Pick 61 - Dom Barry

[Schulzenfest]

Agree. I don't think there is a greater example of this than Butcher. How many years was he on the list? And even when he was finally delisted there were still people hoping we'd rookie him and he'd become the next Tredrea.

No doubt if we had delisted him much earlier we would have drafted an extra tall forward instead of just Howard whose now looking like a CHB and Marshall who was drafted once Butch was delisted. No I'm not forgetting Harvey.

In fairness it's about more than just having these guys on the list, it's also about giving them opportunities to develop at AFL level. The issue with Butcher wasn't so much with his delisting, it was with the fact that he never got consistent games when he was here.

This is the reason I'm not sad to see Young, Impey or Trengove go over the off-season but I am sad to see Ah Chee go. The first three were given ample opportunities to prove themselves over the years and never quite managed it (well Trengove did to an extent, but was then overtaken by better players in his position). Aside from a run of games over the first half of 2016, Ah Chee was never given that opportunity.

 

[Peck]

In fairness it's about more than just having these guys on the list, it's also about giving them opportunities to develop at AFL level. The issue with Butcher wasn't so much with his delisting, it was with the fact that he never got consistent games when he was here.

This is the reason I'm not sad to see Young, Impey or Trengove go over the off-season but I am sad to see Ah Chee go. The first three were given ample opportunities to prove themselves over the years and never quite managed it (well Trengove did to an extent, but was then overtaken by better players in his position). Aside from a run of games over the first half of 2016, Ah Chee was never given that opportunity.

Does anyone really believe Butcher would have gone from terrible to good/great with more games though? Personally I don’t think that’s how it works.

As for Ah Chee, I don’t think he had much of a chance of making it here anymore. Got overtaken by SPP pretty quickly IMO with Atley, and Rockliff likely killing his spot this year. Hell even Jack Trengove may be a better option for us. I do think he should have been given and handful more games last year or in 2016 but maybe we would be saying the same thing about someone else had he gotten those chances? I mean people wanted Young in just about every week he wasn’t in the side for example.

So overall for Ah Chee I think he was a little unlucky, and we can sort of wonder if he could have become a good to great player here, but I’m confident the best decision last year for both him and the club was to trade him. Basically the ship had sailed, even if we may have missed opportunities for him to befome a great player.

And just on Impey, my personal opinion is that 2017 will be the worst year in his career, and was hugely impacted by him needing time to grieve for his father. We probably shouldn’t have kept trying to play him into form, but it’s possible he was doing a lot of unrewarded good work as well. Don’t write him off due to last year is all I’m saying... feelings of depression kill all your motivation, and grievance is basically depression that goes away with time. He could feel like a new person this year.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Lol now we’re having this argument again.

Does anyone really believe Butcher would have gone from terrible to good/great with more games though? Personally I don’t think that’s how it works.

Probably not, but I still would’ve much preferred for us to have persisted with the top 10 pick gun athlete key forward than with the likes of Kane Mitchell and Jake Neade. It’s about potential upside. If there’s a parallel universe out there where John Butcher reached his full potential and another parallel universe out there where Kane Mitchell reached his full potential, you can bet that Port are a better side in the Butcher universe.

Overall I think there are more positives than negatives to Ken Hinkley as coach but the one thing above all else that bugs me about him is his preference at the selection table for limited triers over talented but inconsistent confidence players and his lack of respect at the selection table for forward structure. Ah Chee’s non-selection is an example of the former, Butcher’s non-selection is an example of both.

 

[TimmyD11]

In fairness it's about more than just having these guys on the list, it's also about giving them opportunities to develop at AFL level. The issue with Butcher wasn't so much with his delisting, it was with the fact that he never got consistent games when he was here.

This is the reason I'm not sad to see Young, Impey or Trengove go over the off-season but I am sad to see Ah Chee go. The first three were given ample opportunities to prove themselves over the years and never quite managed it (well Trengove did to an extent, but was then overtaken by better players in his position). Aside from a run of games over the first half of 2016, Ah Chee was never given that opportunity.

