R13: Port v Richmond review

[Enviable Tradition]

In no way did he just say that Tredrea doesnt verbally encourage his teammates enough. He was a hell of a lot harsher than that. Numerous times he stated that:
1) At crucial times, Tredrea doesnt do anything to push his team over the line
2) The players dont play for him like they played for Primus
3) That Tredrea doesnt bring his teammates into the game.

He was trying to be controversial but just came across as a right ____er.

He mentioned numerous times that the players played for Primus because they knew that at a crucial time he would demand the ball, bust through a pack and get it forward. He said that with Primus, he would involve his teammates a lot and get them involved in the game.

What he failed to mention was that Primus would get players into the game because the guy couldnt kick to save himself so always looked for the handball all time. He failed to mention that Primus' finals record with us was average at best. He failed to mention that under Primus' leadership, we faltered at the most crucial times in the season three times.

To say that Tredrea doesnt bring teammates into the game is just ____ing ridiculous. He led goal assists for 3 seasons and yesterday kicked 2 goals and had 3 goal assists.

Sure Tredreas verbal enoucragement and probably body language as well could easily be improved and as Captain hes probably got to do more than that. And I would agree that Primus was a better Captain than Tredrea, but Francous main points yesterday were ridiculous and smacked of disrespect.

Yeah that was exactly my take on it Macca.

 

[wallumi]

I actually thought Peter wasnt too bad. Not as many clangers as usual and only got caught once.

I agree, and have done throughout this spate of recently fashionable Senior Burger bashing.

Not long after he was caught badly he made another play where he ran forward, reviewed his first decision, ran futher forward and then delivered long and accurately to half forward.
The difference? He was sheparded in the second example. And someone presented up forward.

If he had been sheparded the first time, or even maybe advised of the chaser, he may well not have been caught as coldly as he was.

I'm not saying he is without imperfection but I think a lot of his notable 'errors' stem from him trying to be creative without any reliably adequate support.

Maybe the very same dynamic has worn Shaun down to a level of mental surrender. Other quality mids get a lot of blocking help from an intelligently structured midfield. Look at how Judd has recently begun to do so much better as the midfield around him has gelled into a cohesively balanced and functional unit. It's every man for themselves in the Power midfield. It totally and visibly sucks. Clearances come Port's direction out of individual skill and/or cumulative bumble. Cogent and securely structured progression from inside ball-winner to outside carrier at stoppages is painfully rare, as it is also painfully repetitious and productive in the gameplay of opponents.

It is arguable that Peter has always shown more gut-level determination than Shaun and can thus better persevere through repetitive event failure. Perhaps Peter's real fault is that he continues trying to execute the most creative option even though there is no rational probability of support and thus success.

It is very possible that the real fault lies with Choco telling and encouraging Peter to play as he does but not providing the surrounding conditions that will support it.

Interesting that Peter did so well in the Dream Team. Maybe his teammates that night brought some basic discipline to the game with them. It might be an interesting game to review from that perspective.

Similarly with the quality of his (and others) game last year. Pretty much the same personnel and basic skill levels were on the field last year when Peter (and others) looked very good. However being effective, particularly in the role Peter is being asked to play, requires a threshold of team function which is simply not present ATM.

Given the proven talent on the field, this lack is primarily a leadership issue. One which begins and ultimately ends with the coach - either in kudos, pressure for reform, or dismissal. It certainly isn't something Peter can be significantly blamed for causing or not fixing. Veteran shouldn't be expected to perform individual super-hero roles on a consistent basis.

If club management will not prioritise the effective address of this structural issue, maybe Peter should seriously consider a transfer to another club where an effective team structure and the consistent coaching of that structure might extend his career for a a few extra seasons.

There was one moment in the last where he refused to take possession of the ball and he shirked the contest...which everyone on the members wing in front of me groaned and gave him plenty for his 'effort', but he came off the ground straight after under a bit of pain so im half willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that.

If I were Peter's age, with his hamstring experience, I would also shirk an incidental contest if my hammy had just gone twang. Especially if I knew, consciously or unconsciously, that the coach had neither idea nor likelihood of capitalising on my supreme sacrifice.

 

[Portia]

While a lot of that about Peter is true, it is noticeable that its not only Peter who doesn't get shepherded for. My great frustration from last year was that it was just about ONLY Peter who got set up to clear the ball by teammates.

Choco making Peter the dedicated Heuskesesque loose ball receiver in defence is a key cog in what has made the current side as shit as it is.

 

[Sandola]

It's every man for themselves in the Power midfield. It totally and visibly sucks.

