Sydney… the biggest club in the land??

[Fadge]

Collingwood are a huge club everyone knows this. But don't tell us their numbers when they are on top. Tell us the numbers when you are at the bottom. That is what really shows a clubs size.

The thing us, Collingwood rarely have a cycle at the bottom.

And they're not at the bottom for long enough to materially impact their membership numbers, attendances and TV viewers.

The longest period they've ever had between Grand Final appearances is 11 years - between 1991 and 2001 - they don't have decades of celler-dwelling like the other supposed historical 'Big 4' clubs.

That's what makes them a Powerhouse.

 

[doofdoof]

Collingwood are a huge club everyone knows this. But don't tell us their numbers when they are on top. Tell us the numbers when you are at the bottom. That is what really shows a clubs size.

1. That's not the false assertion I was responding to. The 747 suggested that they got bigger crowds because of they were playing teams with more supporters at better times. Clearly, getting huge crowds against Freo, Port, Adelaide, Sydney and GWS in Melbourne disproves that.

2. Collingwood are still the biggest drawing team even when they're out of the finals or down the bottom of the ladder. See 2005 when they lead the league in attendance even though they finished second last.

In the last 24 years. Collingwood has had the #1 attendance in 17 years and the second most in 5 years, never falling lower than #3 (excluding one COVID year when Victoria was locked down and they were still #4). That includes eight ladder finishes between 11th and 17th.

Can we now agree that both these measures show how big Collingwood is? Any other way you want to try and qualify it?

 

[doofdoof]

The thing us, Collingwood rarely have a cycle at the bottom.

And they're not at the bottom for long enough to materially impact their membership numbers, attendances and TV viewers.

The longest period they've ever had between Grand Final appearances is 11 years - between 1991 and 2001 - they don't have decades of celler-dwelling like the other supposed historical 'Big 4' clubs.

That's what makes them a Powerhouse.

Even when we are down the bottom our supporters still turn up year in, year out.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

1. That's not the false assertion I was responding to. The 747 suggested that they got bigger crowds because of they were playing teams with more supporters at better times. Clearly, getting huge crowds against Freo, Port, Adelaide, Sydney and GWS in Melbourne disproves that.

2. Collingwood are still the biggest drawing team even when they're out of the finals or down the bottom of the ladder. See 2005 when they lead the league in attendance even though they finished second last.

In the last 24 years. Collingwood has had the #1 attendance in 17 years and the second most in 5 years, never falling lower than #3 (excluding one COVID year when Victoria was locked down and they were still #4). That includes eight ladder finishes between 11th and 17th.

Can we now agree that both these measures show how big Collingwood is? Any other way you want to try and qualify it?

No one is arguing they are a huge club but even you have to admit if you are granted event day games as Collingwood are locked into every year then your crowds are swelled by neutral numbers. For example when you play Essendong twince every year the real crowd is the second game when its just collingwood v Essendon. The Anzac day game has now become like a GF type day where it is very much an event day. people travel from all over the country go to witness the minutes silence and the anzac celebration at that footy game. Those neutrals don't go to the second Pies V bombers match and hence the crowd is generally 20-30k lighter.
Kings birthday game is another one. 90% of the league don't get given those free leg ups for not only inflating crowd numbers but also FTA exposure. Add to that they don't play games at smaller venue's and these provide the huge numbers we see.
We both know why it happens but it still is a reality that provides possibly a false set of numbers that no other club can achieve because they are not granted those opportunities.
That The Eagles do what they do with no Leg up at all, the worst TV time slots, virtually no Nationwide FTA speaks volumes just how big they are.

None of this is to say the Pies would not be number one in attendance and no0ne of this is a knock on the pies. Just simply some realities of a league that operates openly on a fixture that is so vastly different for each and every club. Is there another comp in the world that does this? Not sure.

 

[dave10]

1. That's not the false assertion I was responding to. The 747 suggested that they got bigger crowds because of they were playing teams with more supporters at better times. Clearly, getting huge crowds against Freo, Port, Adelaide, Sydney and GWS in Melbourne disproves that.

2. Collingwood are still the biggest drawing team even when they're out of the finals or down the bottom of the ladder. See 2005 when they lead the league in attendance even though they finished second last.

