- May 6, 2007
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the only measurement relevant to a normal person is a premiership
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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Pt2: Adrian Dodoro: Football’s Biggest Fraud IMO
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I don’t agree. Essendon has a reasonably deep talent pool in the 18-22 bracket. You just haven’t seen them lately due to injury. They’re there, but only if they get the fitness & conditioning problem solved. It has 2-3 list gaps it will need to close over the next 24 months. Potentially a big bodied contested midfielder (1), possibly an additional small forward (2), a full forward (3) and possibly an additional running back flanker (4). Apart from this, the list is talented and in place with a strong spine (McKay / Reid, Draper /Bryan, Jones). Injury management now required to facilitate development of this group.
- Jul 13, 2015
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the only measurement relevant to a normal person is a premiership
For anyone who has seen 10+ flags Id agree. For others just making finals is a win.
Not really. I mean, they are overpaid, but that’s free agency. It’s not staggering, it happens every year.
McStay got 600k a year - he’s a literal career 10 disposal, 1 goal a game player. At a club that just had to force out expensive contracts because they butchered it. As much as Pies fans think this was “moneyball” and they wouldn’t have won without him, fact is they won without him.
Zac Williams? Tom Rockliff got 650k a year nearly half a decade ago ffs.
the only measurement relevant to a normal person is a premiership
Yet we all know the moment Essendon wins a final you will all carry on quoting and bumping posts and going off.
That will be the true indicator of how much it has hurt.
The issue is that most of Essendon's best players are in their prime now
Draper, Ridley and McGrath are 25. Parish, Redman, Weideman, Langford are 26. Wright is 27. Merrett, Kelly and Hind 28. Stringer 29. That's why Dodoro wants to add McKay (26 soon) and Gresham (26)
There's a group about to hit their prime: Caldwell (23), Jones and Martin (23 before next season starts) and now Duursma (23).
Reasonably deep talent pool in the 18-22 bracket? I guess if you count Jones and Martin, but otherwise it is what, Bryan (meh), Cox (meh), Reid (barely shown anything other than being quite tall), Perkins (fine) and Hobbs, plus Tsatas (first year was fine).
This is a list that really should be starting to compete across the next 2-3 seasons, particularly having gone in on McKay and Gresham. And yet while there is someone decent at almost every position on the field (small forward and running defenders a bit thin, as are the wings) I don't think there is anyone who is top 5 in the league at their position, and probably only Draper who looks like they could get there any time soon. I guess Ridley if he goes up another notch, or you can hope one of the skinny/unproven guys comes through.
That's a recipe for mediocrity. You might well jump up into the finals if everything goes smoothly but how on earth do you actually win a final without a genuine prime mover? If you sneak into 8th this year, you're facing Carlton who have Cripps/Curnow/Weitering/Walsh who are the 4 best players on the field on the day. Win that and you play Melbourne and have to somehow deal with Gawn/Petracca/Oliver/May/Lever. There's a world where even 2024 Essnedon are the ST Kilda of this year (who have very similar list profile to Essendon IMO), and who got smoked by GWS at home in their first final.
I think that's why the 'haven't won a final' thing resonates. Dodoro just has this knack for making solid trades and picks that are indvidually good decisions, but never putting the pieces together for a premiership. The two A grade players Essendon have had in his time are Daniher and Watson - both father/son. The other was Tippa who only got promoted from ESsendon's VFL team because of the drugs saga.
I say this as a Carlton supporter who has gone trhough a lot of years where even mediocrity would have been appreciated - and we've also had similar issues at times. SOS was far too smart for his own good and made a lot of brilliant trades that did very little to make the team better in the long run. We also then had a patch of overpaying for good players who don't move the needle (Williams, Martin, McGovern, possibly even Cerra to be honest). But Carlton are a (technically) top 4 team now because we also had the balls to move up and target Weitering/McKay/Curnow all in one hit, and also because we have now moved on to finding cheaper options who do provide reliable upgrades (Acres, Newman, Hewitt and even Pittonet).
evo
Let's hit the f*ken road!
Exciting times for Bomber fans.
- May 6, 2007
- 42,100
- 25,657
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Tottenham Hotspurs, Melbourne Vixen
- May 6, 2007
- 42,100
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- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Tottenham Hotspurs, Melbourne Vixen
im not a ****wit so won't be carrying on like a pork chop. The only posts ill bump will be the ones where posters like yourselves shift the goalposts to again bag Essendon
- May 6, 2007
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I appreciate the effort and happy to discuss but feel there is much more than what's been observed.
Apart from Zac Merret and Darcy Parish who I would bank on A and B+ players respectfully, we are basing our current list make up on potential. Nic Martin and Sam Durham are only just getting started but shown potential to be B grade players if not better. Mason Redman and Kyle Langford literally made the AA squad this year so need to be acknowledged as decent AFL players. Peter Wright had a year out of the box in 2022 but still averaged almost 2 goals a game in 2023 to show he is a reasonable enough focal point.
