Who is the best midfielder of the 21st century?

[Cleansweep17]

Jordan was the best player in the league for 5+ years and the Bulls best finals performer during their peak years. Just like Ablett 2007-2010 for Geelong. He then became arguably better for 4 years, it just happened to be at a terrible team. For sustained excellence, Ablett matches Jordan (or LeBron)* much more than Martin.

However in basketball you have maybe two stars and a handful of excellent role players so the competition for Finals MVP is nothing like AFL. Also, finals MVP has only existed since 2016 for AFL and before that a standalone game is a tiny sample size.

Anyway back to the comparisons, Martin is more like Kevin Durant who won the League MVP once and Finals MVP twice. It's being generous to Martin given Durant made the All Star team 13 times and was the MVP for that game twice as well, but given what Dusty achieved in finals '17, '19, '20.

Imagine people arguing for Durant over Jordan or LeBron though. This is what Richmond supporters are doing when they try to push for Dusty.

*Matthews was like if there was a Super Jordan from the 70's/80's but that's a different comparison.

No that’s not right. Jordan like Dusty has won the most finals awards. That’s why I used it.

And GAJ like Lebron has the best H&A record.

It’s not like Lebron is a slouch in finals either think he only has a couple finals MVP less than MJ I think and it’s still not enough to bridge the gap. GAJ has no finals awards even if it was awarded back then. Make of that what you will.

 

[Mr Meow]

No that’s not right. Jordan like Dusty has won the most finals awards. That’s why I used it.

And GAJ like Lebron has the best H&A record.

It’s not like Lebron is a slouch in finals either think he only has a couple finals MVP less than MJ I think and it’s still not enough to bridge the gap. GAJ has no finals awards even if it was awarded back then. Make of that what you will.

From the modern era, GAJ and Buddy are your LeBron/Jordan. Jordan won the best player in the league in 5 different seasons, LeBron close to that - sustained time at the top of the mountain like GAJ/Buddy.

There aren't enough modern players close enough to be your Kobe Bryant and Steph Curry's (yet). Judd/Voss if we go back a bit?

Dusty is more around your Kevin Durant/Kawhi Leonard. Fantastic players with some amazing career highlights and big finals.

 

[Forward Press]

From the modern era, GAJ and Buddy are your LeBron/Jordan. Jordan won the best player in the league in 5 different seasons - sustained time at the top of the mountain like GAJ/Buddy.

There aren't enough modern players close enough to be your Kobe Bryant and Steph Curry's (yet).

Dusty is more around your Kevin Durant/Kawhi Leonard.

Clayton Oliver = Ben Simmons?

 

[Cleansweep17]

From the modern era, GAJ and Buddy are your LeBron/Jordan. Jordan won the best player in the league in 5 different seasons, LeBron close to that - sustained time at the top of the mountain like GAJ/Buddy.

There aren't enough modern players close enough to be your Kobe Bryant and Steph Curry's (yet). Judd/Voss if we go back a bit?

Dusty is more around your Kevin Durant/Kawhi Leonard. Fantastic players with some amazing career highlights and big finals.

Except neither Buddy or GAJ were spectacular finals performers like Dusty or MJ. Most of the time they cooked the GF. But if that’s your thing all g.

 

[Mr Meow]

Except neither Buddy or GAJ were spectacular finals performers like Dusty or MJ. Most of the time they cooked the GF. But if that’s your thing all g.

I don't recall Jordan failing in 5 of 8 finals series.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I don't recall Jordan failing in 5 of 8 finals series.

GAJ + Buddy = 0/10 Norm Smiths so 0%

Dusty = 3/3 Norm Smiths so 100%

Don’t know how many finals series for GAJ and Buddy combined but it’s probably like 0/20+ finals MVP also 0%

Dusty has 3/8 best finals player or whatever it is.

So obviously those two are nothing like MJ. They are the polar opposite.

 

[Mr Meow]

GAJ + Buddy = 0/10 Norm Smiths so 0%

Dusty = 3/3 Norm Smiths so 100%

Don’t know how many finals series for GAJ and Buddy combined but it’s probably like 0/30+ finals MVP also 0%

Dusty has 3/8 best finals player or whatever it is.

So obviously those two are nothing like MJ. They are the polar opposite.

You compared Martin's finals catalogue and strike rate to Jordan's, not me.

GAJ was Geelong's best finals performer in each year 2007-2010 regardless (and as the Hawk fan said, Finals Series MVP wise 2008 would've joined 2007 and 2009 to round out the trio), and this was the case both when his side was the best in the land or fell short.

