Our Ruckmen

[dermott]

Nice of Mark Evans to answer my questions about Paul Johnson.

 

[grizzlym]

We aim to please.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Recruiting Hale shows our level of desperation. You gotta get what you can when you can.

I reckon we can eke out ten games between Bails and Lowden. Come finals time I reckon our hopes rest with one of these two stepping up ala Suzie in 08.

 

[RIOLIUSTAR]

Still a problem for me...

so what have we got

1. Suzie- a goer big strides last year but still a lot of room to improve ie skills etc.
2. Hale- solid with forward capabilities and some tricks
3. Max- well we all know his past so to say he'll be injury free is a stretch.
4. Lowden- from posts here is still aways off (12-18 months, but could be anything from what I hear...never seen him play)
5. Grimely- young, has a red hot go but not a true ruck for mine...develop as a key back primarily
6. Johnson????- I think we'd be foolish not to rookie him just in case, provided his injuries arent too bad.

As much as it'll be great to give Tucky a go and waste weeks at Box Hill serving his time, but what happens if Max and another of 1 or 2 above fall over early or during the year, do we really have the cover...I think not.

As shown on the weekend we have enough "Tucky's" running around who go ok, so tell him to put his head down and work hard and if so he's on board next year once the young rucks (Lowden) are closer to go into the big time. Personally, sentiment aside I'd have Ahmat-Watkins in front of tucky long term FWIW.

Nutshell...Must pick up Johnson ( if his injuries aren't too bad )

 

[mrcurly]

This is looking like a follow on from the Nab cup preview thread..

I can see why the club pulled the pin on a number of players after the frustration of the past two seasons, expectations were not met and a new group had to be given a chance to prove themselves. Despite that Wayde Skippers delisting is a mystery to me, he achieved exactly what was required last season, and from the point of his (and Burgoynes) inclusion in the side we actually started winning..

If you wanted ruck insurance, he is the man. He had excellent hand and foot skills, was a solid mark and could read the play well, without stopping and stagnating the teams run. He also had the skills to fill in as a forward target. Even if he spent the whole season playing at Box Hill it would certainly reduce the anxiety levels.

I believe a strong ruck combination can make a huge difference to the standard of the team, it changes the pattern of stoppage play, and gives our on ball group first use of the ball.

Taskmasters Freo comment is interesting:
I have said it before and will say it again, if a ruckman was that important, because they get 30 hit outs a game, then Freo should be winning every premiership!!!

I'm sure that having a monster ruckman like Sandilands would make a lot of the Freo midfield walk tall and play with more confidence, knowing the ball is going exactly where they practice in training drills more often than not.
To look at this from another perspective - if Renouf was Freos first ruck and Sandilands was ours, would Freo have finished sixth last season? and would we have been seventh? I doubt it. Even with the most minor improvement in win loss ratio we would have faced Freo in Melbourne, not W.A, all hypothetical now but small things can make a huge difference.

As far as i'm concerned Rucks rule, and if you have a mobile ruck that can take a contested mark and kick a goal or two then you are well in front of the opposition.

 

[Beandip]

You just have to look at the trends of success. Dean Cox revolutionized the role, a ruckman who could win in the ruck AND grab 20+ possessions a game, run other ruckmen into the ground.

Sandilands destroys opposition ruckmen, provides a huge target for kicks, that alone is an excellent insurance policy... when a kicker is under the pump and there's no clear options just try and bomb it to a pack Sandilands is in (especially long kick-ins) and there's a reasonable chance he will mark or bring to ground effectively.
Jolly is a solid ruck, has good endurance and is an excellent kick, Ottens is also an excellent kick.

I guess what I'm getting at is that ruckmen have been, and will continue to make huge differences to sides, look how much more stable Essendon is with Hille in the side. We had a truck load of ruckmen on our list, and in truth Grimley has everything Skipper did (and potentially more) he's just a while off.

We could not afford to have too many ruckmen taking up list space, and I've also heard conjecture that Skipper may have been offered a senior spot elsewhere and chosen to be delisted to chase it.

Everybody thinks worst case, but what if Bailey comes good and DOESN'T break down for 5 years, Hale and Renouf go fine for 2-3 years, by then Lowden and Grimley are mature and ready... We have 4-5 capable ruckmen demanding spots, all of who would have been ahead of Skipper in selection, maybe he saw the writing on the wall?

