Ramifications for all Australian Football Leagues

[Genesis67]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

It will create a short term ripple, little more.

The clubs over the long term would simply write into player's contracts that they understand that one of the conditions of employment is that the club works under a salary cap. If they dont, they dont get signed. Fairly simple. Neither the club nor the AFL is obliged to sign a player or accept that player's registration. If they dont play by the rules, they get left out in the cold.

It's not like the Draft, which is arguably Restraint of Trade. It's an economical limitation, the same as applies to companies everywhere, not just AFL clubs. I run a small company. People who become employee's understand that I have an implicit "salary cap" of sorts because we cant afford to pay everyone 150k a year. We're only a small company, we're not BHP Billiton.

 

[Embers]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

Eagles Collingwood and Carlton would be the top 3 teams forever. I wont complain if it happens but I doubt it will.

Based on precedent yes the salary cap is a restraint on trade but other precedent also clearly states the courts will not interfere in sporting governing bodies decisions unless its necessary. Is it really necessary to destroy the salary cap for Money Bill?

 

[passthebottle]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

Then West Coast offer him $3.5m, whatya going to do about that? Not only that they throw the chequebook at Ryder and Riemers.

It wouldn't stop there!!!

Its good to see that even some West Coast and Carlton supporters support the salary cap.

Thats why i hate club soccer cause the same f--cking teams win it year in year out how boring!!

 

[WALL-e]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

There would be about 5-6 powerhouses including my club but I still don't want to see the cap fold.

If anything, I would only like to see a more NBA style free agent system and a draft lottery but removing the salary cap would see dominance by Adelaide, Carlton, Collingwood, West Coast, Sydney and Essendon

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

The abolishment of the Salary Cap would be a disaster, and it might not work out into some teams favour like is thought. You never know the sort of rich backers that might follow clubs, Just cause Essendon is a rich club now doesn't mean that if it went into a free for all they would be a powerhouse as fans ect wouldn't mean jack, all that would matter is who was pouring money into the club. At the moment there is no major advantage to sink money into a club, without a salary cap there would be.

 

[clobba]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

From what I gathered reading all the articles SBW's laywer would only bring the restraint of trade action to the courts if the NRL actually succeeded in stopping him playing in France.

As this seems unlikely to occur at this stage feel free to rage, rail and fume about it ruining our game etc as it always fun

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

We CANNOT have a competition without a salary cap. i don't say that because I follow one of the poorest clubs. I say that because Australia cannot financially afford an EPL. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

You don't preface it with that. no supporter of this sport should be in favour of the removal of the salary cap. it would be the worst thing to happen to the game. anyone who is in favour of it is either clueless or is so short sighted that it beggars belief.

if the draft were to be abolished, the competition would still thrive. The NRL has no draft and is still a fairly even competition with teams requiring to manage their lists to win premiership.

but the removal of the salary cap would blow the competition apart.

It would be a contest between West Coast, Adelaide, Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton, and unfortunately the divide between those 5 and the rest would get bigger and bigger every year. Yeah that's realy great It'd also be the end of at least 4 clubs in the very short term (within 5 years) as well as probably bringing the competition down to around about 8-10 teams by 2020-2030.

It would also lead to the eternal shitfight in regards to player payments and transfer fees and players holding clubs to ransom as some do or attempt to do in European soccer.

As someone suggested, we'd need an FA cup style tournament to keep the interest for the poorer clubs. The problem is that Australian Rules as a sport isn't made for that sort of tournament. FA Cup works in soccer because in soccer a small team can defend like crazy against a big team, then pinch a goal and a victory. In Aussie Rules, the floodgates open all the time.

 

[bOmBeR_BoY1]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

Any sort of salary cap removal would be disasterous for the competition. Clubs will unfortunately fall victim and no doubt be forced to relocate or even fold altogether due to their financial inability to 'purchase' the best players which will inevitably lead to poor onfield performances which we all know has a large impact on membership figures, advertising, sponsorship etc. and leaves clubs in very dicey financial positions. The current system in the AFL is one of the fairest systems in world sport and it creates a much more equal competition with an even chance of success. A change in the rules that would allow wealthier clubs like my own to poach and buy star players from others would ruin the AFL as a competition and force us to watch the same two or three teams year after year win the premiership.

