Training Preseason 22-23

[weltschmerz]

May took care of Bruce pretty easily in the last game, even allowing for Bruce’s lack of fitness.

Bruce has been easily taken care of when playing forward since coming back from the ACL. Lobb felt very much like a Bruce replacement rather than someone to play alongside him.

 

[dogwatch]

Bruce has been easily taken care of when playing forward since coming back from the ACL. Lobb felt very much like a Bruce replacement rather than someone to play alongside him.

A bit rough to assume from his first few games back from an ACL that that’s all we’re ever going to get from Bruce.

It could be correct but TBF we should see how he goes with a proper preseason behind him.

 

[philmb]

One for ITK. Lots of positive vibes from what you’ve seen in training first hand, but where do you see our potential weakness(es)? I’ve never jumped off the positive bandwagon but am realist enough to know there’s room for improvement. What do we need to still address at training?

 

[doggiesin08]

A bit rough to assume from his first few games back from an ACL that that’s all we’re ever going to get from Bruce.

It could be correct but TBF we should see how he goes with a proper preseason behind him.

Speaking with absolutely no medical background, I suspect coming up against strong upper body opposition is super challenging coming back from an ACL.

When May and Bruce are pushing against each other it’s not just arms/chest vs arms/chest but rather there’s a huge load going through the legs. If Bruce isn’t 100% confident in the stability of his knee he’s got no chance in a wrestle / push-shove against May.

I think Charlie Curnow is an interesting case study, appreciating his knee problems were not ACLs and he spent longer out of the game. His 4 games at the backend of 2021 were very ordinary (2 goals 5 behinds, 2 contested marks) against not great opposition (StK, GCS, Port, GWS) before he came back with a great 2022.

 

[perro_loco]

Exactly what I thought.

Gee that would be a massive boost to the side.

Same with Bruce, if he came back to form and fitness.

I thought he may have been playing injured. The drop off was substantial and surprising. Hope he comes back with fire!

 

[perro_loco]

You run the WB forums on facebook? I don’t envy you at all, some real special posters in that group that make me cringe at times.

Echoing what others have said, good to have you onboard.

Welcome back. Don’t leave the group because of cretins. I support you! Just subscribed to your YouTube channel which looks great! Thanks!

 

[perro_loco]

Raak has increased his bulk. He still has a little way to go, but we will see him feature at some point. Reads the ball beautifully and has great nous. Size is his biggest enemy, as he is a bit of an inbetweener.

Sometimes in betweers are gold when they mature.

 

[Inside The Kennel]

One for ITK. Lots of positive vibes from what you’ve seen in training first hand, but where do you see our potential weakness(es)? I’ve never jumped off the positive bandwagon but am realist enough to know there’s room for improvement. What do we need to still address at training?

One of the key statistical red flags from 2021 was the opposition's scoring from our forward 50. This is the number one weakness from a quantatative perspective for me. It has been evident that we have targeted this deficit over the off-season with a) a greater emphasis of tackling/forward pressure and b) zoning of the mids and defenders when the ball is in our forward line.

For point a), the repeat effort tackles has been up, though our small forward stocks to me remains the area where our stocks are thin. West, Weightman, Garcia and McLean, plus Arthur Jones, Charlie Clarke and some of our rotating small mids will have this at the top of their non-negotiable KPIs to arrest last season's trend. Additionally and something that has been very obvious in match sim is that our tall defenders have been instructed to work the tall forwards over. Jones, Bruce and Keath are all ultra fit and were running off in waves to pressure Naughton, Lobb and Jamarra to go with them or risk an outnumber and subsequent score launch. As a result, the workrate of the forwards has been right up, suggesting that our tall forwards may have been key to allowing the leaks last year. The dual benefit from practising this, aside from the fitness gain, is that the tall forwards now recognise themselves as critical in keeping the ball locked in and that accountability has been rammed down their throat, while it has also allowed us to practise a more attacking style from our tall backs to take on the game in the same style that Richards, Dale, Daniel and Williams do. So in summary, expect greater pressure from our forwards and dare from our tall backs.

For point b) the instructional line coaching from from Brendan, Matt and Rohan has been loud and relentless. The education of the territory to guard and positioning to prevent opposition transition has been a focus, with constant communication and feedback between players and coaches to get it right.