Sure the key backs are a little thin and even I will acknowledge McKay isn't worth the money he is being paid however it is encouraging that we are going for an actual KPD not a pseudo type that Adrian Dodoro and co have preferences for the best part of a decade. Gresham, Duursma should be considered role players, if they turn into anything more that's a huge win. Goldstein is considered the number 2 ruck behind Draper who is expected to miss some footy in 2024 so why not go and get one of the most under rated rucks this century for peanuts?
The bits about Essendon being in there prime now is a fair enough thing to point out but to be fair, 27 isn't exactly old. Stringer (28) has hardly played in 2023, when he did we were so focused on him winning games for us we lost our way. Hind (29) is a role player and someone we should be actively seeking to upgrade this offseason (seems more draft based now imho), the 25 - 27 year olds are all in there prime and should we get a reasonable improvement from Harry Jones, Zac Reid and the younger midfield brigade who have high enough ceilings then we may very well explode in 2025 but you are correct it may not come and we will be stuck in 2018 all over again. Topping up for no reason with no success behind us.
Rambling on a little bit but happy someone is here to actually discuss in one of these threads, kudos
- Jun 12, 2018
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That’s what blues fan have been saying for years.the only measurement relevant to a normal person is a premiership
They got to a prelim and changed their tune pretty quickly
Merrett is quite clearly an A grader
Think this is a fairly myopic view of Essendon’s youth.
Tsatas, Martin and Hobbs have shown great signs for first and second year players. Cox and Reid have had their career heavily impacted by injury so it’s harsh to write them off. Cox in particular will at the very minimum be a solid 3rd tall defender he’s spending time as a wing/forward in case he has a higher ceiling.
I’m not sure it’s going to be lack of talent that holds Essendon’s list build back. Gresham and McKay are good gets for a team that needs to spend cap space and we are adding another top 10 pick at the draft. It’s that if history is anything to go by the Dons will disregard long term development of the list/youth to try and win around older players who have equity with the people who run the club that have no chance of being part of the next good Essendon team.
This year that will be Stringer, Shiel, Heppell (shudders) and potentially Goldstein (shudders)
I don’t agree on much if this, although you’ve had a good look at the list so credit granted.
I actually think the talent in the younger ranks is strong. We just haven’t seen much of it emerge because of injury. It’s so easy to flippantly put out names of their young stick as ‘meh’ or whatever but much of this comes down to no progression and development.
So much of these players development will come from the progression the club makes in stepping up the culture / environment (elite AFL lifestyle as Scott eludes to), conditioning and the development coaching. On this basis, it’s unfair (imo) and a bit lazy to put out names and argue we’ve seen nothing from ‘X’ and ‘Y’ therefore they’re no good.
Reid was the most talented key back and his early games have validated this (VFL watchers will agree). We saw in 2021 what Jones / Cox could do, talent doesn’t disappear. It’s the fitness, conditioning and then the confidence that does. They’re talented, Jones in particular. Perkins is talented but just needs another 12-24 months to find his spot. Martin is obvious, Hobbs is going to be a strong player in the contest and Tsatas has lots of talent as well. Draper, Bryan are both young and have 7-10 years ahead of them. That’s a strong core group.
There’s no reason why it can’t attract 3-4 highly accomplished players via FA / trading to support this group.
Because club has been a broken failed enterprise for so long, the team hasn’t evolved at any point. It self destructs on the back of inpatients but this is all caused by the cultural failings and the poor management of its conditioning, development and a poor standard environment since at least 2012.
The way out is exactly what Barham, Vozzo & Scott are now executing quietly and steadily in the background following that review end of last year.
Will the club succeed. Time will tell. If it rides out the bumps over the next 18 months and fixes the areas I mentioned, the rest will take care of itself. That’s as simple as it gets.
Dodoro or no Dodoro.
zeggie
You can't kick goals when you're unconscious.
This coming from the coach who would skip training and meetings to sink some cans on the golf course at 10am.
Now that's a shit eating grin
- Jun 12, 2018
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We all strive for a flag but footys a lot more enjoyable when you win 15 games as opposed to 5
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All supporter bases have this tendency to overhype injury prone young players who have not shown much at AFL level.
The longer they are injured, the bigger the hype.
You're always just one preseason away from tearing up the league until all of a sudden they're like Ben McKay in their 7th year with 70 games under their belt and not a whole lot of upside.
The only measure of talent is proven performance at AFL level over a stretch of time. Until they do that, it's all just hype.
The way Essendon fans talk about Jones, Reid and Cox is insane. Jones showed a little bit years ago, but a long way to go until he'd be considered a bankable 10 year player.
When Essendon youth finally prove they can stand up to the rigors of football, I'll become a believer. Until then it's just hope and hype.
The longer they are injured, the bigger the hype.
You're always just one preseason away from tearing up the league until all of a sudden they're like Ben McKay in their 7th year with 70 games under their belt and not a whole lot of upside.
The only measure of talent is proven performance at AFL level over a stretch of time. Until they do that, it's all just hype.
The way Essendon fans talk about Jones, Reid and Cox is insane. Jones showed a little bit years ago, but a long way to go until he'd be considered a bankable 10 year player.
When Essendon youth finally prove they can stand up to the rigors of football, I'll become a believer. Until then it's just hope and hype.
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