In the last 24 years. Collingwood has had the #1 attendance in 17 years and the second most in 5 years, never falling lower than #3 (excluding one COVID year when Victoria was locked down and they were still #4). That includes eight ladder finishes between 11th and 17th.

Can we now agree that both these measures show how big Collingwood is? Any other way you want to try and qualify it?

Collingwood and Richmond are the only two big Vic clubs playing majority of home games at MCG. How can Essendon or Carlton surpass Collingwood’s aggregate, even in Collingwood’s really poor years if they play 3-4 more home games at Marvel?

 

[dave10]

Even when we are down the bottom our supporters still turn up year in, year out.

There were home games at the G between 2015-7 that only drew 20-28K. Collingwood haven’t experienced the doldrums like Richmond, Carlton and Essendon. I mean consecutive years (10-15 years running) in the bottom eight, bottom four. If they did, corresponding with strong years of the other three clubs, they wouldn’t lead the attendance aggregates.

Not arguing Collingwood aren’t biggest, they are. Point is, playing 14 games at the MCG, more than the other big clubs means it will almost always lead attendance aggregates. Thats why reviewing attendance aggregates in absolute terms is largely flawed. West Coast, who fill a 60,000 seater most weeks in decent years would lay claim to the best attended club, if capacity wasn’t constrained. It’s not clear cut.

 

[dave10]

No one is arguing they are a huge club but even you have to admit if you are granted event day games as Collingwood are locked into every year then your crowds are swelled by neutral numbers. For example when you play Essendong twince every year the real crowd is the second game when its just collingwood v Essendon. The Anzac day game has now become like a GF type day where it is very much an event day. people travel from all over the country go to witness the minutes silence and the anzac celebration at that footy game. Those neutrals don't go to the second Pies V bombers match and hence the crowd is generally 20-30k lighter.
Kings birthday game is another one. 90% of the league don't get given those free leg ups for not only inflating crowd numbers but also FTA exposure. Add to that they don't play games at smaller venue's and these provide the huge numbers we see.
We both know why it happens but it still is a reality that provides possibly a false set of numbers that no other club can achieve because they are not granted those opportunities.
That The Eagles do what they do with no Leg up at all, the worst TV time slots, virtually no Nationwide FTA speaks volumes just how big they are.

None of this is to say the Pies would not be number one in attendance and no0ne of this is a knock on the pies. Just simply some realities of a league that operates openly on a fixture that is so vastly different for each and every club. Is there another comp in the world that does this? Not sure.

Agree entirely. West Coast rightly would argue it draws as well as Collingwood at home. Look at their home average the last 2 years. Unparalleled.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Collingwood and Richmond are the only two big Vic clubs playing majority of home games at MCG. How can Essendon or Carlton surpass Collingwood’s aggregate, even in Collingwood’s really poor years if they play 3-4 more home games at Marvel?

Exactly and this is why if you run around saying we draw the most fans to games and that means we are the biggest club then it's simply false. It's only real if every other club gets identical fixturing and timeslots.
And again this is not a knock on the pies. With the huge leg up the AFL gifts them yearly it would be an embarrassment to be honest if they did not draw the most fans through the gate.

 

[Colonial]

Agree entirely. West Coast rightly would argue it draws as well as Collingwood at home. Look at their home average the last 2 years. Unparalleled.

Done without the majority being derby’s probably as well.

 

[Fadge]

Exactly and this is why if you run around saying we draw the most fans to games and that means we are the biggest club then it's simply false. It's only real if every other club gets identical fixturing and timeslots.
And again this is not a knock on the pies. With the huge leg up the AFL gifts them yearly it would be an embarrassment to be honest if they did not draw the most fans through the gate.

Chicken or the egg?

Pies get prime fixturing because we're guaranteed performers and crowd pullers, or Pies are guaranteed performers and crowd pullers therefore we get prime fixtures?

Either way, it says a lot about a club's ability to maintain it's powerhouse status for over 120 years whilst other clubs have come and gone as powerhouses - the rewards come with that.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Chicken or the egg?

