Player development is our biggest issue.

[Ordovician]

I agree with somethings that you have said and i disagree with others. The one statement that stands out for me is the one that i have highlighted. Whitex is borderline? This from a kid who is like you say only 20 who showed quite a bit in early 2009 before he got injured / lost form. Then didn't have a pre season this year through injury. Looked a class above whenever he played at Box hill. All that's stopping him right now is a great pre season, game time and confidence. This kid will be one of our shining lights next year fingers crossed.

I hope you are right.

If you look at Whitecross' performances this year as judged by by our coaches in the PCM, then to lift the data from Simon Nesbit's most excellent thread:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764212

Category 4 (Competent) 7 (22)
13 Gilham 71 in 23 @ 3.09
18 Bateman 54 in 18 @ 3.00
25 Hooper 18 in 6 @ 3.00
=26 Muston 15 in 5 @ 3.00
20 Peterson 46 in 17 @ 2.71
19 Osborne 52 in 20 @ 2.60
16 Ellis 57 in 23 @ 2.48
21 Skipper 33 in 15 @ 2.20
23 Ladson 28 in 13 @ 2.16
=30 Kayler-Thomson 6 in 3 @ 2.00

...

Category 5 (Poor) 9 (31)
22 Young 31 in 17 @ 1.82
29 Moss 7 in 4 @ 1.75
=26 Schoenmakers 15 in 11 @ 1.36
28 Shiels 8 in 6 @ 1.33
24 Whitecross 20 in 16 @ 1.25
=30 Morton 6 in 5 @ 1.20
32 Suckling 5 in 5 @ 1.00

It shows quite unequivocally that in terms of PCM votes per game he was the third worse player to play for Hawthorn this year.

That is what I meant by line ball, his performanaces this year were not good enough to justify regular senior selection.

Sure he played one real blinder of a game at Box Hill off the HBF but this stunning form did not translate to the senors.

I believe that he will improve next year and with a solid pre-season become a competent senior player.

 

[madhawksfan]

It shows quite unequivocally that in terms of PCM votes per game he was the third worse player to play for Hawthorn this year.

That is what I meant by line ball, his performanaces this year were not good enough to justify regular senior selection.

Sure he played one real blinder of a game at Box Hill off the HBF but this stunning form did not translate to the senors.

I believe that he will improve next year and with a solid pre-season become a competent senior player.

Based on PCM voting Clinton Young was also one of our worst performers, which I would strongly disagree with. He has been thrown all over the place in terms of positions, and as you rightly point out had no pre-season last year. The coaches need to give him a role (whether at AFL or VFL level) and give him have a sustained opportunity to play in that position. He has all the tools to become a star IMO (along with Schoey, Shiels and Ellis) but needs to be managed properly. If Murphy (who has much less natural ability IMO) can improve into a solid contributor then Whitecross should be able to as well. I just hope the coaches show the same faith in him as they did with Murph because he is worth the risk.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Ordo, you've touched on the footballing aspects of the development process, and gave a measured argument as to why the development isn't a major concern, but the development of a player is much more than purely football output.

For example, a couple of our 'failures' have had life issues and external pressures and have needed genuine help to get themselves right, and a lot of people question if the HFC have, or did do all that they could to get those players in the right headspace.

While I'm not suggesting those at the club who's role it is to support, mentor and guide our youngsters sat on their hands and did nothing, it seems that a number of our guys have had ongoing issues that ultimately cost them a spot on the list.
Could we have done more? Should we have done more? Who knows. But from the outside looking in, there'll always be questions.

There's nothing we can do about it now, but I think some here have hinted at the failures of our own club to get the best out of some once highly rated kids.

 

[CaloHawka]

Here's where the improvement will come from:

Ellis - has the goods, was taken at pick 3 for a reason. Once he has a good pre-season he'll be an absolute gun.

Hodge and Mitchell - the captaincy change could be a great thing from both. Would love to see Mitchell regularly getting 30+ touches and influencing the stoppages like he used to. Hodge to walk even taller.

Burgoyne and Sewell - both had severely impacted pre-seasons last year. Look for increased output from both in 2011. Burgoyne's now had a season to 'learn' his teammates.

*note, the improvement I'm proposing in Mitchell, Burgoyne and Sewell is really not a big ask. Hodge would find it difficult to improve on 2010 form.

Ruck department: Having two ruckmen that can win regular tapouts will be beneficial? A fit Bailey will also mean we have depth in the ruck. Remember 2008? Bob, Taylor and Renouf to pick from every week.

Development of youngsters will simply be icing on the cake if we can see improvement in the guys I've listed above.