Terrific post, wallumi. You've done a good analysis of the lack of teamwork that's been so evident in our games this year, and a made a convincing argument for what's "wrong" with the Burgoynes (and probably a few others who aren't getting the support they need).

 

[wallumi]

While a lot of that about Peter is true, it is noticeable that its not only Peter who doesn't get shepherded for. My great frustration from last year was that it was just about ONLY Peter who got set up to clear the ball by teammates.

Choco making Peter the dedicated Heuskesesque loose ball receiver in defence is a key cog in what has made the current side as shit as it is.

I've got no reason to disagree with any of that. It remains the case though that is it Choco's role and responsiblity to fix it. Until he does Peter (and others) will continue to look like the problem when they are only the hapless (and publicly embarassed) expression of it.

Additionally, if they are aware of the contradictions and deficiencies at work in their instructed gameplay, that would be cumulatively morale sapping. If so, things will only get worse.

As a comparative measure, I wonder how Peter would go playing Mcleod's role at the Crows? Imagine if had the support to know where everyone was around him and that there would be someone ahead to aim at when he looked up?

Maybe this offers a clue as to why Choco so appreciates magical player skills. Possibly he understands at some gut level that it is the only thing that might augment his strategic autism into a winning product. Maybe just like his playing skills, his coaching is hard-working, spirited and tenacious but not inherently brilliant.

Or maybe he knows it is sublimely esoteric and incommunicable to sub-genius players.
Like, you know, you just know it - or you don't. Why don't they just get it? .
It must be them.

 

[Revolution]

Did anyone else hear Francou's criticism of Tredders leadership on radio? I thought it was a bit of a cheap shot and unwarranted, is there some bad blood between those two?

Edit: Nevermind, already read follow ups to the thread...

 

[portentous]

Someone should ring up and tell Josh Francou to bring his footy boots to the next game he's at and show some of these blokes how to get a hard ball and put their body on the line for the side.

Josh wasn't always pretty,but hell you always knew that he'd give 100% for the side, regardless of his own safety or the state of the match.

 

[Forzaport]

Interesting that Peter did so well in the Dream Team. Maybe his teammates that night brought some basic discipline to the game with them. It might be an interesting game to review from that perspective.

Excellent post. Totally agree. The players aren't supporting each other as much as they should.

The only thing i'd like to add is that in the dream team game, there wasn't the same level of pressure and players were allowed to play as they pleased. Peter showed us that he knows how to find the ball and more importantly he knows where to kick it.

I thought he was going ok on saturday, so it would be typical that a player who is starting to show some form to get injured.

Getting back to players supporting one another, i saw a great example of it on saturday. Lade got the ball on the wing and was running up the ground. He was being chased down by a richmond player and i reckon pearce ran a good 60-70m to get to lade to provide the shepard for him. As much as i'm happy to see that, i often ask myself why it doesn't happen more often!

 

[wallumi]

Getting back to players supporting one another, i saw a great example of it on saturday. Lade got the ball on the wing and was running up the ground. He was being chased down by a richmond player and i reckon pearce ran a good 60-70m to get to lade to provide the shepard for him. As much as i'm happy to see that, i often ask myself why it doesn't happen more often!

A basic and essential game element applied with too little time left. This, and the underlying desire and desperation to execute it, was generally applied in the last 10 minutes. Another 2-5 minutes and we would have won that game. Why though did we only start doing all the right things when it was too late?

That we did proves the team both knows how to and is capable of it. That we waited until so critically and, as it proved to be, hopelessly late into the game and the season is what defies understanding.

 

[PowerKat]

The grand irony of all this is that we lack players with hearts bigger than their skills, players who go hard at the ball and the man, players who don't look that talented but get the job done. Players like Choco was!

Choco has revealed much about his personality with the players he has chosen in drafts, trades and on Saturdays. He likes and falls in love with players that aren't like he was. Lonie. Pearce. Boak. Krakouer. Burgoynes. Westhoff. Motlop.

We let Guerra and Gilham and Patfull and Pickett go. Thurstans is still with us.

Maybe (either consciously or subsonciously), Choco doesn't want to coach like his father, and/or he wants a gameplan he could not have executed, and to pick players that can do everything he couldn't??

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Maybe (either consciously or subsonciously), Choco doesn't want to coach like his father, and/or he wants a gameplan he could not have executed, and to pick players that can do everything he couldn't??

I have often wondered this. Perhaps it is because people always want what they dont have, i.e. curly haired girls always want to be straight and vice versa. Is chocco living out his dream of being an outside, glamor finisher vicariously through the team?