 

[Davo23]

In 2008, we won the Premiership with Campbell, Taylor & Renouf. None of them dominated ruck contests, took large numbers of marks or kicked many goals, and none would ever have been best on ground in any game.

All of them were hard-working ruckmen who contested every hitout and put their bodies into every disputed play. None of these players will be in the Hawthorn Hall of Fame, but they all played their role perfectly.

All you want is a ruckman who fights hard and occasionally gets first use of the ball. And a strong midfield who win the ball, whichever ruckman gets the hitout.


We have had great ruckmen recently like Paul Salmon and Spider Everitt, with no team success.

I know what I'd prefer.


.

 

[mrcurly]

I think you are underestimating the impact Robbie Campbell had as 1st ruck in that '08 side, rarely beaten throughout the season, and a huge physical presence at stoppages.

The fact is that Tailor and Renouf were his backups, and in my eyes neither progressed to the next level over the next two seasons. 2010 may have seen Tailor step up, until his unfortunate injury reduced a slow mover to glacial, while Renouf has improved his marking and endurance, but not gone forward in many other skill areas.

The way to shape a great team is identify weaknesses and try to resolve them, the recruits this season look to have covered many of our weak points. A backup ruck is an obvious deficiency, and hopefully the #1 and #2 rucks don't have any major injury issues. A Skipper in the 2s would be a far more reliable option than a player like Grimley, he has plenty of senior experience and proved his worth in tandem with Renouf last season.

The Sandilands effect on Freo is obvious - he made an average side look good, and then a good side look excellent last season. There is an impact from having a quality ruckman, and if this side had Paul Salmon circa 1996 in the side, we would have probably finished top four last season.

 

[Beandip]

First use is just such an important thing. Even quality midfielders struggle to get first bite from a skilled opponent ruckman. So we get some clearances, but not as many as we should, and we have to work extra hard for the ones we do.

Nothing looks more beautiful than a skillful palm into the path of a moving extractor who grabs it dashes out of the centre and hammers it onto a forwards chest, all in about 5-10 seconds.

I think Hawthorn with a Jolly/Mumford/Jamar/Cox/Sandilands/Kreuzer/Hille would be formidable indeed, it's the only thing restricting arguably one of the best midfields in the competition.

The latest report on the Hawks website wasn't particularly inspiring with phrases like "the swelling is something he'll have to work with for the rest of his career" and "very similar to what happened to R. Campbell" ...*sigh* Poor Max, I really hope it comes together for him.

 

[Taskmaster]

I appreciate we all have an opinion on this topic.

Well here's hoping that we pick up Johnson, because alot dont have a lot of faith in our current crop.

Oh and yes Jolly was good for Coll, but I dont ever recall Ball playing in the Ruck, yes he is a good in and under player, but we have just as good, if not better in and unders (Mitch, Sewell, Hodge, Lewis etc). The difference.......Not our ruckman, our game plan.

I dont know how many times sitting at the footy last year, we would win the ball from half back and have not a soul in the forward 50 to kick it too, hence why we were playing that sideways, backwards crap.

Why did we go on a winning streak and in Rd 22 beat Coll??? Because we changed the game plan slightly and kicked it to the likes of Buddy and Rough in the forward 50. Had nothing to do with our ruckman dominating the game.

 

[dermott]

I note the press release on the HFC website did not mention Luke Lowden who has slipped from view a bit apart from commentating on Rumble in the Jungle. I guess I am pushing my luck a bit but, if Henry Jnr is correct and the club monitors this site, we may get a response on his whereabouts.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

This is looking like a follow on from the Nab cup preview thread..

I can see why the club pulled the pin on a number of players after the frustration of the past two seasons, expectations were not met and a new group had to be given a chance to prove themselves. Despite that Wayde Skippers delisting is a mystery to me, he achieved exactly what was required last season, and from the point of his (and Burgoynes) inclusion in the side we actually started winning..

If you wanted ruck insurance, he is the man. He had excellent hand and foot skills, was a solid mark and could read the play well, without stopping and stagnating the teams run. He also had the skills to fill in as a forward target. Even if he spent the whole season playing at Box Hill it would certainly reduce the anxiety levels.