The problem is trying to cover the small forward role - the key defender is not as big a problem as we tend to think. We've got a really strong 22 and last year most of us were struggling to fit some very good players in it.

Ellis will be a gun when he is fit and ready and the Hodge& Mitchell captaincy changeover just like Ellis Sewell and Burgoyne just nee a full preseason
and with to of those ruckman gone it is vital we develop the younger ruckmen so that we can be doing the same thing in a couple of years

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Ellis will be a gun when he is fit and ready and the Hodge& Mitchell captaincy changeover just like Ellis Sewell and Burgoyne just nee a full preseason
and with to of those ruckman gone it is vital we develop the younger ruckmen so that we can be doing the same thing in a couple of years

Let me guess you posted the above from your iphone??

 

[CaloHawka]

no i did not and why would you think that

 

[TheFourPillars]

I hope you are right.

If you look at Whitecross' performances this year as judged by by our coaches in the PCM, then to lift the data from Simon Nesbit's most excellent thread:

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764212




It shows quite unequivocally that in terms of PCM votes per game he was the third worse player to play for Hawthorn this year.

That is what I meant by line ball, his performanaces this year were not good enough to justify regular senior selection.

Sure he played one real blinder of a game at Box Hill off the HBF but this stunning form did not translate to the senors.

I believe that he will improve next year and with a solid pre-season become a competent senior player.

To a certain degree the PCM stats reflect the fact that he was thrown about when playing last year. Played in and off the backline when at box hill and played forward when in the senior side. Wasn't settled does not have a definitive role. A bits and pieces player in 2010 not reflective of the guys talent. He will be served well if they actually develop him for a particular role (that goes for all of our youngsters) versatility is important but not when you're trying to find your feet as a youngster. It can confuse and more than likely affect confidence.

 

[Klem]

Ordo, you've touched on the footballing aspects of the development process, and gave a measured argument as to why the development isn't a major concern, but the development of a player is much more than purely football output.

For example, a couple of our 'failures' have had life issues and external pressures and have needed genuine help to get themselves right, and a lot of people question if the HFC have, or did do all that they could to get those players in the right headspace.

While I'm not suggesting those at the club who's role it is to support, mentor and guide our youngsters sat on their hands and did nothing, it seems that a number of our guys have had ongoing issues that ultimately cost them a spot on the list.
Could we have done more? Should we have done more? Who knows. But from the outside looking in, there'll always be questions.

There's nothing we can do about it now, but I think some here have hinted at the failures of our own club to get the best out of some once highly rated kids.

What he said !

Drafting a Cyril Rioli or a Shane Crawford who are self motivated and driven and easy to coach, is the dream.

But in reality kids are kids and I was a dick head at that age and only interested in getting .........................well you know where i was heading. I had a few good role models in my life and now I am less of a dick head and have hopefully matured.

Player development is teaching them how to play league footy and also developing them as people and giving young men life skills and dealing with issues outside in their private life.

Not saying out loud to anyone that wants to hear that the player is introverted and we made a mistake drafting him etc etc etc.

From an outsiders perspective Collingwood and Mick Malthouse seem to be the leaders in this field.

We look to be just above Essendon, Richmond and West coast Eagles in this dept in the last 3 years, which is nothing to brag or be happy about.

 

[CaloHawka]

Yes because those three clubs havent travelled to well

 

[Chrissie90]

Here's where the improvement will come from:

Ellis - has the goods, was taken at pick 3 for a reason. Once he has a good pre-season he'll be an absolute gun.

Hodge and Mitchell - the captaincy change could be a great thing from both. Would love to see Mitchell regularly getting 30+ touches and influencing the stoppages like he used to. Hodge to walk even taller.

Burgoyne and Sewell - both had severely impacted pre-seasons last year. Look for increased output from both in 2011. Burgoyne's now had a season to 'learn' his teammates.

*note, the improvement I'm proposing in Mitchell, Burgoyne and Sewell is really not a big ask. Hodge would find it difficult to improve on 2010 form.

Ruck department: Having two ruckmen that can win regular tapouts will be beneficial? A fit Bailey will also mean we have depth in the ruck. Remember 2008? Bob, Taylor and Renouf to pick from every week.

Development of youngsters will simply be icing on the cake if we can see improvement in the guys I've listed above.

The problem is trying to cover the small forward role - the key defender is not as big a problem as we tend to think. We've got a really strong 22 and last year most of us were struggling to fit some very good players in it.

I hope you arent right. Of the 6 players you name, 4 are late 20s and apre probably past their best, one has done a knee 3 times and one struggles to play consistent ALF standard after 5 years.

