Analysis Player development

[Jamezy88]

I know there’s has been a lot posted about our recruiting, but I really think a spotlight needs to be shone on our player development, which I think is just as big if not bigger issue than our drafting.

I know improvement in young players will rarely be linear, but how many times do we see young players come in play a few good/passable games only to then regress/stagnate.
Jones,Mcasey & Fog maybe now Shoenberg and TT to name a few. Hell even Berg has gone backwards compared to what he showed a few years back.

Now I don’t care who you draft, if you don’t have the right individually focused player development in place we won’t go anywhere.

Who is currently working in our player development? I’m guessing this is one of the areas that suffered with all the covid cuts…..but for a rebuilding club this seems to need a lot of work.

 

[Skippos]

Definitely a problem, agreed. The equally big problem is how many long term contracts we give out to these kids before we've had a look at how they're developing

Most clubs don't nail a rebuild first try and have to take a couple of backwards steps and tinker to find the right mix. Having so many speculative kids on contracts 2-3 years longer than they need makes it a lot harder to turn the list over and reload with a couple more cracks. Not saying the blokes we give contracts to all should be delisted, but it ties our hands.

Himmelberg and Frampton got multiple years when they only needed year by year.
Soligo's just been given four years. Sure, he might have had a nice pre season, but we've been burnt doing this before. And nobody's coming after pick 37 in the draft after one season
McPherson, Worrell, Jones, Fogarty, McAsey got multiple years as speculative kids which have only shown flashes
Hately got multiple years (which, to be fair, may have been required to grab him, but still ties our hands given his current output)
Murphy got multiple years as a mid aged non best 22 player who won't have suitors
Murray was extended until the end of 2024 last year. He was a first year SSP player who looked ok at best. He didn't need 3 more years to keep him at the club.
Hamill's got three more years, he'll be 24 when his contact is up. We'll know by the end of this year how he's tracking, and there's a good chance he'll be carried for two years if he's tracking poorly.

It's just mistakes compounding mistakes. Draft the wrong kids, develop them poorly, and then lock up list spots on them for 2-3 years longer than we should. There's nothing wrong with putting fringe players on year to year contracts. Sure, lock up Riley, lock up Rachele, perhaps even lock up Pedlar or a kid the coach is certain is going to be a star and just needs the confidence of a guaranteed future. But it seems like every single u/25 is deemed in that category by the club, and very few become them. There's nothing wrong with having some fire up their clackers to knuckle down and leave nothing on the table to make the grade, or they're done.

 

[Mutineer]

I know there’s has been a lot posted about our recruiting, but I really think a spotlight needs to be shone on our player development, which I think is just as big if not bigger issue than our drafting.

I know improvement in young players will rarely be linear, but how many times do we see young players come in play a few good/passable games only to then regress/stagnate.
Jones,Mcasey & Fog maybe now Shoenberg and TT to name a few. Hell even Berg has gone backwards compared to what he showed a few years back.

Now I don’t care who you draft, if you don’t have the right individually focused player development in place we won’t go anywhere.

Who is currently working in our player development? I’m guessing this is one of the areas that suffered with all the covid cuts…..but for a rebuilding club this seems to need a lot of work.

Marco Bello came on board last year, highly experienced operator so you'd be wrong on that count.

https://au.linkedin.com/in/marco-bello-238b7518

 

[spenze]

Definitely a problem, agreed. The equally big problem is how many long term contracts we give out to these kids before we've had a look at how they're developing

Most clubs don't nail a rebuild first try and have to take a couple of backwards steps and tinker to find the right mix. Having so many speculative kids on contracts 2-3 years longer than they need makes it a lot harder to turn the list over and reload with a couple more cracks. Not saying the blokes we give contracts to all should be delisted, but it ties our hands.

Himmelberg and Frampton got multiple years when they only needed year by year.
Soligo's just been given four years. Sure, he might have had a nice pre season, but we've been burnt doing this before. And nobody's coming after pick 37 in the draft after one season
McPherson, Worrell, Jones, Fogarty, McAsey got multiple years as speculative kids which have only shown flashes
Hately got multiple years (which, to be fair, may have been required to grab him, but still ties our hands given his current output)
Murphy got multiple years as a mid aged non best 22 player who won't have suitors
Murray was extended until the end of 2024 last year. He was a first year SSP player who looked ok at best. He didn't need 3 more years to keep him at the club.
Hamill's got three more years, he'll be 24 when his contact is up. We'll know by the end of this year how he's tracking, and there's a good chance he'll be carried for two years if he's tracking poorly.

It's just mistakes compounding mistakes. Draft the wrong kids, develop them poorly, and then lock up list spots on them for 2-3 years longer than we should. There's nothing wrong with putting fringe players on year to year contracts. Sure, lock up Riley, lock up Rachele, perhaps even lock up Pedlar or a kid the coach is certain is going to be a star and just needs the confidence of a guaranteed future. But it seems like every single u/25 is deemed in that category by the club, and very few become them. There's nothing wrong with having some fire up their clackers to knuckle down and leave nothing on the table to make the grade, or they're done.