True but it took Ah Chee a long time to debut and generally speaking if you're good enough you will demand selection, DBJ was no different to Ah Chee. People had him pegged as the 40th player on the list before he burst on to the scene, same again as Houston. It took SPP one preseason to take the spot and role Ah Chee took 6 years trying to get. He got passed by a first year player and with Rocky on board he had no chance. Our list management decisions last year were spot on as hard as it is to see Ah Chee go but make no mistake he had enough opportunity just not as much as Impey and I would agree that I wouldn't have minded if that had been reversed but it is what it is. You gotta make cut the cord early and risk letting a decent player go to be more proactive in turning over the list like we now have.

 

[Janus]

If there’s a parallel universe out there where John Butcher reached his full potential and another parallel universe out there where Kane Mitchell reached his full potential, you can bet that Port are a better side in the Butcher universe.

If there's a parallel universe out there where John Butcher had Kane Mitchell's work ethic, you can bet that he would have reached the potential that you're talking about.

Why the **** would you gift games to someone like that? What sort of message are you sending to the rest of the players? Yeah, you can be a slack arse who doesn't defend and doesn't work on deficiencies in his game if you're playing a certain position?

Look at Boak. What did he do in the off-season? He went to the US and he worked his ****ing arse off to increase his running capacity because he knew it was a failing in his game. He wanted to become better for the betterment of the team, and not think his talent or position as captain is enough to get him games.

The 'limited triers' give everything they've got. Guys like Butcher don't. He wasn't 'inconsistent' - that gives him the excuse that he was just unlucky, when the reality is that he just wasn't cut out for the high standards of AFL football.

As for Ah Chee - yet another player who never wanted to play his role for the betterment of the side. Would rather ferret for a contested ball and leave his man open for clearing handpass instead of laying a block for guys like Wines and Powell-Pepper because he wanted Sam's role in the side, not realising that Powell-Pepper didn't even really have a role last year because he was a rookie. He's exactly the reason why we went with Powell-Pepper and targeted Rockliff - because he just wasn't up to the task.

Not saying he won't have success at West Coast, because they play a different system. He could end up being a star.

What I am saying is that talent without application in the chosen system is meaningless.

 

[Peck]

Lol now we’re having this argument again.



Probably not, but I still would’ve much preferred for us to have persisted with the top 10 pick gun athlete key forward than with the likes of Kane Mitchell and Jake Neade. It’s about potential upside. If there’s a parallel universe out there where John Butcher reached his full potential and another parallel universe out there where Kane Mitchell reached his full potential, you can bet that Port are a better side in the Butcher universe.

Overall I think there are more positives than negatives to Ken Hinkley as coach but the one thing above all else that bugs me about him is his preference at the selection table for limited triers over talented but inconsistent confidence players and his lack of respect at the selection table for forward structure. Ah Chee’s non-selection is an example of the former, Butcher’s non-selection is an example of both.

The Butcher argument will never die hahaha.

I think Janus makes a good point about inconsistency being a flaw rather than an excuse though. I know Portia has mentioned a few times that being able to concentrate for long periods is important for defenders, but no doubt it applies to all positions.

I wasn’t trying to resurrect the Butcher debate FWIW. I more just wanted to say that I still rate Impey, and that whether Ah Chee had more potential or not doesn’t change the validity of the decision to move him on, largely due to SPP and Rockliff taking his spot. One could argue either him or Trengove would have been fine, but I’m sure Brendan got a much better deal at West Coast than he would’ve here.

 

[Magus]

If there's a parallel universe out there where John Butcher had Kane Mitchell's work ethic, you can bet that he would have reached the potential that you're talking about.

Why the **** would you gift games to someone like that? What sort of message are you sending to the rest of the players? Yeah, you can be a slack arse who doesn't defend and doesn't work on deficiencies in his game if you're playing a certain position?

Look at Boak. What did he do in the off-season? He went to the US and he worked his ******* arse off to increase his running capacity because he knew it was a failing in his game. He wanted to become better for the betterment of the team, and not think his talent or position as captain is enough to get him games.

The 'limited triers' give everything they've got. Guys like Butcher don't. He wasn't 'inconsistent' - that gives him the excuse that he was just unlucky, when the reality is that he just wasn't cut out for the high standards of AFL football.