 

[adogsfan5]

One for ITK. Lots of positive vibes from what you’ve seen in training first hand, but where do you see our potential weakness(es)? I’ve never jumped off the positive bandwagon but am realist enough to know there’s room for improvement. What do we need to still address at training?

Our 3 biggest issues this season IMO:

-Defending opposition ball use from their defensive 50 to their forward 50 so easily.

-Our forwards flying for the same footy and spoiling each other. On top of that, our slow ball use and poor kicking inside 50. Could be the forwards at fault too for their leading pattens but not 100% sure.

-Teams getting a run on and us not being able to stop it.

 

[BrisDog]

Our 3 biggest issues this season IMO:

-Defending opposition ball use from their defensive 50 to their forward 50 so easily.

-Our forwards flying for the same footy and spoiling each other. On top of that, our slow ball use and poor kicking inside 50. Could be the forwards at fault too for their leading pattens but not 100% sure.

-Teams getting a run on and us not being able to stop it.

Melbourne is the GF in 2021.

Freo in the Elim in 2022.

If we don’t have 4-6 pragmatic tacticians in the off-season working on eliminating the above season killing periods, who are not sycophants to Bevo, this club can go and get f**ked.

Here is a tip - learn how to shut down and reduce the damage. Like a fire, smother the oxygen and contain the destruction. For me it was always put Dunkley in Gawn/Darcy’s hit zone and stop the other 2 midfielders hoping for the perfect tap from English……maybe get West in there now?

That and play McComb in the seconds.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

May took care of Bruce pretty easily in the last game, even allowing for Bruce’s lack of fitness.

May is not the player you want to come up against if your are coming off an ACL and still struggling with form and fitness.

He wears his opponent tighter than a ladies pantyhose and is an expert at reading the flight of the ball and either killing the ball dead by marking it or spiking it away. However, he is even better at manoeuvring his direct opponent out of the way by fair of foul means.

Im not sure that Lobb would've fared any better if he was in the side. May is the antithesis of Zaine Cordy who Lobb dinned out on. The closest analogue we have to May is Alex Keath. Given their propensity to get pissed at their teammates when they are not given adequate coverage.

Our 3 biggest issues this season IMO:

-Defending opposition ball use from their defensive 50 to their forward 50 so easily.

This is the number one issue that Beveridge and Co. Need to address. Im not sure how going taller is going to address this. However, I believe that this issue stems as much from how our mids and half forwards set up as it is from our dearth of genuine pressure forwards. For mine the best that we looked all season was when Weightman, West and Garcia were all played predominantly as forwards. It's just that the former injured his shoulder and wasn't really the same afterwards and the latter just couldn't maintain their form for more than a few weeks.

-Our forwards flying for the same footy and spoiling each other. On top of that, our slow ball use and poor kicking inside 50. Could be the forwards at fault too for their leading pattens but not 100% sure.

This is problems number two and like problem 1. Again, Im not sure that having a surplus of talls and Weightman insisting on playing as one is going to be an easy one for Beveridge and Co. to work out. I suspect that we will mostly see Naughton, JUH Weightman playing as a small tall and a rotation of Lobb and English rotating through. I can't see us going with those 3 full time let alone adding what should be a fully fit Bruce into the mix. God only knows what they have in store for a phenom like Darcy. I'd like to hold him back and let him develop until we no longer can. It's going to be fascinating see what we go with.

-Teams getting a run on and us not being able to stop it.

See above.

One thing is certain. The wiseness or folly of extending Beveridges contract early is going to hinge on how well he solves the fundamental issues that have plagued his teams for a number of seasons. Issues that haven't looked close to being addressed. Indeed I maintain that they were compounded by his insistence on persisting with his bonkers manning of the mark strategies that in my expert opinion were an absolute pox on our entire season and went a long way to explaining our spluttering season and early exit from the finals.

 

[adogsfan5]

May is not the player you want to come up against if your are coming off an ACL and still struggling with form and fitness.

He wears his opponent tighter than a ladies pantyhose and is an expert at reading the flight of the ball and either killing the ball dead by marking it or spiking it away. However, he is even better at manoeuvring his direct opponent out of the way by fair of foul means.

Im not sure that Lobb would've fared any better if he was in the side. May is the antithesis of Zaine Cordy who Lobb dinned out on. The closest analogue we have to May is Alex Keath. Given their propensity to get pissed at their teammates when they are not given adequate coverage.



