated". I don't want to hear simplistic arguments that Harvey was the best because he won two Brownlows, or that Voss was the best because he won the most flags or was the most successful skipper.

Assessing these guys on what they produced as players, how would you answer the two questions posed above?

For mine:

1) Nathan Buckley

2) Anthony Koutoufides

1.) Bucks
(because he had the added pressure of carrying the biggiest club in the land for 10 years)

2.) Voss (above Hird only by weight of success as a captain)
3.) Hird

These three epitomise greatness in the last 10 years in footy.

 

[wce4premiership]

James Hird
Nathan Buckley
Mark Ricciuto
Shane Crawford
Anthony Koutoufides
Glenn Archer
Chris Grant
Robert Harvey
Michael Voss (I know he's retired - but he still belongs)

These kind of questions are often cluttered by competing sets of criteria, so I'm going to simplify it from the outset.

I have two questions:

1) Based on performances averaged over the course of their careers, which of these players achieved the highest standard?

2) Based on their peak, whose best football reached the greatest heights?

Disregard medals and flags. That goes to "who was the most decorated". I don't want to hear simplistic arguments that Harvey was the best because he won two Brownlows, or that Voss was the best because he won the most flags or was the most successful skipper.

Assessing these guys on what they produced as players, how would you answer the two questions posed above?

For mine:

1) Nathan Buckley

2) Anthony Koutoufides

O.K. i'll do two lists.

Average over course of career:

Michael voss
Nathan Buckley
Robert harvey
James Hird
Mark Ricciuto
Shane Crawford
Chris Grant
Glenn Archer
Koutofidies

At their best:

James Hird
Anthony Koutofidies
Chris Grant
Nathan Buckley
Michael Voss
Shane Crawford
Robert Harvey
Mark Rucciouto
Glenn Archer