 

[TheFansOwnTheGame]

In no way did he just say that Tredrea doesnt verbally encourage his teammates enough. He was a hell of a lot harsher than that. Numerous times he stated that:
1) At crucial times, Tredrea doesnt do anything to push his team over the line
2) The players dont play for him like they played for Primus
3) That Tredrea doesnt bring his teammates into the game.

He was trying to be controversial but just came across as a right ____er.

He mentioned numerous times that the players played for Primus because they knew that at a crucial time he would demand the ball, bust through a pack and get it forward. He said that with Primus, he would involve his teammates a lot and get them involved in the game.

What he failed to mention was that Primus would get players into the game because the guy couldnt kick to save himself so always looked for the handball all time. He failed to mention that Primus' finals record with us was average at best. He failed to mention that under Primus' leadership, we faltered at the most crucial times in the season three times.

To say that Tredrea doesnt bring teammates into the game is just ____ing ridiculous. He led goal assists for 3 seasons and yesterday kicked 2 goals and had 3 goal assists.

Sure Tredreas verbal enoucragement and probably body language as well could easily be improved and as Captain hes probably got to do more than that. And I would agree that Primus was a better Captain than Tredrea, but Francous main points yesterday were ridiculous and smacked of disrespect.

So are you Saying Tredders is above Criticism ???

If Not how could the criticism be given in way that was respectful. Francou highlighted all Tredders Strengths

and as for

1) At crucial times, Tredrea doesn't do anything to push his team over the line
2) The players don't play for him like they played for Primus
3) That Tredrea doesn't bring his teammates into the game.

I would say all that is correct.

With point number 1 of course tredders wins us games. But when was the last time he stood up in the crucial closing stages and dragged the team across the line like a Judd,Voss, or Hird. He just does not do it.

This does not mean he is not the Clubs greatest player since joining the AFL. HE IS!

I believe Tredders is A captain who leads by example as Francou acknowledged. But the current playing Group around him need more than that.

When we won the Flag and Tredders was captain look who we had in the team, Hardwick, James, Picket, Carr. These guys were self starters.

This Group is not!

They need to be inspired... That takes us to a whole other topic of why their not self starters.

 

[PJ Power]

I didn't object to Francou's criticism of Tredders as much as others obviously have.

I struggle to recall more than 5 games when Tredrea stood up and clearly lifted the side deep into a match. Historically, his last quarter performances have not been the sort to turn the team around when our backs have been up against it.

Occasions when I clearly recall Tredrea playing a major role deep in matches when his teammates needed him:
1. WCE final last year
2. Last quarter heroics in loss to Bulldogs at TD last year
3. Showdown loss early 2006
4. Finals win against Essendon 2003

Even take the Prelim win over the Saints in 2004. Tredders was very good early in that game, but had preciousl little influence on proceedings in that all important last quarter, when Riewoldt and Wanganeen stamped their class on the match.

Maybe it's being far too harsh and not respectful of the wonderful career he's had. I'm not saying he hasn't been instrumental in many of our great wins. Rather, his ability to impose himself on a match when we have lost momentum, has not been his strongest quality. This year's fading away after halftime is not without precedent for Wazza.

He's still a champ. But does his captaincy inspire me? No.

 

[Hodges 153!]

Kudos to the woman that phoned. I think alison was her name, put it right to francou and made some very good points. Francou should be ashamed of himself for he said about tredders. Can't argue that there are leadership issues at the club, but fair go! Tredders is a champion and played his heart out today.

Hehehe...

That was Alison 'Hodges', my wife.

You may have heard little Hodgey throwing a sad in the background after having a stack....

Did Josh play under Warren's captaincy? If so, is his criticism "calling it as he sees it" as a commentator, or an opinion he carried while playing?

And if it is not good enough for Tredders to be a captain that leads by example, what was Josh's opinion of Gavin Wanganeen as captain?

 

[bringbackbucky]

Alastair Lynch won 3 premierships sitting in the goalsquare. Just a thought.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Just on the Peter Burgoyne debate, Choco has found out the same thing as Craig is finding out with McLeod. Opposition coaches will not allow free reign to these players indefinitely. Now Choco should have worked that out fairly quickly seeing as he was one of the first coaches to tag HBFs. Even Macca is struggling of late, and I suspect in both their cases, Burgs and Macca might have lost that step of mercurial pace that could extricate them from difficulty. Add that to being sat on by one or even two players at times, and you see a diminished influence. Time for a new trick or better support acts.