I believe a strong ruck combination can make a huge difference to the standard of the team, it changes the pattern of stoppage play, and gives our on ball group first use of the ball.

Taskmasters Freo comment is interesting:
I have said it before and will say it again, if a ruckman was that important, because they get 30 hit outs a game, then Freo should be winning every premiership!!!

I'm sure that having a monster ruckman like Sandilands would make a lot of the Freo midfield walk tall and play with more confidence, knowing the ball is going exactly where they practice in training drills more often than not.
To look at this from another perspective - if Renouf was Freos first ruck and Sandilands was ours, would Freo have finished sixth last season? and would we have been seventh? I doubt it. Even with the most minor improvement in win loss ratio we would have faced Freo in Melbourne, not W.A, all hypothetical now but small things can make a huge difference.

As far as i'm concerned Rucks rule, and if you have a mobile ruck that can take a contested mark and kick a goal or two then you are well in front of the opposition.

Great post.

So much hinges on Max Bailey's fitness. Not great to read he has swelling on the knee after the Tassie game (which I understand he only played half of each quarter) and that it is likely to be an ongoing issue. Still a HUGE question mark over Max unfortunately even though things look promising.

The noises coming out of Waverley are that Hale is going to play more of a forward role than ruck but that seems to be wishful thinking and based on the assumption of Bailey or another ruck standing up in the No. 1 role as Renouf ain't a number 1 ruck.

Hopefully Hale can be the competitive ruckman we need. I just want a bloke who can stand there, put his arm out (like Taylor used to do) and give us some certainty about where the ball is likely to go rather than rely on Renouf timing his leap etc and getting brushed aside at boundary stoppages. I don't think Skipper was the man for that role so I have no problem with us getting rid of him despite him being servicable but like others I was hoping we might rookie a big bodied mature ruck for insurance (eg. Broc McAulay, Miekeljohn, etc). Not good to read Paul Johnson is recovering from a foot injury.

I have a big question mark about us getting deep into September without a stable ruck division. Here's hoping for a change of luck.

 

[Ordovician]

I can see why the club pulled the pin on a number of players after the frustration of the past two seasons, expectations were not met and a new group had to be given a chance to prove themselves. Despite that Wayde Skippers delisting is a mystery to me, he achieved exactly what was required last season, and from the point of his (and Burgoynes) inclusion in the side we actually started winning..

If you wanted ruck insurance, he is the man. He had excellent hand and foot skills, was a solid mark and could read the play well, without stopping and stagnating the teams run. He also had the skills to fill in as a forward target. Even if he spent the whole season playing at Box Hill it would certainly reduce the anxiety levels.

???

He had the worst kicking efficiency of any player for Hawthorn last year with 52.5%, worse than Roughead, Hooper and Renouf. He was also 7th bottom in handball efficiency.

In front of goal he was particularly poor were he kicked a sensational 1 goal 8 points.

I am sure these factors must have contributed to his delisting.

 

[Ordovician]

I note the press release on the HFC website did not mention Luke Lowden who has slipped from view a bit apart from commentating on Rumble in the Jungle. I guess I am pushing my luck a bit but, if Henry Jnr is correct and the club monitors this site, we may get a response on his whereabouts.

The rumour is that he had groin problems and apparently he is recovering from abductor release surgey.

This could be wrong but he has had some groin issue history, so to me it sounds plausible. However, there are persons on this site who are far better connected to the club and should be able to confirm or deny this story.

 

[Kapil Hawk]

Despite that Wayde Skippers delisting is a mystery to me, he achieved exactly what was required last season, and from the point of his (and Burgoynes) inclusion in the side we actually started winning..

As far as i'm concerned Rucks rule, and if you have a mobile ruck that can take a contested mark and kick a goal or two then you are well in front of the opposition.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I can pinpoint three games (Rd2 cats, Rd3 dogs and Rd5/6 roos) early last year with Suzie run off his feet (or missing in the Roos game) where I think we didn't close out games which should have been won. At the end of the year we were 1.5 games from a top 4 spot. IMO it cost us dearly.