Pies get prime fixturing because we're guaranteed performers and crowd pullers, or Pies are guaranteed performers and crowd pullers therefore we get prime fixtures?

Either way, it says a lot about a club's ability to maintain it's powerhouse status for over 120 years whilst other clubs have come and gone as powerhouses - the rewards come with that.

Yes but should it be like that? Not hard at all to maintain status for Collingwood. How has it been hard for them and what battles have they faced to be able to maintain it?
The League should not be about rewards, and if it is then it should be given to the premier team each and every year. There choice of top 5 time slots ion the league the following year. and who they want to play. Now that would be a reward. A Gift is a gift, a reward you earn. You have earned it for the coming season.

 

[dave10]

Done without the majority being derby’s probably as well.

Correct. In a single state, they’re possibly biggest. However, other clubs like Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton and even Hawthorn have broader support across the nation.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Correct. In a single state, they’re possibly biggest. However, other clubs like Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton and even Hawthorn have broader support across the nation.

That could be true, but you don't really know. You are just guessing. This is the problem, no one actually knows.

 

[dave10]

That could be true, but you don't really know. You are just guessing. This is the problem, no one actually knows.

True. I’m going off qualitative evidence of the number of fans these clubs get interstate. Regarding WA, I can confirm Essendon has the highest membership behind the two home clubs. That’s the only evidence I can share!

 

[greatwhiteshark]

True. I’m going off qualitative evidence of the number of fans these clubs get interstate. Regarding WA, I can confirm Essendon has the highest membership behind the two home clubs. That’s the only evidence I can share!

May I ask mate how you know that? I certainly don't know. But over the years the clubs who have always been popular here are the bombers, the Blues, and the cats. funny enough the Kangaroos have a huge support in Perth, goes back to the Glendenning, Krakouer brother days.
Without knowing I would say the Roos based on what i have seen at games over the years. But like I said I don't actually know.

And then I watch the Eagles as they travel the country and they always seem to have a healthy support network everywhere they go.

Good for the game if all clubs have good visible crowds at all venues.

 

[doofdoof]

Yes but should it be like that? Not hard at all to maintain status for Collingwood. How has it been hard for them and what battles have they faced to be able to maintain it?
The League should not be about rewards, and if it is then it should be given to the premier team each and every year. There choice of top 5 time slots ion the league the following year. and who they want to play. Now that would be a reward. A Gift is a gift, a reward you earn. You have earned it for the coming season.

Maybe it shouldn't, but the reason we play so many games at the MCG, in great time slots is because every other Victorian-based club wants to play us their as their home game, in prime time, so they get the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

I'm not sure what you think we should do. Play Sunday twilight games against NM and interstate clubs every week? We'd still get big crowds, but the AFL and other clubs would lose money, mainly because the TV rights would be reduced.

 

[Fadge]

Yes but should it be like that? Not hard at all to maintain status for Collingwood. How has it been hard for them and what battles have they faced to be able to maintain it?

How hard is it to be a contender more often than not, and play in one third of all Grand Finals contested?

Ask Richmond, who won two finals in 34 years between 1983 and 2016;

Ask Carlton, who last year played in their first Preliminary Final in over two decades, 'winning' five wooden spoons in the meantime;

Ask Essendon, who haven't won a final for two decades.

If Collingwood's on-field performance reduced to those depths, I daresay the AFL would think twice about handing us the prime time matches in their fixture.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Maybe it shouldn't, but the reason we play so many games at the MCG, in great time slots is because every other Victorian-based club wants to play us their as their home game, in prime time, so they get the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

I'm not sure what you think we should do. Play Sunday twilight games against NM and interstate clubs every week? We'd still get big crowds, but the AFL and other clubs would lose money, mainly because the TV rights would be reduced.

I am not asking you to do anything, it's not Collingwoods fault.
The AFL should fixture you to play Geelong at geelong, Hawthorn in Tasmania etc.
The TV rights would not be reduced because they would replace the Collingwood game with an Essendon, Carlton or Richmond game. Yes play your fair share of Sunday twighlight games, why would it matter when you play if you are as big as you say you are?
The AFL should be playing on it that Collingwood get a full house no matter when they play so this is the opportunity to grow the smaller clubs in the better timeslots. The Pies don't need those slots do they?

