Review Pr(O)logue Round, 2024 - Brisbane Lions vs. Carlton

[Nunez]

I'll believe it when I see him stop wincing after contact, even when sometimes that contact is not from a player, but from diving on the grass.

I don't think it's all that uncommon. I fractured my C6 years back and am currently rehabbing an MCL injury - my first instinct is almost always to check the former injury site. Can imagine if I'd got as many shoulder surgeries as Bez I'd be doing just that - checking the shoulder any time there's contact.

That is part of getting through the mental barriers more than physical - hopefully he can feel confident in his body.

 

[briztoon]

I don't think it's all that uncommon. I fractured my C6 years back and am currently rehabbing an MCL injury - my first instinct is almost always to check the former injury site. Can imagine if I'd got as many shoulder surgeries as Bez I'd be doing just that - checking the shoulder any time there's contact.

That is part of getting through the mental barriers more than physical - hopefully he can feel confident in his body.

I'm talking about genuine looks of pain on his face. First thing I noticed in last weeks praccy match, when Bez went for a superman slide along the turf, with no-one on top. He looked in genuine pain as he got up, and went for his shoulder.

 

[Gadzorks]

Doc did an acl too..

Hmmm... Playing surface?

 

[martinson]

Hmmm... Playing surface?

It was slippery but if you look at both Doc and Kiddy's incidents they were a result of in play tackles /congestion . Kiddy didn't even hit the ground. Doc's was a pressure tackle where his leg was screwed unnaturally.

 

[Section 5]

So he gets a mulligan? I’d give Prior a run before I would play Berry next week. If there are no consequences, what’s the point? Is Fagan going to wait for Berry and Payne to ask to not be selected?

Not sure what you and others are on about regarding Berry.
He is our best winger, has been for 2 years now.
It was a coaching mistake to play him at half back.

Fletcher had a good first season with 15 games but 3 involved being subbed off or starting sub.
His game on Friday night was very average but he is a young developing player.
He has promise but we need to see how he goes week in week out in his 2nd season.
We all have high hopes for Fletcher, but he still needs to prove himself this season in my opinion.
Ah Chee is a very solid player but that's how i rate him over his 8 seasons.
If McKenna was available i doubt Ah Chee plays as he was clearly not in the main side during intraclub and the 2 main practice matches.
If Ah Chee was going to break out it would have happened by now. So, we will get much of the same from him.
That was our 3 wingers for Friday night's game, with McCluggage starting on the wing early but then in wing relief rotation with Bailey.
When Kiddy came off Lohmann played mostly wing when on the field, so he moved into the rotation mix but was not great either.

 

[M Malice]

All is not lost people, I had a look at the last few seasons end of H&A ladder and the teams that finished 4th to see what it took to make top 4.

2023- Demons 4th, lost 7 games.
2022- Magpies 4th, lost 6 games.
2021- Lions 4th, lost 7 games.
2020- Cats 4th, lost 5 games.
2019- Magpies 4th, lost 7 games.
2018- Hawks 4th, lost 7 games.

I scrolled through back to the year 2000, twice teams have had to only lose 5 games to make top 4 this century, there were quite a lot of 7/8 loss seasons and a couple of 9 loss seasons that made top 4.

 

[Ceebee]

Collingwood getting a good flogging is good for the soul .
Well done Giants .

 

[buttermuffs]

The Pies loss makes last night more bearable. I doubt no one is writing off Collingwood, could be like our loss to Port last year. Sucks to have blown such a big lead but at least we aren’t the only contending team to have some things to improve upon after the first game.

 

[MacMum]

Collingwood getting a good flogging is good for the soul .
Well done Giants .

I keep laughing every goal GWS get, love it....at least we only got beaten by 1pt.

Both grand finalist's defeated in 1st game. Makes me feel better (sort of)

 

[McIvor]

The Pies loss makes last night more bearable. I doubt no one is writing off Collingwood, could be like our loss to Port last year. Sucks to have blown such a big lead but at least we aren’t the only contending team to have some things to improve upon after the first game.

But unlike Collingwood, we lost at home with only 10 home games left whereas they lost using one of their four interstate trips and have like 18 home or VIC game s left. I took no solace with Pies losing because an our loss was worse and b unlike us they’ve still got practically 18 home games left. Being the only home team unable to win this weekend after the lead we had was pathetic particularly after all the crap about learnings the club spewed forth over the off season.