This is the number one issue that Beveridge and Co. Need to address. Im not sure how going taller is going to address this. However, I believe that this issue stems as much from how our mids and half forwards set up as it is from our dearth of genuine pressure forwards. For mine the best that we looked all season was when Weightman, West and Garcia were all played predominantly as forwards. It's just that the former injured his shoulder and wasn't really the same afterwards and the latter just couldn't maintain their form for more than a few weeks.



This is problems number two and like problem 1. Again, Im not sure that having a surplus of talls and Weightman insisting on playing as one is going to be an easy one for Beveridge and Co. to work out. I suspect that we will mostly see Naughton, JUH Weightman playing as a small tall and a rotation of Lobb and English rotating through. I can't see us going with those 3 full time let alone adding what should be a fully fit Bruce into the mix. It's going to be fascinating see what we go with.


See above.

One thing is certain. The wiseness or folly of extending Beveridges contract early is going to hinge on how well he solves the fundamental issues that have plagued his teams for a number of seasons. Issues that haven't looked close to being addressed. Indeed I maintain that they were compounded by his insistence on persisting with his bonkers manning of the mark strategies that in my expert opinion were an absolute pox on our entire season and went a long way to explaining our spluttering season and early exit from the finals.

Yep, spot on mate!

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I expect Bruce as a defender to be a complete wash, but I do hope I'm wrong. His change of direction has never been particularly great and it was terrible last year - it remains to be seen how much he'll be able to get back post-ACL. Our defensive system does hide that to some extent, but if our expectation is to play a 3 KPD setup as it seems we prefer, he's going to be forced to play on much smaller and more mobile forwards regularly. I can't see that being a positive.

I get the thinking behind trying him down back and am not opposed to it, but I think realistically, he's going to be best utilised as backup for Lobb/JUH.

 

[adogsfan5]

I expect Bruce as a defender to be a complete wash, but I do hope I'm wrong. His change of direction has never been particularly great and it was terrible last year - it remains to be seen how much he'll be able to get back post-ACL. Our defensive system does hide that to some extent, but if our expectation is to play a 3 KPD setup as it seems we prefer, he's going to be forced to play on much smaller and more mobile forwards regularly. I can't see that being a positive.

I get the thinking behind trying him down back and am not opposed to it, but I think realistically, he's going to be best utilised as backup for Lobb/JUH.

Why would he play on smaller quicker forwards? Wouldn’t we be better off playing him on the slow gorilla forwards (Hawkins, Walker, Gawn), then playing Jones on the more agile types (Cameron, Hipwood, Curnow) and then let Keath sag off as an intercepter?

 

[weltschmerz]

Why would he play on smaller quicker forwards? Wouldn’t we be better off playing him on the slow gorilla forwards (Hawkins, Walker, Gawn), then playing Jones on the more agile types (Cameron, Hipwood, Curnow) and then let Keath sag off as an intercepter?

Gardner is also very quick.

 

[adogsfan5]

Gardner is also very quick.

Yep another who can take an agile forward. Just want him away from the gorillas.

 

[BrisDog]

Seriously, most posting on this forum would push over Josh Bruce like a cardboard box.

Spends a lot of time on the hair and not a lot on core strength. He was a liability last year. I acknowledge that he was recovering from an ACL but no excuses. I will never forget May vs Bruce - that was embarrassing.

 

[weltschmerz]

I think Bruce is a backup player this year. That's not a bad thing for a player his age coming off an ACL.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

We're going ok if we can't really justify a place in our best 22 for a guy who kicked 48 goals two seasons ago*

*I now invoke the Billy Gowers clause.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Why would he play on smaller quicker forwards? Wouldn’t we be better off playing him on the slow gorilla forwards (Hawkins, Walker, Gawn), then playing Jones on the more agile types (Cameron, Hipwood, Curnow) and then let Keath sag off as an intercepter?

To be honest, I think you massively overrate Bruce's strength in a contest. He has always worked far better when he's been on the move. I don’t think Bruce would be halving many contests on Hawkins.

 

[Inside The Kennel]

Seriously, most posting on this forum would push over Josh Bruce like a cardboard box.

Spends a lot of time on the hair and not a lot on core strength. He was a liability last year. I acknowledge that he was recovering from an ACL but no excuses. I will never forget May vs Bruce - that was embarrassing.