 

[Fadge]

I am not asking you to do anything, it's not Collingwoods fault.
The AFL should fixture you to play Geelong at geelong, Hawthorn in Tasmania etc.
The TV rights would not be reduced because they would replace the Collingwood game with an Essendon, Carlton or Richmond game. Yes play your fair share of Sunday twighlight games, why would it matter when you play if you are as big as you say you are?
The AFL should be playing on it that Collingwood get a full house no matter when they play so this is the opportunity to grow the smaller clubs in the better timeslots. The Pies don't need those slots do they?

Really?

You reckon Foxtel and Channel 7 wouldn't have an issue with Collingwood being regularly scheduled for Sunday twilight games instead of prime time on Friday night or Saturday nights because 'the crowds will come anyway'?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Really?

You reckon Foxtel and Channel 7 wouldn't have an issue with Collingwood being regularly scheduled for Sunday twilight games instead of prime time on Friday night or Saturday nights because 'the crowds will come anyway'?

This is the problem, this blatant gifting of timeslots has gone on for so long now that supporters now think they should get those timeslots.

Why would Collingwood V Essendon not rate on Sunday twighlight? two huge clubs? Please tell me why?

 

[LoungeLizard]

I am not asking you to do anything, it's not Collingwoods fault.
The AFL should fixture you to play Geelong at geelong, Hawthorn in Tasmania etc.
The TV rights would not be reduced because they would replace the Collingwood game with an Essendon, Carlton or Richmond game. Yes play your fair share of Sunday twighlight games, why would it matter when you play if you are as big as you say you are?
The AFL should be playing on it that Collingwood get a full house no matter when they play so this is the opportunity to grow the smaller clubs in the better timeslots. The Pies don't need those slots do they?

You want Collingwood to play more Sunday games?
How many?
More than 7?
We played 7 Sunday games last year.

Why should Collingwood leave those slots for others, if they want them, then they can show they deserve them, it's not our job to gift other teams, like we did Melbourne for years and Sydney.
Go have a look at attendances from the VFL days, when Collingwoods home ground was Vic Park, they still had the highest attendances, they need to play at the MCG because Vic Park is too small now.

 

[doofdoof]

This is the problem, this blatant gifting of timeslots has gone on for so long now that supporters now think they should get those timeslots.

Why would Collingwood V Essendon not rate on Sunday twighlight? two huge clubs? Please tell me why?

It's not really gifting. The AFL wants to maximise the money they receive from TV rights. The choose to play Collingwood in the night timeslots because they without a shadow of a doubt have the highest rating potential.

I love twilight and day games because I have young kids. The night games suck. It's all about the AFL trying to make money, for all of the clubs benefits, by using Collingwood. They're not trying to gift anything.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

You want Collingwood to play more Sunday games?
How many?
More than 7?
We played 7 Sunday games last year.

Why should Collingwood leave those slots for others, if they want them, then they can show they deserve them, it's not our job to gift other teams, like we did Melbourne for years and Sydney.
Go have a look at attendances from the VFL days, when Collingwoods home ground was Vic Park, they still had the highest attendances, they need to play at the MCG because Vic Park is too small now.

It's not collingwoods decision when or where they play it should be the AFL's decision.
And I didn't say play any more games on any days I pointed out that you are so big and powerfull it should not matter when you play.

Do you think it matters when or where you play? Would it bother you playing Geelong at Geelong? Hawthorn in Tassie? and if it does bother you why does it?

 

[Fadge]

Why would Collingwood V Essendon not rate on Sunday twighlight? two huge clubs? Please tell me why?

Suspect it would be the difference between getting 700,000 viewers, and 400,000 viewers.

I think the bean counters would have an issue with that.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It's not really gifting. The AFL wants to maximise the money they receive from TV rights. The choose to play Collingwood in the night timeslots because they without a shadow of a doubt have the highest rating potential.

I love twilight and day games because I have young kids. The night games suck. It's all about the AFL trying to make money, for all of the clubs benefits, by using Collingwood. They're not trying to gift anything.

Yes we know why they do it, but they absolutely no proof what so ever fixturing differently would bring in less money.