 

[3KZ is Football]

But unlike Collingwood, we lost at home with only 10 home games left whereas they lost using one of their four interstate trips and have like 18 home or VIC game s left. I took no solace with Pies losing because an our loss was worse and b unlike us they’ve still got practically 18 home games left. Being the only home team unable to win this weekend after the lead we had was pathetic particularly after all the crap about learnings the club spewed forth over the off season.

Weren’t there ‘learnings’ after we folded shamefully against Melbourne at the MCG last year? What happened to those learnings? Fagan must be a slow learner.

When asked at his presser about playing Darcy Gardiner forward, which didn’t work, his position was he won’t judge after one game, because it worked well in the pre-season practice matches, which I think might have been two games. Knowing Fagan, it will take half a season of failure before he realises that his “idea” of playing a career defender who is currently in much better form than Jack Payne, as a forward might not be sustainable. Rather than dropping the out of form player and playing Gardiner in defence, he will rigidly stick to his idea, because it worked in the pre-season practice matches. As the saying goes, Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results – Quote Investigator®

 

[dlanod]

The Pies loss makes last night more bearable. I doubt no one is writing off Collingwood, could be like our loss to Port last year. Sucks to have blown such a big lead but at least we aren’t the only contending team to have some things to improve upon after the first game.

The Pies never looked as good as our first, and their third/fourth looked as bad as our worst (iirc they won the last quarter but that was because of some gifts from the umpires to Bobby Hill).

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

But unlike Collingwood, we lost at home with only 10 home games left whereas they lost using one of their four interstate trips and have like 18 home or VIC game s left. I took no solace with Pies losing because an our loss was worse and b unlike us they’ve still got practically 18 home games left. Being the only home team unable to win this weekend after the lead we had was pathetic particularly after all the crap about learnings the club spewed forth over the off season.

You're forgetting we get a few "home" games at our home away from home which is at Marvel

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Ok haven’t said anything after the game cause wel I wasn’t logged in so can’t comment only read.
Probably a good thing, so just logged back in on the iPhone.
Anyhow
Most has already been said.
A couple of things.
In the second we seem to still have the intensity but just screwed things up.
Patches of play, moments.
I as some may know have been going on about we have to keep possession more so that probably means instead of hoofing it forward we find an exit to hands.
Our handballing , we just over did it.
I watched closely and this happened a couple of times.
First handball out of thick congestion, second player still close to congestion handballs to third player
This player had space, had time to kick but elected to handball to a player who was bloody covered by defenders, turnover.
We just seemed to not have the system quite right.
I don’t mind it still better than hoofing it but everyone in that mix has to be smarter. Biggest mistake we do is when a player has the ball in hand with defenders on his tail handball it to a player two metres away, so dumb,hospital handballs.
Watch Collingwood as an example, they clear the congestion with angles and handballs to someone outside.
You have to give Carlton credit for the pressure going up.
So once their pressure matched ours they pressured us into over handballling.
The other big moments were our tall forwards
F..k me
How many times did Joe run under the ball and as soon as there was a hand in the back his head is down looking for the free.
Hippy , can’t even remember his game,didn’t do much.
Thought dizzy was fine as that tall forward running to the wings or boundary at least he made an impact.
Get smarter with our handball chains, mark the football or at least, bloody make a solid effort, kick through the middle and we win by plenty.
Such a disappointing game in the end
As it stands right now our key forwards are not up to winning us a grand final.
Just have to get that shit out of Joe
If not we just won’t make it imo.
Lastly gees some of our so called leaders around the ball, talk about dropping your head when the shit hits the fan.
We get dev back in hopefully next week so as unpolished as he is he actually is solid as a fighter and that’s what we lacked.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Ok haven’t said anything after the game cause wel I wasn’t logged in so can’t comment only read.
Probably a good thing, so just logged back in on the iPhone.
Anyhow
Most has already been said.
A couple of things.
In the second we seem to still have the intensity but just screwed things up.
Patches of play, moments.
I as some may know have been going on about we have to keep possession more so that probably means instead of hoofing it forward we find an exit to hands.
Our handballing , we just over did it.
I watched closely and this happened a couple of times.
First handball out of thick congestion, second player still close to congestion handballs to third player
This player had space, had time to kick but elected to handball to a player who was bloody covered by defenders, turnover.
We just seemed to not have the system quite right.
I don’t mind it still better than hoofing it but everyone in that mix has to be smarter. Biggest mistake we do is when a player has the ball in hand with defenders on his tail handball it to a player two metres away, so dumb,hospital handballs.
Watch Collingwood as an example, they clear the congestion with angles and handballs to someone outside.
You have to give Carlton credit for the pressure going up.
So once their pressure matched ours they pressured us into over handballling.
The other big moments were our tall forwards
F..k me
How many times did Joe run under the ball and as soon as there was a hand in the back his head is down looking for the free.
Hippy , can’t even remember his game,didn’t do much.
Thought dizzy was fine as that tall forward running to the wings or boundary at least he made an impact.
Get smarter with our handball chains, mark the football or at least, bloody make a solid effort, kick through the middle and we win by plenty.
Such a disappointing game in the end
As it stands right now our key forwards are not up to winning us a grand final.
Just have to get that s**t out of Joe
If not we just won’t make it imo.
Lastly gees some of our so called leaders around the ball, talk about dropping your head when the s**t hits the fan.
We get dev back in hopefully next week so as unpolished as he is he actually is solid as a fighter and that’s what we lacked.