How boring.

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

Its good to see that even some West Coast and Carlton supporters support the salary cap.

as i said above every supporter of this game should be in favour of a salary cap. it is in the best interests of this sport to have a competitive competition where list management, injury management, coaching and player loyalty rewards clubs with premierships.

if james packer took over the west coast and plowed it with money so that we had a team capable of taking on the rest of the competition combined.... well it wouldn't feel that great of a premiership too me.

Every club since the inception of the AFL and the salary cap has had to work like hell to win a premiership. No club has had it easy, and nor should they.

 

[Hawkamania!]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

No salary cap would be a disaster for the AFL. At the moment based on clubs assets, less than half the teams would be able to seriously compete for the premiership. The others would just be making up the numbers.

The other ripple effect would be that some teams wouldn't be able to continue operating with a greatly increased salary. This may kill off a few clubs which will decrease the AFL TV rights earnings, weaken our bargaining power against the mcc and jeopardise our Dockland's requirements.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

don't destroy it completly, introduce the NBA salary cap system.

For every $1 the club is over, you pay 50%

if a club is $2million over, a 1million fine would be quite hefty. stops the teams breaching it, because the more they go over, the bigger the fine, the bigger the fine, lower profits/bigger losses = bankrupcy

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

You don't preface it with that. no supporter of this sport should be in favour of the removal of the salary cap. it would be the worst thing to happen to the game. anyone who is in favour of it is either clueless or is so short sighted that it beggars belief.

if the draft were to be abolished, the competition would still thrive. The NRL has no draft and is still a fairly even competition with teams requiring to manage their lists to win premiership.

but the removal of the salary cap would blow the competition apart.

It would be a contest between West Coast, Adelaide, Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton, and unfortunately the divide between those 5 and the rest would get bigger and bigger every year. Yeah that's realy great It'd also be the end of at least 4 clubs in the very short term (within 5 years) as well as probably bringing the competition down to around about 8-10 teams by 2020-2030.

It would also lead to the eternal shitfight in regards to player payments and transfer fees and players holding clubs to ransom as some do or attempt to do in European soccer.

As someone suggested, we'd need an FA cup style tournament to keep the interest for the poorer clubs. The problem is that Australian Rules as a sport isn't made for that sort of tournament. FA Cup works in soccer because in soccer a small team can defend like crazy against a big team, then pinch a goal and a victory. In Aussie Rules, the floodgates open all the time.

That's the thought that immediately springs to mind, but it might not be the case, just because those teams are the economic powerhouses now doesn't mean they would be without a cap. You can never be too sure which rich backers might pour their money into a club if the salary cap was abolished. Right now there isn't much reason to because the salary cap restrict how powerful a team can be on-field to a certain level of equity over a period of time. off-field moneys might only effect a team by 5-10% on-field without a salary cap you could effect change directly on-field.

 

[Hoops]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

Last year the AFL payed more money to clubs than what the clubs payed to the players.

So have the players become employees of the AFL being payed a certain amount at the discretion of the clubs

 

[legend166]

If you wanted to draw a long bow this is what could happen

SBW argues and wins a case saying the NRL salary cap is a restraint of trade - fair enough you'd think as it limits what he can earn.

NRL players all start pushing for pay rises in the new world of cap free NRL

A handfull of NRL clubs, 5 or 6 maybe, decide they can't survive in the new environment and merge or fold - the others and the newly merged entities go to war with each other with high profile backers to sign the best available players - players wages sky rocket to levels higher than during Super League (remember the problems BIG $'s caused back then)

What would happen to the AFL? Would players start thinking about playing league?? unlikely as it's a very different skill set - would kids/parents start thinking about their kids playing league where the BIG money is??? Has to be a possibility doesn't it? Joe is a champion athlete, could play any sport he wanted to - why would he pay AFL where he wages are capped???

Cap goes, clubs fold etc etc etc

A very long shot scenario but ......