In all due respect, Josh Bruce is one of the strongest players at our Club, as evidenced by his top three finish in our bench pressing.

To crush your claims further, he is sporting a buzz cut and rumours have it that he spends less than 0.5 seconds grooming it each morning now.

As you point out, he was coming off an ACL last year and now has completed an extended preseason including humidity training in Bali. He is fit, toned, strong and working hard to give us our best shot at a premiership. The least you could do is show some support and an ounce of kindness, inaccuracies aside.

 

[_Cerberus_]

People are still forgetting Bevos words. "We are training him down back now, INCASE we need him. We already know he can play forward"

Sounds more like he is ear marked for the dual / rotational role, like Darcy. I still see him playing more forward, and defence will be a "Break Glass" incase of injuries type of thing. Where Jones or Keath especially, break down with injuries. Not that he will be a full time defender.

People were to harsh on his end of season form, yes it was poor. But he had basically no preseason, coming off an ACL, you can't expect much. We seem to forget what an important part of the team he was during the first half of the season in 2021, where he, Naughton and English were an awesome sight to see, before it started to fall a part due to a few reasons.

That game vs North was the best game by any of our forwards since probably Barry Hall. Though Naughtons effort vs Richmond is up there. Love how the fans and players were so invested in helping him get to 10 goals late.

 

[adogsfan5]

People are still forgetting Bevos words. "We are training him down back now, INCASE we need him. We already know he can play forward"

Sounds more like he is ear marked for the dual / rotational role, like Darcy. I still see him playing more forward, and defence will be a "Break Glass" incase of injuries type of thing. Where Jones or Keath especially, break down with injuries. Not that he will be a full time defender.

People were to harsh on his end of season form, yes it was poor. But he had basically no preseason, coming off an ACL, you can't expect much. We seem to forget what an important part of the team he was during the first half of the season in 2021, where he, Naughton and English were an awesome sight to see, before it started to fall a part due to a few reasons.

That game vs North was the best game by any of our forwards since probably Barry Hall. Though Naughtons effort vs Richmond is up there. Love how the fans and players were so invested in helping him get to 10 goals late.

I’d love to see him play forward and regain that form, but he ain’t getting a game if Naughton, Lobb and Ugle-Hagan are playing mate.

 

[BrisDog]

In all due respect, Josh Bruce is one of the strongest players at our Club, as evidenced by his top three finish in our bench pressing.

To crush your claims further, he is sporting a buzz cut and rumours have it that he spends less than 0.5 seconds grooming it each morning now.

As you point out, he was coming off an ACL last year and now has completed an extended preseason including humidity training in Bali. He is fit, toned, strong and working hard to give us our best shot at a premiership. The least you could do is show some support and an ounce of kindness, inaccuracies aside.

More interested in his squat and DL stats - not bench and bi’s. He had nothing below the hips last year and should never have played.

In defence - he celebrated others goals better than anyone.

 

[Mantis Toboggan]

I’ve seen a lot of posters air their concern about the amount of talls we are now blessed with and how they all fit in the same team. While that type of concern is valid I think it’s worth looking at the roles these guys are going to be asked to play and their other attributes, aside from ‘being tall’.

Naughton is probably the most obvious anomaly when it comes to this discussion. Possibly the best mark in the game but, if asked to play differently, could easily play smaller. Clearly we want him crashing packs and enjoying his game but maybe now with Lobb up there he can drag his man away from the marking contest and then come in for the crumb. There isn’t a tall defender I can think of who could look after Naughton aerially but also stick with him when he’s bulldozing around at ground level.

JUH may one day be an outright power forward but he maybe has a couple of years in him to play a mid sized role where he looks to play off his bigger teammates rather than go for the mark himself.

English…without doubt a tall but in the ruck role he’s as agile and as good below the knees as you’re gonna get.

Keath. Well it all depends on which Alex Keath turns up in 2023. Lots of people worrying he’s done but to me his problems last year looked mental rather than physical. If he can come back to his best then he’s another very athletic tall who isn’t just limited to aerial contests.

So I guess my point is that the sheer number of talls we have is not all that important, but more who they are and how we use them.

And for the love of god can someone tell my iPhone that I do not want to auto-correct the word ‘talls’ to ‘talks’.