When Richmond fell short (2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2022) was Martin even close to Richmond's best performing player of the match/finals series? Not at all.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You compared Martin's finals catalogue and strike rate to Jordan's, not me.

GAJ was Geelong's best finals performer in each year 2007-2010 regardless (and as the Hawk fan said, Finals Series MVP wise 2008 would've joined 2007 and 2009 to round out the trio), and this was the case both when his side was the best in the land or fell short.

When Richmond fell short (2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2022) was Martin even close to Richmond's best performing player of the match/finals series? Not at all.

Due to the 1.5x votes in the GF GAJ wouldn’t be the best finals performer for Geelong in 07 and 09.

Dusty 2013-2015 he wasn’t in his prime, 2018 he was injured in the prelim and 2022 he was also coming off a kidney and hamstring injury.

So yeah a fully fit Dusty in his prime was virtually unbeatable in finals hence the MJ comparison. GAJ was miles off that but to be fair nobody is close at least since 2000 anyway.

 

[Mr Meow]

GAJ + Buddy = 0/10 Norm Smiths so 0%

Dusty = 3/3 Norm Smiths so 100%

Don’t know how many finals series for GAJ and Buddy combined but it’s probably like 0/20+ finals MVP also 0%

Dusty has 3/8 best finals player or whatever it is.

So obviously those two are nothing like MJ. They are the polar opposite.

Hilarious memory you've got there.

GAJ finals during his peak

2007 QF: 32 disposals, 15 CP's, 5 clearances, 2 goals BOG
2007 PF: 31 disposals, 11 clearances, 7 tackles, 1 goal BOG
2007 GF: 19 disposals, 1 goal not in top 6
Best finals performer

2008 QF: 35 disposals, 13 CP's, 5 clearances, 1 goal, 1 goal assist BOG
2008 PF: 29 disposals, 8 inside 50s, 2 goal assists top 6
2008 GF: 34 disposals, 12 CP's, 8 clearances, 8 inside 50's, 2 goals 2nd BOG
Best finals performer

2009 QF: 31 disposals, 10 CP's, 7 clearances, 2 goal assists 2nd BOG
2009 PF: 34 disposals, 14 CP's, 7 clearances, 2 goals BOG
2009 GF: 25 disposals, 11 CP's, 6 clearances, 5 inside 50s, 6 tackles, 1 goal top 6
Best finals performer

2010 QF: 21 disposals, 14 CP's, 8 clearances, 5 inside 50s top 6
2010 SF: 36 disposals, 12 CP's, 7 clearances, 7 inside 50s BOG
2010 PF: 40 disposals, 14 CP's, 7 clearances, 7 inside 50s, 2 goal assists 2nd BOG
2nd/3rd best finals performer

 

[Mr Meow]

Due to the 1.5x votes in the GF GAJ wouldn’t be the best finals performer for Geelong in 07 and 09.

Dusty 2013-2015 he wasn’t in his prime, 2018 he was injured in the prelim and 2022 he was also coming off a kidney and hamstring injury.

So yeah a fully fit Dusty in his prime was virtually unbeatable in finals hence the MJ comparison. GAJ was miles off that but to be fair nobody is close at least since 2000 anyway.

Why would the 1.5x GF exist when it didn't exist until like 2022?

Wait so Dusty only had a peak of 2016-2020? 5 seasons?

GAJ had one 2007-2014. 8.

GAJ was an actual old man and banged up by finals each time 2018-2020, and he incurred some injuries within them. Yet his performances were still better than Dusty's 2018 PF and 2022 EF. Regardless, you have said Dusty had an unimpeachable finals record akin to Jordan's, who did it 6 times. Jordan was also an outrageously good playoff performer as a kid before the Bulls broke through. Dusty did it 3 times out of 8 attempts and as a 22-24 (we aren't talking 18-22 here, come on) and 31 year old had no finals impact.

 

[Fadge]

Why would the 1.5x GF exist when it didn't exist until like 2022?

Hey, it's Falcon's world, he makes all the rules...

 

[Mr Meow]

Hey, it's Falcon's world, he makes all the rules...

And being BOG or close to it in 2 of 3 finals matches for 4 consecutive years (in premiers, runners up and prelim teams - not just in premiers) = "finals underperformer"

 

[Cleansweep17]

Hey, it's Falcon's world, he makes all the rules...

Coleman finished on 10.5 Gary Ayers votes. Use your head, that’s what will be used as it’s the current rules.

 

[Fadge]

Coleman finished on 10.5 Gary Ayers votes. Use your head, that’s what will be used as it’s the current rules.

FFS. It's 'Ayres'.