The problem is, where is that money to pay the players going to come from? Sure, you say cashed up benefactors. But these people didn't get rich throwing money away. The NRL can barely make enough cash to cover the salary cap it's got now. If they have to start paying players over a million dollars, they simply won't survive. The revenue stream is just not there.

It works in the EPL because the money is there. Manchester United makes something like 50 million pounds in profit a year.

If the salary cap goes, Rugby League will die a painful death.

 

[campbell]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

Interesting times ahead.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/s...australian-football-20080729-3mg1.html?page=2

I can't see players being happy with a code, saying they will jail a player.

Clubs can and often screw players 6 ways to China in salary discussions, due to the salary cap restrictions. We often see clubs having a real squeeze at times, and some players do miss out due to this.

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

That's the thought that immediately springs to mind, but it might not be the case, just because those teams are the economic powerhouses now doesn't mean they would be without a cap. You can never be too sure which rich backers might pour their money into a club if the salary cap was abolished. Right now there isn't much reason to because the salary cap restrict how powerful a team can be on-field to a certain level of equity over a period of time. off-field moneys might only effect a team by 5-10% on-field without a salary cap you could effect change directly on-field.

yeah that is true, but who supports who and who is willing put what money into which clubs is a total unknown, so for the time being it's probably just easiest to say those 5 would be the leading clubs....

once the money came pouring in though teams would fairly quickly settle into positions and i wouldn't think there'd be too much movement, unless an abramovich style takeover came to a club.

either way i don't want to even consider it. it would make the competition as boring as shit, and i dare suggest would do irreprable damage to the AFL as people would vote with their feet.

People might say the EPL doesn't suffer to much from having a predicatable competition, but the Australian sports followers psychie is different to the Europeans IMO. Australians love a battle, we love that you've always got a chance, that you've always got to work for your wins, and that you're always on an even footing with the other team. Take that away and the huge crowds and tv $$ we see now could be a thing of the past.

 

[campbell]

The opinion pdf Van Queen linked to on the first page is worth a read, or at least skimming through. It basically says that reasonable restraint of trade is allowed in Australia but it must be reasonable for the two parties (the AFL and the player) and reasonable to the public. Now it's pretty easy to argue that salary caps are reasonable for the AFL and the public since they help the evenness and on-going survivability of the compeition, but is it reasonable with reference to the interests of the players? He doesn't clearly state an opinion. But seems to imply that you could atleast mount a defence.

On the other hand he doesn't seem to think that the draft would stand up, particularly if it was challenged in conjunction with the salary cap (basically, if the salary cap ensures competition eveness, then why do we need the draft?).

Agreed. Players do get screwed in contract negotiations, every year, a club has a salary cap squeeze happening. Thsis means that players are the ones losing the wages as a direct result of the cap.

 

[campbell]

The problem is, where is that money to pay the players going to come from? Sure, you say cashed up benefactors. But these people didn't get rich throwing money away. The NRL can barely make enough cash to cover the salary cap it's got now. If they have to start paying players over a million dollars, they simply won't survive. The revenue stream is just not there.

It works in the EPL because the money is there. Manchester United makes something like 50 million pounds in profit a year.

If the salary cap goes, Rugby League will die a painful death.

As will a few AFL clubs.

 

[WALL-e]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

don't destroy it completly, introduce the NBA salary cap system.

For every $1 the club is over, you pay 50%

if a club is $2million over, a 1million fine would be quite hefty. stops the teams breaching it, because the more they go over, the bigger the fine, the bigger the fine, lower profits/bigger losses = bankrupcy

You pay $1 for $1 once your over the luxuory tax levels too, about 10 Mil over the cap, cap ir roughly 60 Mil.

NBA still has a salary cap but it's a soft cap, meaning teams can go over the cap to resign their own players, go over when signing using any of the yearly exemptions (Mid level exemption and lower level exemption) or go over when signing players to the minimum salaries (vet min etc).

 

[legend166]

As will a few AFL clubs.

Absolutely.

 

[campbell]

Re: Sonny Bill Williams vs. The Salary Cap

Its getting real ugly real quick.
To threaten to jail a player is as ugly as you can get.
Then to try to get the public on side, against ALL players of all codes, is not a good thing for ANY player.