It is open knowledge that clarko's aim with ruckmen is purely to break even, which by and large happened with skipper's addition post rd 7. However the thought of potentially starting the season under prepared with big's is not exactly concerting to me, as I view the first part of the season until the cats game being crucial, especially not being in the predicament of season's past.

Unfortunately I do not think that these plans particularly help big Max, especially early doors. Whilst I am pessimistic about Hale, his importance as the 'Leigh Brown' prototype can not be underestimated. I shudder to think of rough in the ruck as seen in the roos game again.

Overall not one of us really is going to fully know the impact of the sub rule. However one thing is for sure, with the contested ability of our midfield, I sure would love first use of the ball on more occasions. For our midfield to continually win clearance/contested possession amounts without a dominant ruckman underlines it's abilities, imagine the bonus of having one...

 

[Ordovician]

The latest report on the Hawks website wasn't particularly inspiring with phrases like "the swelling is something he'll have to work with for the rest of his career" and "very similar to what happened to R. Campbell" ...*sigh* Poor Max, I really hope it comes together for him.

Bailey had reports of swelling problems on his knee during his previous recoveries from the knee reconstructions. At the time I thought this was related to the reconstruction itself. However, having Evans likening it to Campbell's degenerative knee makes me think that this problem is related to the severe meniscal tear he suffered originally before he started tearing his ACLs.

If this is the case then it sounds like he effectively has or will eventually have, a degenerative knee issue, just like Campbell, and that will force an early retirement at some stage even if the ACL grafts hold up.

Medium term Bailey looks like a very doubtful proposition.

 

[ScottFan]

Could not Agree more. Gave his all last year and deserved another crack - particularly as it was really his first real season for some time,

 

[dermott]

The rumour is that he had groin problems and apparently he is recovering from abductor release surgey.

This could be wrong but he has had some groin issue history, so to me it sounds plausible. However, there are persons on this site who are far better connected to the club and should be able to confirm or deny this story.

Thanks for that Ordivician. It would appear that at the start of the season at least we will be reliant on Hale and Renouf, with Bailey and Lowden being "nursemaided" until later in the season, and Grimley continuing his development at Box Hill. From a risk management perspective I would be seriously looking at Johnson as our final rookie providing his foot injury doesn't exclude him. It would appear to me that the probability of him getting a game in 2011 would be much higher than Tuck or Ahmat Watkins as Johnson doesn't have anywhere near as many ahead of him in the queue for his position.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Thanks for that Ordivician. It would appear that at the start of the season at least we will be reliant on Hale and Renouf, with Bailey and Lowden being "nursemaided" until later in the season, and Grimley continuing his development at Box Hill. From a risk management perspective I would be seriously looking at Johnson as our final rookie providing his foot injury doesn't exclude him. It would appear to me that the probability of him getting a game in 2011 would be much higher than Tuck or Ahmat Watkins as Johnson doesn't have anywhere near as many ahead of him in the queue for his position.

Plenty of de ja vu about this discussion from 12 months ago.

One good list management decision the Hawks did make was leaving the last rookie spot open. We need to see Max in action again shortly before the real stuff starts to see how he recovers so we can make the call on Johnson. Even when he is fit it seems there is a risk that he may only be a week to week proposition because of his knee swelling.

Also if Hallahan is a genuine inside mid who is ready for senior football then he could be insurance for not re-rookieing Tuck. Plus Schneider looked like he can win the ball at stoppages.

Lowden and Grimley as the depth just aren't ready but both look very promising.

Johnson has to be a big chance for the last spot. Putting side whether Max stands up or not I think it would be a good move to list Johnson. As we found out the hard way last year you can pinch hit in pretty much every position other than the ruck. Let's cover all bases going into the season.

 

[Threadkilla]

Johnson has to be a big chance for the last spot. Putting side whether Max stands up or not I think it would be a good move to list Johnson. As we found out the hard way last year you can pinch hit in pretty much every position other than the ruck. Let's cover all bases going into the season.

Surely the aquisition of Hale (even if he is/was intended to play mainly forward) must, at the very least, have been insurance if we have a similarly bad run with our rucks as last year.
Therefore- lose Skipper gain Hale...