 

[Cleansweep17]

And being BOG or close to it in 2 of 3 finals matches for 4 consecutive years (in premiers, runners up and prelim teams - not just in premiers) = "finals underperformer"

Underperformer compared to Martin and MJ yeah but he was still very good overall. But it’s well known GAJ specialised in H&A as shown by his accolades. Don’t hear many people speak of his finals much.

 

[Mr Meow]

Coleman finished on 10.5 Gary Ayers votes. Use your head, that’s what will be used as it’s the current rules.

So they went back and retrospectively changed the 2016-2021 figures right? Just like when the Brownlow voting system changed, they went back and remodelled all the previous votes based on the new system. We are judging the Ablett finals performances on the same criteria Martin was judged on for his Ayres award. By best estimate that places Ablett with 3, 2007-2009, where his performances did not drop off in any way from his dominant 2007-2009 seasons.

 

[Mr Meow]

Underperformer compared to Martin and MJ yeah but he was still very good overall. But it’s well known GAJ specialised in H&A as shown by his accolades. Don’t hear many people speak of his finals much.

You seem to be trying to convince yourself more than anything. Quite a sad attempt too.

Given GAJ's late match winning goal in the 2007 prelim was the most memorable and important out of any covering the Geelong/Richmond dynasties this century, I think you're applying selective ignorance.

 

[Cleansweep17]

So they went back and retrospectively changed the 2016-2021 figures right? Just like when the Brownlow voting system changed, they went back and remodelled all the previous votes based on the new system. We are judging the Ablett finals performances on the same criteria Martin was judged on for his Ayres award. By best estimate that places Ablett with 3, 2007-2009, where his performances did not drop off in any way from his dominant 2007-2009 seasons.

Thought it would be common sense to use the current rules for an award. Silly me

Look up career Brownlow votes, Dempsey has his votes adjusted down. So yeah rules change and we update them accordingly.

Don’t get what you are saying with Martin, the 1.5x votes makes him win by more since he was BOG in all of them.

 

[Mr Meow]

Thought it would be common sense to use the current rules for an award. Silly me

Look up career Brownlow votes, Dempsey has his votes adjusted down. So yeah rules change and we update them accordingly.

Anyone pre-2016 would have the rules in place for when it first started, 2016. If it was brought in for 2007 it would've started with the 1 for 1 weighting it had 10 seasons later.

This is a quite desperate attempt to try to obfuscate the fact that Ablett was the best finals performer 2007-2009 and wasn't far off it in 2010.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You seem to be trying to convince yourself more than anything. Quite a sad attempt too.

Given GAJ's late match winning goal in the 2007 prelim was the most memorable and important out of any covering the Geelong/Richmond dynasties this century, I think you're applying selective ignorance.

Yeah I’ve heard about the 07 prelim, 07 GF, 08 GF and 09 GF

2 of 4 I heard cause they were really bad and in 08 cause they lost. Not exactly a great selection is it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Thought it would be common sense to use the current rules for an award. Silly me

Look up career Brownlow votes, Dempsey has his votes adjusted down. So yeah rules change and we update them accordingly.

Don’t get what you are saying with Martin, the 1.5x votes makes him win by more since he was BOG in all of them.

I didn't say they would change the Martin results. I said that using the criteria Martin was marked on, Ablett would also have 3 Ayres awards. So he has him covered for Norm Smith's only, the same way McLeod and Hodge have Matthews covered for BOG performances in grand finals (hint: it's not enough to swing the ledger their way).

 

[Mr Meow]

Yeah I’ve heard about the 07 prelim, 07 GF, 08 GF and 09 GF

2 of 4 I heard cause they were really bad and in 08 cause they lost. Not exactly a great selection is it.

Oh right, you haven't actually seen the games and your hearing also needs checking.

You're bringing out a new treat each post.

 

[Fadge]

Oh right, you haven't actually seen the games and your hearing also needs checking.

You're bringing out a new treat each post.

Oh my.

All these Richmond supporters who think they can speak with any authority by looking at the final score on AFL tables and referencing at the stats sheets....

 

[Mr Meow]

Oh my.

All these Richmond supporters who think they can speak with any authority by looking at the final score on AFL tables and referencing at the stats sheets....

It's even more basic than that because the stats sheets and list of best players quite clearly shows Ablett as an ever present those finals series. It's "Did he get a medal?" (even if some medals didn't exist).

 

[Fadge]

It's even more basic than that because the stats sheets and list of best players quite clearly shows Ablett as an ever present those finals series. It's "Did he get a medal?" (even if some medals didn't exist).

And if they didn't win, it's because Ablett wasn't good enough...