If our key forwards are holding us back from winning a grand final then they're good enough to get us extremely close

Forgot how Collingwoods key forwards played blinders and won them the match

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

If our key forwards are holding us back from winning a grand final then they're good enough to get us extremely close

Forgot how Collingwoods key forwards played blinders and won them the match

We don’t have wingers like Collingwood and we don’t have Pendleton in the centre or hovering around just on the outside.
We have to play to our strengths,and that is players like clugga stepping up.

In that grand final hippy was not switched on ,dropped flaming chest marks
I just want to see our key forwards do their job .
If either hippie or danniher fail next week like Friday, I’d go with two talls , gardner and either hippie or Joe and Rayner as the third.
Don’t be scared to drop them.

 

[Clarkythelion]

We had a great pre-season, no real injuries, good training, good process and convinced ourselves there was no hangover from playing in the Grand Final that we were hungry. Everyone was tipping us to win it this year and we believed we had a great chance.

Pre-season wins over Gold Coast and Sydney and a first half against Carlton that suggested everything was just travelling hunky dory. Then had our ass handed to us because we forgot that to win footy games, you have to play, not watch.

The loss was more a coaching fail than anything.

I maintain as I have for the last few years we have a leadership problem more than anything. We don't have a Voss, Selwood or Hodge type that will charge up out of the foxhole and yell 'follow me" into the battle. We just don't have a, leader by example, we have very talented footballers, good media performers, people who set professionalism examples but not someone that lifts the team with the deeds they set on the field in the big moments.

I though Dunkley could be the bloke that does the thing, that desperate act that lifts the team, the team see how much it means and they follow, the flag bearer for effort, but alas he is not, or not yet. Just too many 'watchers' in games where we loose our composure.

Still believe we can win the Grand Final, we got a touch up first round last year, we will be fine.

 

[dmac_55]

Just bizarre that we are running with the Gardiner experiment up forward, then make the change within our first game and send Payne forward and Dizzy back.

Gunston was our 'third forward' last year until he wasn't, then we rolled with Daniher/Hippy and Rayner as the third forward.

To be swinging guys back and forward in round 1 means the coaching staff isn't sure what to do. Rayner played HB for like 2 weeks before being swung forward last year.

If we are going to make a big change like that mid game, I would actually prefer if Harris gets a quarter up forward. Play Joe in ruck and Andrews up forward if we need to make a comeback etc.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Just bizarre that we are running with the Gardiner experiment up forward, then make the change within our first game and send Payne forward and Dizzy back.

Gunston was our 'third forward' last year until he wasn't, then we rolled with Daniher/Hippy and Rayner as the third forward.

To be swinging guys back and forward in round 1 means the coaching staff isn't sure what to do. Rayner played HB for like 2 weeks before being swung forward last year.