If the improvement is not from the young players, I dont think we will get any improvement unfortunately...

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I hope you arent right. Of the 6 players you name, 4 are late 20s and apre probably past their best, one has done a knee 3 times and one struggles to play consistent ALF standard after 5 years.

If the improvement is not from the young players, I dont think we will get any improvement unfortunately...

I'm saying that there is a lot of improvement in some of our senior guys, making the point that the blame shouldn't necessarily be put on the fact that guys like Moss, Muston and Dowler are now delisted.

Late 20's is not "over the hill" by any stretch, to say they're past their best is fairly pessimistic view on things. 27/28 is when you'd expect footy players to peak. The only one on our list older than that is Bateman. And I'm not sure if Hodge being 26 really constitutes 'late' 20s.

Conversely - if you think Ellis is playing the best footy is capable of I'd suggest you're mistaken. And Hale's addition to the side will mean that any output from Bailey will be icing, not cake.

It's my opinion that our best 22 is still amongst the best in the league. It underperformed last year. We played a very negative gameplan which didn't suit some of our better players, but it kept us in the hunt with the top 4 teams.

As it should be, any high performance from our young players such as Shiels, Savage and Schoenmakers will be a bonus.

 

[CaloHawka]

yes i agree that ellis is not playing the best footy because of a niggling injury and players hit there peak late 20s.
HODGE
2011 best year in career
2012 good/great year
2013 average/good year
2014 average year
2015 average year
who knows when this great man will retire

 

[Chrissie90]

I'm saying that there is a lot of improvement in some of our senior guys, making the point that the blame shouldn't necessarily be put on the fact that guys like Moss, Muston and Dowler are now delisted.

Late 20's is not "over the hill" by any stretch, to say they're past their best is fairly pessimistic view on things. 27/28 is when you'd expect footy players to peak. The only one on our list older than that is Bateman. And I'm not sure if Hodge being 26 really constitutes 'late' 20s.

Conversely - if you think Ellis is playing the best footy is capable of I'd suggest you're mistaken. And Hale's addition to the side will mean that any output from Bailey will be icing, not cake.

It's my opinion that our best 22 is still amongst the best in the league. It underperformed last year. We played a very negative gameplan which didn't suit some of our better players, but it kept us in the hunt with the top 4 teams.

As it should be, any high performance from our young players such as Shiels, Savage and Schoenmakers will be a bonus.

I think our stars in their mid-late 20s dont have much improvement in them. I wish guys in the mid range like ellis, gilham, murphy and guerra could improve but I dont think they can. Our improvement will come from the new guys who have only been around for 3 years or less i think. If these guys dont improve fast i think we will struggle to make the top 4 or even the 8.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

I think our stars in their mid-late 20s dont have much improvement in them. I wish guys in the mid range like ellis, gilham, murphy and guerra could improve but I dont think they can. Our improvement will come from the new guys who have only been around for 3 years or less i think. If these guys dont improve fast i think we will struggle to make the top 4 or even the 8.

Agree with you Chrissie. Hard to see Goo, Murphy and Gilham getting any better as they are all limited ability-wise.

I reckon Ellis will improve once the next wave of youngsters come into the side and take the pressure off him. Happened with Dale Thomas this year - he played with freedom. Ellis has never played with freedom or taken risks. Let's hope it is next year...

 

[Davo23]

Agree with the OP that this is a major concern.


Too many of our youngsters have loitered in the VFL and not developed, to the point that we've had to cut quite a few promising(at one point) picks who've either stagnated or gone backwards.

The connection between BH and the HFC seems to be of some concern as there is mumblings of mis-communication and mixed messages towards those running out for the Mustangs each week, and indeed some guys need to be given the time and encouragement of senior game time.

It goes with all levels of football, but if your 'seconds' are happy and committed, the club is all the better for it.

Anyone have a different view of this now?


.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Nice bump.

Very nice.

 

[Jaeger]

Most of their improvement has come from consistent and regular exposure to senior football.

I'm not convinced that Box Hill and the VFL have been paramount to their development.

 

[TAITA]

Most of their improvement has come from consistent and regular exposure to senior football.

I'm not convinced that Box Hill and the VFL have been paramount to their improvement.

Brendan Bolton has been though - senior coach of the future.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Brendan Bolton has been though - senior coach of the future.

THIS can't speak highly of the guy a really good communicator

 

[grizzlym]

THIS can't speak highly of the guy a really good communicator

I've posted it a number of times, but I am very, very impressed with Bolton. He's a communicator and has the respect of the troops.