As for Ah Chee - yet another player who never wanted to play his role for the betterment of the side. Would rather ferret for a contested ball and leave his man open for clearing handpass instead of laying a block for guys like Wines and Powell-Pepper because he wanted Sam's role in the side, not realising that Powell-Pepper didn't even really have a role last year because he was a rookie. He's exactly the reason why we went with Powell-Pepper and targeted Rockliff - because he just wasn't up to the task.

Not saying he won't have success at West Coast, because they play a different system. He could end up being a star.

What I am saying is that talent without application in the chosen system is meaningless.

Can you give us one example where Butcher had an obvious poor work ethic?

 

[Kingfish73]

Very confident none of the players we traded will come back to bite us. Extremely comfortable

 

[Janus]

Can you give us one example where Butcher had an obvious poor work ethic?

I’ll give you one - the video where it showed Butcher actually putting in and doing what a forward should be doing by running from defence to the forward line and slotting a goal back in 2015 (I believe it was then, I’m not sure).

Doesn’t that prove he doesn’t have a poor work ethic, you might say?

To which I say - Why the **** was that sort of play such a rare occurrence for him that it needed to be highlighted in a video? That sort of play should have been what an athletic forward like he was ate for breakfast. Adelaide doesn’t put highlights of Jenkins’ gut running up every week.

Compare Butcher to the amount of work Dixon does in a game. Are we really saying he was giving everything he had? I don’t think so.

Maybe if he’d played like the way he was capable of playing instead of thinking it was just going to be gifted to him, he’d still be in the AFL.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

If there's a parallel universe out there where John Butcher had Kane Mitchell's work ethic, you can bet that he would have reached the potential that you're talking about.

Why the **** would you gift games to someone like that? What sort of message are you sending to the rest of the players? Yeah, you can be a slack arse who doesn't defend and doesn't work on deficiencies in his game if you're playing a certain position?

Look at Boak. What did he do in the off-season? He went to the US and he worked his ******* arse off to increase his running capacity because he knew it was a failing in his game. He wanted to become better for the betterment of the team, and not think his talent or position as captain is enough to get him games.

The 'limited triers' give everything they've got. Guys like Butcher don't. He wasn't 'inconsistent' - that gives him the excuse that he was just unlucky, when the reality is that he just wasn't cut out for the high standards of AFL football.

As for Ah Chee - yet another player who never wanted to play his role for the betterment of the side. Would rather ferret for a contested ball and leave his man open for clearing handpass instead of laying a block for guys like Wines and Powell-Pepper because he wanted Sam's role in the side, not realising that Powell-Pepper didn't even really have a role last year because he was a rookie. He's exactly the reason why we went with Powell-Pepper and targeted Rockliff - because he just wasn't up to the task.

Not saying he won't have success at West Coast, because they play a different system. He could end up being a star.

What I am saying is that talent without application in the chosen system is meaningless.

This.

Premierships are won by teams with everyone giving 100%.

You don't get that by rewarding players who don't.

The talented players need to be made to lift their intensity to the required level otherwise you end up with a Gold Coast Suns

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Jonts]

I’ll give you one - the video where it showed Butcher actually putting in and doing what a forward should be doing by running from defence to the forward line and slotting a goal back in 2015 (I believe it was then, I’m not sure).

Doesn’t that prove he doesn’t have a poor work ethic, you might say?

To which I say - Why the **** was that sort of play such a rare occurrence for him that it needed to be highlighted in a video? That sort of play should have been what an athletic forward like he was ate for breakfast. Adelaide doesn’t put highlights of Jenkins’ gut running up every week.

Compare Butcher to the amount of work Dixon does in a game. Are we really saying he was giving everything he had? I don’t think so.

Maybe if he’d played like the way he was capable of playing instead of thinking it was just going to be gifted to him, he’d still be in the AFL.

Find me a video of Dixon doing the same thing but he is 23 or under, by the time 2015 came around the lack of opportunities had already curved/stunted his development. 2014/2013 should've been the pump games into him years. Injuries permitting.

 

[Tibbs]

Find me a video of Dixon doing the same thing but he is 23 or under, by the time 2015 came around the lack of opportunities had already curved/stunted his development. 2014/2013 should've been the pump games into him years. Injuries permitting.