Any AFL player who has had a contract reduction lately due to their club having salary cap pressure, would not be thinking the same as the clubs on this. Nor should they really. Imagine if it was you in your job, they cut your next contract, becuase of salary cap pressures.

 

[Wallaby]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

The AFL can just put in their 'rules' that any club in the competition has to abide by a salary cap - you don't want to, fine, go and find another comp. Imagine Collingwood in the DVFL.
I think that it's pretty much agreed here that the salary cap is a good thing - just look at European soccer that doesnt have it - only 4 clubs compete for the English Premier league, 3-4 in Spain, 5-6 in Italy, 3 in Holland 2(!) in Scotland, etc.

Of course with AFL being such a cheap sport salary-wise compared with soccer, any club could get in a white knight to splurge on a hobby - $12 mil would probably buy you a good enough team. There's plent of people around for which that is just 'play money'.

Imagine Lindsay Fox at St Kilda, Pratt at Carlton, the entire ASX at Melbourne........

 

[Kaiser Powser]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

Would be very foolish to abolish the salary cap.

Look how much of an advantage Brisbane and Sydney had by having a slight bonus for those years. Imagine no limit.

We have a very good competition and we do not want it to become a farce like Premier league, where only 2-3 teams are competing for the cup every year.

Yes it would be good for rich clubs, but that is not what this game is about, the days of poaching in the 70's were dark days.

 

[The Passenger]

The problem is, where is that money to pay the players going to come from? Sure, you say cashed up benefactors. But these people didn't get rich throwing money away. The NRL can barely make enough cash to cover the salary cap it's got now. If they have to start paying players over a million dollars, they simply won't survive. The revenue stream is just not there.

therein lies the problem. the revenue stream isn't there for most clubs, but it would be for some. In the NRL that would be the Roosters, the Broncos and maybe the Bulldogs. Must admit i'm not 100% sure on the financial situations of most NRL clubs. The problem is that when these clubs buy good players off small teams, the small teams get worse. for the small teams to get better they have to pay with money they don't have, meaning they have to borrow money to get better players.

It's just a vicious cycle and will only lead to clubs closing their doors, with only a handful surviving and even fewer actually having a chance of winning.

For the handful advocating the removal a salary lets take the AFL and see what is a very likely situation if it was to be made open slather at the end of 2008.... well first thing the poorest clubs - Dogs, Roos, Hawks (??), Demons (??) would lose all their off contract players. Don't know whose off contract but we'll use examples - there is no way they would be able to keep the likes of Rob Murphy, Dan Harris, Jarryd Roughead or Brock McLean at the club when the big money comes knocking. Even the most loyal player in the world has a price tag.

Even Geelong's boys said they'd take pay cuts or accept lose than they could get elsewhere to keep the team together. But we're not talking about 20-25% less money. If another club can offer you double or even triple....

Lose some of your top players, and these clubs can't compete on the field. Can't compete on the field.... there goes the supporters, there goes your sponsors, and there goes your TV games. If you can't compete on the field the AFL doesn't want to see 100-point floggings beamed around the nation.... Lose those and the clubs lose their income, players off contract can't be re-signed and the cycle continues.

Why would a club want to throw huge sums at players?? can they make a profit. Well the corporate sponsorship would be there for the club to make a profit. Can you imagine the sponsors queuing up for a slice of the action if Carlton (or any team) could assemble Judd, Franklin, Deledio, Scarlett and Jon Brown within the one team.....

 

[seanoff]

Re: Salary cap about to be destroyed

of course if the players agree to a salary cap then it doesn't go away.

I suspect the courts will be loathe to interfere with a sporting organisation in this case. There are other parts of the rules that restrain trade more than the salary cap.

the draft
the rules for player movement

IF the salary cap did go it would be a 10 team comp very quickly.

Melb, Bullies, NM, would certainly go quickly. PA, StK and maybe Brisbane probably couldn't compete for too long. There'd be clubs going bust left and right. The players understand this, so the turkeys (the players) aren't going to vote for christmas.