Think our contracts full stop have been bad for years now

 

[Scorpus]

Definitely a problem, agreed. The equally big problem is how many long term contracts we give out to these kids before we've had a look at how they're developing

Most clubs don't nail a rebuild first try and have to take a couple of backwards steps and tinker to find the right mix. Having so many speculative kids on contracts 2-3 years longer than they need makes it a lot harder to turn the list over and reload with a couple more cracks. Not saying the blokes we give contracts to all should be delisted, but it ties our hands.

Himmelberg and Frampton got multiple years when they only needed year by year.
Soligo's just been given four years. Sure, he might have had a nice pre season, but we've been burnt doing this before. And nobody's coming after pick 37 in the draft after one season
McPherson, Worrell, Jones, Fogarty, McAsey got multiple years as speculative kids which have only shown flashes
Hately got multiple years (which, to be fair, may have been required to grab him, but still ties our hands given his current output)
Murphy got multiple years as a mid aged non best 22 player who won't have suitors
Murray was extended until the end of 2024 last year. He was a first year SSP player who looked ok at best. He didn't need 3 more years to keep him at the club.
Hamill's got three more years, he'll be 24 when his contact is up. We'll know by the end of this year how he's tracking, and there's a good chance he'll be carried for two years if he's tracking poorly.

It's just mistakes compounding mistakes. Draft the wrong kids, develop them poorly, and then lock up list spots on them for 2-3 years longer than we should. There's nothing wrong with putting fringe players on year to year contracts. Sure, lock up Riley, lock up Rachele, perhaps even lock up Pedlar or a kid the coach is certain is going to be a star and just needs the confidence of a guaranteed future. But it seems like every single u/25 is deemed in that category by the club, and very few become them. There's nothing wrong with having some fire up their clackers to knuckle down and leave nothing on the table to make the grade, or they're done.

I wonder how much of this is being forced to spend the cap minimum and massive front loading of contracts.

Our squad is awful. The actual value of the players is $2-3 million below the cap floor

 

[Jamezy88]

Marco Bello came on board last year, highly experienced operator so you'd be wrong on that count.

https://au.linkedin.com/in/marco-bello-238b7518

View attachment 1356961

Looks a good appointment. Will take more than one pre-season to see it pay off, hopefully we start to see some improvement in this area.

 

[Wazzy36]

I know there’s has been a lot posted about our recruiting, but I really think a spotlight needs to be shone on our player development, which I think is just as big if not bigger issue than our drafting.

I know improvement in young players will rarely be linear, but how many times do we see young players come in play a few good/passable games only to then regress/stagnate.
Jones,Mcasey & Fog maybe now Shoenberg and TT to name a few. Hell even Berg has gone backwards compared to what he showed a few years back.

Now I don’t care who you draft, if you don’t have the right individually focused player development in place we won’t go anywhere.

Who is currently working in our player development? I’m guessing this is one of the areas that suffered with all the covid cuts…..but for a rebuilding club this seems to need a lot of work.

Schoenberg and TT are extremely harsh to put in the same sentence as the other 3.

 

[George Kramer]

Definitely a problem, agreed. The equally big problem is how many long term contracts we give out to these kids before we've had a look at how they're developing

Most clubs don't nail a rebuild first try and have to take a couple of backwards steps and tinker to find the right mix. Having so many speculative kids on contracts 2-3 years longer than they need makes it a lot harder to turn the list over and reload with a couple more cracks. Not saying the blokes we give contracts to all should be delisted, but it ties our hands.

Himmelberg and Frampton got multiple years when they only needed year by year.
Soligo's just been given four years. Sure, he might have had a nice pre season, but we've been burnt doing this before. And nobody's coming after pick 37 in the draft after one season
McPherson, Worrell, Jones, Fogarty, McAsey got multiple years as speculative kids which have only shown flashes
Hately got multiple years (which, to be fair, may have been required to grab him, but still ties our hands given his current output)
Murphy got multiple years as a mid aged non best 22 player who won't have suitors
Murray was extended until the end of 2024 last year. He was a first year SSP player who looked ok at best. He didn't need 3 more years to keep him at the club.
Hamill's got three more years, he'll be 24 when his contact is up. We'll know by the end of this year how he's tracking, and there's a good chance he'll be carried for two years if he's tracking poorly.

It's just mistakes compounding mistakes. Draft the wrong kids, develop them poorly, and then lock up list spots on them for 2-3 years longer than we should. There's nothing wrong with putting fringe players on year to year contracts. Sure, lock up Riley, lock up Rachele, perhaps even lock up Pedlar or a kid the coach is certain is going to be a star and just needs the confidence of a guaranteed future. But it seems like every single u/25 is deemed in that category by the club, and very few become them. There's nothing wrong with having some fire up their clackers to knuckle down and leave nothing on the table to make the grade, or they're done.

Sign them up and then don’t play them aka Davis

 

[Jamezy88]

Schoenberg and TT are extremely harsh to put in the same sentence as the other 3.