Champion players go and carve it up if dropped to the two's... They demand to be selected. He got the games, only it was in the Maggies. While he was at times ok, he couldn't even dominate there.

The fact he is not with another AFL club proves to me that Butch just didn't have what it takes.

 

[Smithy7]

Find me a video of Dixon doing the same thing but he is 23 or under, by the time 2015 came around the lack of opportunities had already curved/stunted his development. 2014/2013 should've been the pump games into him years. Injuries permitting.

I have been looking at replays of all of our 2017 games, and have noted all the gut running, up and down the field Dixon has done in them.
John Butcher would not have done a quarter of the work in his games that Dixon has done. Hence he is not playing AFL now.

 

[Interstater]

In case you were wondering, this thread is about my buddy Dom Barry.

Congrats on 2nd place in the time trial Dom.

 

[Peck]

I’ll give you one - the video where it showed Butcher actually putting in and doing what a forward should be doing by running from defence to the forward line and slotting a goal back in 2015 (I believe it was then, I’m not sure).

Doesn’t that prove he doesn’t have a poor work ethic, you might say?

To which I say - Why the **** was that sort of play such a rare occurrence for him that it needed to be highlighted in a video? That sort of play should have been what an athletic forward like he was ate for breakfast. Adelaide doesn’t put highlights of Jenkins’ gut running up every week.

Compare Butcher to the amount of work Dixon does in a game. Are we really saying he was giving everything he had? I don’t think so.

Maybe if he’d played like the way he was capable of playing instead of thinking it was just going to be gifted to him, he’d still be in the AFL.

I honestly don’t think this argument even needs to be made.

Butcher was the kind of player who looks incredibly talented at times, but doesn’t have the ability to put it all together at the top level. Whether that be work ethic, concentration, or football smarts isn’t important.

It’s not a slight on the guy, it’s ****ing hard to reach the top level in any sport and he gave it a good crack. The argument that we should have played him regardless for structure has validity, but to argue it would have unlocked his potential is absurd.

Being a confidence player is not a good thing when the difference between your best and worst is so huge. No one is confident all the time, so it simply isn’t enough to play well when you are confident.

One of Mitchell Johnson’s biggest problems early in his career was that due to how unrefined his technique was, if he wasn’t bowling well he wouldn’t know what to change to fix it so he was either man of the match or near unsighted and had awful swings in confidence. He put the work in to be a more structured and became an absolute monster of a bowler with much more consistency. He didn’t achieve this through getting games gifted to him, he did it through hard work when he was dropped.

I know we all want our important players to have this work done for them, but the reality is currently that players need to make themselves good enough. Maybe coaching standards aren’t high enough, or maybe it’s simply too competitive for players to make it without being exceptional in many areas. Either way getting games to boost confidence just isn’t a thing that takes a player from sub-par to great.

Although let’s be honest, it’s near impossible to prove either way.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Poor Dom his fred has been reduced to talking about a dud playing out at lizbeff

 

[FishingRick04]

Was Barry a massive runner at Melbourne?

Is this an improvement of sorts from dom?

 

[Powerstufff]

Just read he has been living with Jake Neade this year. They went to school together.

Neat. Hope they crack at least one Power game together

 

[Mundusa]

Neat. Hope they crack at least one Power game together

I'm not so sure. I think something would have gone horribly wrong for these two to get a game together.

 

[GremioPower]

I'm not so sure. I think something would have gone horribly wrong for these two to get a game together.

Or we could be playing against a weak side and decided to rest some players.

 

[Smithy7]

Dom Barry .. will be on 5AA later today

 

[Smithy7]

Dom Barry .. will be on 5AA later today

Dom spoke very well ... happy at Port .. and very impressed with Ken
A must listen ...

 

[Smithy7]

Dom spoke very well ... happy at Port .. and very impressed with Ken
A must listen ...

Thought I would post interview

 

[Ando39]

Was Barry a massive runner at Melbourne?

Is this an improvement of sorts from dom?

It seems somewhat freakishly your question is directly answered in the interview just posted. Apparently running/endurance "has always been one of my strengths".

 

[OneGreatClub]

Thought I would post interview

Thanks for the link. Will do.