If we are going to make a big change like that mid game, I would actually prefer if Harris gets a quarter up forward. Play Joe in ruck and Andrews up forward if we need to make a comeback etc.

I'm not sure the Dizzy experiment got a fair run, Payne got absolutely flogged in the third qtr, he had the head down and his attitude was defeated, there had to be a change so dizzy got sent back on it did stem the flow a little so we were lucky to have the flexibility. I think overall it was just a bad game that will flick our switch.

Someone better at stats than me could possible look at the Gardnier experiment with Rebound From 50's, I'm assuming he is there for some better forward line defence. Has him being there slowed down the ball bouncing back out of our forward line? The sample size is probably too small to judge yet.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Remember when the criticism of Fagan was that he wasn’t flexible enough?

 

[Section 5]

One thing i noticed this game that as a side we only occasionally did in the previous few years.

In Friday nights game the players did not stand on the mark the majority of the time. This has to be a coaching instruction.
Lions have now joined the group of teams that mostly go back the required minimum 5 meters from the mark.
That usually works out to be around the 8 meters as you don't want to give away a 50-meter penalty.

I have no doubt it has some benefits in certain situations but in general i am opposed.
My reason being the players just do it without thinking when it should not be done.

In my opinion anywhere within the 60-meter mark from goal our players should stand on the mark while opposition shooting for goal.
I noticed on two occasions when a Carlton player had a kick on goal, we dropped back that 8 meters. One was on the 50-meter mark, the other just outside the 50-meter mark. We gave them that extra 8 meters for a shot on goal, crazy stuff in my opinion.

Also, man the mark when the ball goes out on the full within the 9-15-meter area when in our forward area.
On a few occasions when we missed scoring just to the boundary side of the point posts we gave the Carlton player too much room for his kick decision.
Instead on manning the mark on the 9-meter line we gave them more room by moving back that extra 8 meters.
This results in less pressure on the Carlton player bringing the ball back into play.

Any mark or free in the center of the ground i also think you should man the mark.
It is too dangerous to give away another non pressure free 8 meters when opposition is kicking to their forwards.

All other situations i don't have a problem with as it has its advantages otherwise coaches would not be using the tactic.

 

[dlanod]

Remember when the criticism of Fagan was that he wasn’t flexible enough?

"Fagan, stop picking the same teams over and over!"

...

"NOT LIKE THAT!"

 

[Monkey Daniel]

Absolute lowlight of Fagan’s presser - “I’ll have to talk to the players and ask them what happened.” Seriously? Given the list that he has had at his disposal and the advantages conferred by our home ground, Fagan is the worst performing coach in the AFL by a mile.
Finals 2019 - 2023 for no Premiership. The window will close eventually.

Serious?
2019 first year in finals after being 5hit for several years, were never going to win Premiership
2020 no-one was beating Richmond, Geelong who had been playing finals for more than 10 years, couldn’t go with them after half time
2021 would we have put in a better effort than the dogs ? Maybe but the result would still be a loss to the Demons. Don’t forget Dogs won flag in 2016
2022 after several near misses since 2011, Cats finally salute
2023 miss a Premiership by less than a goal, to a team with more players over 30 and had played in losing GF in 2018
Window is well and truly still open

And the way you carry on about Fagan, reminds me of the old Cats supporters consistently calling for Chris Scott’s head, only for them to head to the hills to hide when he delivered

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

Also in 2021 we lost Rayner & Hipwood to ACL injuries. Mcstay, Gardiner and Payne were injured in finals. That was never going to be our year yet we went within a kick of advancing to a very winnable Prelim final that year.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Serious?
2019 first year in finals after being 5hit for several years, were never going to win Premiership
2020 no-one was beating Richmond, Geelong who had been playing finals for more than 10 years, couldn’t go with them after half time
2021 would we have put in a better effort than the dogs ? Maybe but the result would still be a loss to the Demons. Don’t forget Dogs won flag in 2016
2022 after several near misses since 2011, Cats finally salute
2023 miss a Premiership by less than a goal, to a team with more players over 30 and had played in losing GF in 2018
Window is well and truly still open

And the way you carry on about Fagan, reminds me of the old Cats supporters consistently calling for Chris Scott’s head, only for them to head to the hills to hide when he delivered

I think we could've won it in 2020 if Zorko wasn't injured.