I did say maybe and I think they will both still be good players, but how much of that is due to natural talent, compared to their development? TT was taking contested marks and crashing packs in his first few games, seems to be doing less of that now. Maybe it’s instruction.

 

[Wazzy36]

I did say maybe and I think they will both still be good players, but how much of that is due to natural talent, compared to their development? TT was taking contested marks and crashing packs in his first few games, seems to be doing less of that now. Maybe it’s instruction.

Or maybe because Walker was taking the better defender, look at how he performs when walker is in the team and when he isn't. I think how he's playing has more to do with the fact he's a 19yr old KF who now has to take a better defender.

 

[Dewy006]

Which young players under Nicks tenure have genuinely improved? You could maybe say Schoenberg? (Discounting his horrific start to this season). I feel like everyone else has either stagnated at the same level or regressed.

 

[Pick4To6]

I personally think our fear to go ‘all in’ and really rebuild the team is the catalyst to preventing players from developing.

Unless things change, I don’t have any confidence Thilthorpe, Pedler, Cook or even Rachele will develop into the player they are supposed to. Just look at the current midfield rotation, we stick with a very senior group to avoid getting blown out. This is a club cultural thing. We have this desire to remain competitive and we were basically lead kicking and screaming toward a rebuild and if we didn’t have to, we would not have done it. We are only in a rebuild by name only. We continue to everything we can to avoid making positive and long lasting changes to key midfield positions.

Our club manta has to “remain competitive”, rather than win it all at all costs. Our player development will continue to stall until we go balls deep and give the youth the midfield time they need to develop.

We continue to play players out of position, this isn’t a Mathew Nicks thing but Neil Craig, Don Pyke and now Matthew Nicks

Matthew Nicks

Age

49

Ht

187cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.6

3star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.2

3star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.7

4star

G

0.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.2

3star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.4

3star

does it. Jones, Fogarty, McAsey, McHenry and many more have not developed based on where we choose to play them.

Therefore, until the senior coach finds the courage to look towards the future and play them in their best position, allowing them to properly develop we will be an almost team.

 

[Jamezy88]

Going further back, which players that we have drafted have improved significantly under our current SANFL model? Butts, ROB & Doedee, Any others? Maybe Cameron?

In the past we seemed to be good at developing players but poor at retaining them.

I think we all rightly assumed that having our own SANFL, team would help in our player development. But to my untrained eye, we don’t seem to be doing any better than when we farmed the players out to SANFL clubs.

Maybe it’s because we’ve never done a rebuild on this scale and have there for never had to develop such a large group of players at the same time.

I don’t know what the issue is, but it seems to be a bit overly simplistic to blame drafting/talent ID on its own.

 

[jackster83]

Going further back, which players that we have drafted have improved significantly under our current SANFL model? Butts, ROB & Doedee, Any others? Maybe Cameron?

In the past we seemed to be good at developing players but poor at retaining them.

I think we all rightly assumed that having our own SANFL, team would help in our player development. But to my untrained eye, we don’t seem to be doing any better than when we farmed the players out to SANFL clubs.

Maybe it’s because we’ve never done a rebuild on this scale and have there for never had to develop such a large group of players at the same time.

I don’t know what the issue is, but it seems to be a bit overly simplistic to blame drafting/talent ID on its own.

Kelly and Atkins came through our SANFL system to become reasonable role players. Keath and Greenwood likewise.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Name me another AFL player who looks like Fog after 5 years in the system. You could forgive him having tree trunk legs the first few years.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

I personally think our fear to go ‘all in’ and really rebuild the team is the catalyst to preventing players from developing.

Unless things change, I don’t have any confidence Thilthorpe, Pedler, Cook or even Rachele will develop into the player they are supposed to. Just look at the current midfield rotation, we stick with a very senior group to avoid getting blown out. This is a club cultural thing. We have this desire to remain competitive and we were basically lead kicking and screaming toward a rebuild and if we didn’t have to, we would not have done it. We are only in a rebuild by name only. We continue to everything we can to avoid making positive and long lasting changes to key midfield positions.

Our club manta has to “remain competitive”, rather than win it all at all costs. Our player development will continue to stall until we go balls deep and give the youth the midfield time they need to develop.

We continue to play players out of position, this isn’t a Mathew Nicks thing but Neil Craig, Don Pyke and now Matthew Nicks does it. Jones, Fogarty, McAsey, McHenry and many more have not developed based on where we choose to play them.

Therefore, until the senior coach finds the courage to look towards the future and play them in their best position, allowing them to properly develop we will be an almost team.

How many centre bounce attendances do you reckon Jones and McHenry have had in their careers thus far. And does that stay reconcile with a side that has been cellar dwellers for years now.

 

[Thetrader15]

Name me another AFL player who looks like Fog after 5 years in the system. You could forgive him having tree trunk legs the first few years.

Tom Hawkins, circa 2011. That said, Fog really needs to pull a digit out. I wonder if a stint in the SANFL would do him so good with a focus on repeat leads.