Rooch provided a relatively in-depth stat analysis of P Burg's game:

Match time: 88 minutes (3 mins w/o an opponent)
Disposals: 14 (10 in defensive half)
Distance from kicks: 490m (only 60% retained)
Distance run (carried): 457m (only 65% retained)
Possessions: 16 (13 uncontested, 11 handball receives)
Tackles: 1
Inside 50: 2 (one for Motlop goal; one turnover)

 

[Forzaport]

Hehehe...

That was Alison 'Hodges', my wife.

You may have heard little Hodgey throwing a sad in the background after having a stack....

Did Josh play under Warren's captaincy? If so, is his criticism "calling it as he sees it" as a commentator, or an opinion he carried while playing?

And if it is not good enough for Tredders to be a captain that leads by example, what was Josh's opinion of Gavin Wanganeen as captain?

You married a great woman!

 

[Macca19]

I didn't object to Francou's criticism of Tredders as much as others obviously have.

I struggle to recall more than 5 games when Tredrea stood up and clearly lifted the side deep into a match. Historically, his last quarter performances have not been the sort to turn the team around when our backs have been up against it.

Occasions when I clearly recall Tredrea playing a major role deep in matches when his teammates needed him:
1. WCE final last year
2. Last quarter heroics in loss to Bulldogs at TD last year
3. Showdown loss early 2006
4. Finals win against Essendon 2003

I can remember 3-4 games that we ended up losing that Tredrea gave us half a chance of winning. The Geelong (Ben Graham goal) loss in 03, a loss to Essendon and Melbourne in Melbourne as well.

I agree that Tredders hasnt been a player to win us games in the last quarter, thats because most of the games we won have been on the back of Tredreas work in the first three quarters and the game hasnt had to be won in the last.

I cant recall too many games that Primus won for us in last quarters either.

 

[PJ Power]

I can remember 3-4 games that we ended up losing that Tredrea gave us half a chance of winning. The Geelong (Ben Graham goal) loss in 03, a loss to Essendon and Melbourne in Melbourne as well.

I agree that Tredders hasnt been a player to win us games in the last quarter, thats because most of the games we won have been on the back of Tredreas work in the first three quarters and the game hasnt had to be won in the last.

I cant recall too many games that Primus won for us in last quarters either.

That's fair Macca - and I agree wholeheartedly, that when you win 63% or whatever it is of matches, finding examples of matches you've lost where an individual player has stood up is often difficult.

The query I have over Tredders which in truth has been amplified this year, is over his "presence" late in matches.

I'd be interested in seeing career-long stats - not that they exist - as to his breakdown of goals in the respective quarters.

This has obviously been an issue this year, given the fact that at least 3/4 of his goals have come in the first halves (maybe more). However, I don't think it's new to his game.

 

[truebelievers]

Boak was a bit too timid when he had to go in hard.

I actually thought Peter wasnt too bad. Not as many clangers as usual and only got caught once.

There was one moment in the last where he refused to take possession of the ball and he shirked the contest...which everyone on the members wing in front of me groaned and gave him plenty for his 'effort', but he came off the ground straight after under a bit of pain so im half willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that.

Yes I was one of those screaming at Peter to put an effort in. He was first to the ball but let it bounce in front of him and let his opponent take possession. I reckon there were only a couple of times that players actually ran at the ball with any sort of aggression to take possession. I felt terrible afterwards though as Peter could have jagged his hamstring - must admit I was wondering if it was just his pride that was hurt but it turned out no.

 

[Hodges 153!]

You married a great woman!

Another caller just raised the same topic.

She's pretty chuffed Cornsey just agreed with her and said her call had been "very good"!

 

[Toots Hibbert]

Not a yelp from the supporters when Choco took the huddle to the eastern side at three quarter time. That was the official supporters verdict on a performance that lacked any credibility until Richmond incompetence gave the side a sniff of victory in the last quarter.

I saw the players running and chasing throughout the game but the big giveaway was the numerous times when a Port player forced an error there was always an extra Richmond player to pick up the loose ball. The players hearts were not in this and that goes back to the way the side is being coached. There's no escaping from that.

 

[Steve Dore]

Not a yelp from the supporters when Choco took the huddle to the eastern side at three quarter time. .....

I cringed when I saw what Choco was up to. Sadly it has become like so many hackneyed clichés in footy

I saw the players running and chasing throughout the game but the big giveaway was the numerous times when a Port player forced an error there was always an extra Richmond player to pick up the loose ball. ......

One of the many things that annoyed me about the way we played in that game was our persistence with zoning off between two opposition players. The number of times Richmond brought the ball out of the back line easily because we had one player standing half way between two Richmond players yet putting pressure on neither. Often both of the Richmond players got a touch while our player was piggy in the middle.