Add to that the fact the club is optimistic about Big Max, and with Lowden and Grimely (whether or not they are ready) having another pre-season under their belts - we are infinitely better placed in this department than 12 months ago.

Given Clarko's stance on ruckmen over the journey, and i wouldn't have thought this would have changed all that much given his stubborness, I would suggest this is all the ruck insurance we will go into season 2011 with.

Now, if the club deems it necessary, Im all for picking up a mature-age rookie from a lower league to cover our asses (this is allowed under the current rule that applies to us and Richmond, isn't it?) - but for mine its a big "NO" to Paul Johnson..

Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Surely the aquisition of Hale (even if he is/was intended to play mainly forward) must, at the very least, have been insurance if we have a similarly bad run with our rucks as last year.
Therefore- lose Skipper gain Hale...

Add to that the fact the club is optimistic about Big Max, and with Lowden and Grimely (whether or not they are ready) having another pre-season under their belts - we are infinitely better placed in this department than 12 months ago.

Given Clarko's stance on ruckmen over the journey, and i wouldn't have thought this would have changed all that much given his stubborness, I would suggest this is all the ruck insurance we will go into season 2011 with.

Now, if the club deems it necessary, Im all for picking up a mature-age rookie from a lower league to cover our asses (this is allowed under the current rule that applies to us and Richmond, isn't it?) - but for mine its a big "NO" to Paul Johnson..

Just my two cents, for what it's worth...

But we delisted Simon A. Taylor as well at the end of last year so we are 1 ruckman down numbers-wise compared to last year.

 

[borgo]

Our ruck stocks are weak.

People are expecting way too much of Bailey. If he plays 6 games this year, I will be elated.
Hale was a good get, IMO, given our delistings and the alteration to the interchange. An A-grade ruckman he is not.
Grimley and Lowden are both great prospects but not in 2011. I dont think Grimley's best position is ruck anyway.
Renouf is a battler but an A-grade ruck he is not. By the way, can someone teach him how to kick a football? What the heck does this say about our development and coaching staff....?

 

[Brishawk]

I appreciate we all have an opinion on this topic.

Well here's hoping that we pick up Johnson, because alot dont have a lot of faith in our current crop.

Oh and yes Jolly was good for Coll, but I dont ever recall Ball playing in the Ruck, yes he is a good in and under player, but we have just as good, if not better in and unders (Mitch, Sewell, Hodge, Lewis etc). The difference.......Not our ruckman, our game plan.

I dont know how many times sitting at the footy last year, we would win the ball from half back and have not a soul in the forward 50 to kick it too, hence why we were playing that sideways, backwards crap.

Why did we go on a winning streak and in Rd 22 beat Coll??? Because we changed the game plan slightly and kicked it to the likes of Buddy and Rough in the forward 50. Had nothing to do with our ruckman dominating the game.

Fact: We were not able to replicate our success at clearances in 2008 in 2009 or 2010. Most agree the onballers we have are good at clearances.

We tried Hodge, Lewis, Sewell, Burgoyne, Rioli, Ellis, Bateman, Mitchell among others through the center square and around stoppages over the last two years without sustained success. The difference?

In 2008 we had a ruck combination that ranked about three in the comp in hit outs to advantage. In 2009 and 2010 we were at or near the bottom of the league and consequently our clearance success followed a similar trajectory. It's not rocket science; win hit out to advantage and it makes it easier to clear the ball on a regular basis.

Our moderate success in the second half of last year was despite our appaling clearance work. No way known were we in a position to win a flag based on that form.

To improve we need a ruckman who can hit it to our mid fielders because we have already tried almost every player we have through there without success.

Can't imagine too many sides win premierships who are bad at clearances.

 

[bennyc]

lowden was not playing as he was just returning to full training after his surgery....last week he had a mishap at training and is now a few more weeks away..most likely wont see him in the NAB...and therefore not in the AFL to around mid season if he is performing in the VFL

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

lowden was not playing as he was just returning to full training after his surgery....last week he had a mishap at training and is now a few more weeks away..most likely wont see him in the NAB...and therefore not in the AFL to around mid season if he is performing in the VFL

Thanks bennyc.

Appreciate the update.

Hopefully he gets a good injury-free run and up to match fitness and we see him begin to dominate at BH.