Ratten, good bad and indifferent

[what did you say]

i feel for ratten,he blooded some kids to build depth for this year an years to come, davies,o'keeffe,white,collins even laids, that lot haven't been fit at all,this year could of been a break out year for one or more of them.. throw in lucas,watson who haven't taken a big step up YET, rats hasn't had alot of luck so why the hate?

 

[Back at ya]

The rot set in from the Pre-Season with many injuries, and no pre-seasons to certain players from Carlton.

But what has changed since the pies victory is an unknown internal issue which came to light for mine against St.Kilda and has not changed. Against the saints they lacked intensity, unity and spirit.
These are the cornerstones of a good team - game plans are irrelevant with the keys to team success. Sure injuries and form haven't helped but the keys under the MC have failed.

The club has a good list and those talking about trading look at the below analysis of A,B & C Players at their best. Only players I would consider trading would be Hammer or Warnock for gun fwd or onballer. Russell or Bower if we can get something for them?
A
Kreuzer
Judd
Murphy
Simpson
Carazzo
Waite
Yarran
Walker
Betts
Jamison

B
Robinson
Garlett
Henderson
Wrnock
Laidler
Touhy
Russell

C
Ellard
Hampson
McLean
Armfield (argue B)
Watson (closing on B)
Duigan
Lucas (should be B with game time)
Thornton
Bower
Curnow
Davies (could be B - is tough and has upside)


Still To Prove themselves
Bootsma (looks the goods long term)
Buckley (looks long term gun player with speed)
McInness (lock down half back could be ok)
Mitchell (Highly regarded needs to show something in 2013 after big pre-season)
Casboult (Similar to Mitchell - hopefully gets a senior game in back end of year).
Rowe (unknown)
McCarthy (needs to put on weight and show something in 2013 - play him this year)
Dale (light and raw - might be ok)
ROK - injury prone - maybe 1 more year as rookie

White - list clogger
Kerr - list clogger
Mitch Carter - keep as rookie
Bray - unknown

 

[TommyAlvinsWig]

"Old timer." Gee there is some condescending shits on this board. How about you either focus on the post or don't bother responding at all. Your age gives you no mortgage on common sense, if anything it demonstrates the opposite. You are on notice.

Interesting that you would make this call in defence of a poster who is probably the most culpable for personal attacks on this board, and who seems to have a mortgage on condescension. And for one of the milder comments I have seen bandied about in recent times, no less. The mind boggles.

Does sharing a view give one greater freedom of 'expression'? TBH I share a similar view but do not see the value nor dignity in attempting to impose it by this method.

 

[BROWN20]

If I were running your business I am sure you would thank me for not listening to a bunch of airheads on a forum that have no idea (actually less than no idea) what is actually happening.

Instead of being critical of almost poster on this forum, please explain in a logical manner as to why Carlton has slipped significantly behind Essendon/West Coast/Sydney/Adelaide etc, please exclude injuries as aside from Murphy/Laidler/Henderson we had close a full side on Friday night, particuarly after the bye a much better performance should have occured.
It has become a suitable excuse for some to blame injuries, West Coast & Collingwood have had as many if not more and it has had minimum impact.

Your logic that Ratten has the job for next year regardless of results is totally flawed, there is so many questions with no answers as to what is going at the Blues.
Why has there been such a dramatic form slump in so many players, Kruezer/Gibbs/Yarran/Gartlett/Walker
Jamison to name a few.
The logic of playing 3 ruckman is totally flawed, other teams must be laughing at this selection process, surely reverting to a more mobile forward structure similar to last year should have happened 4 weeks ago.
Are players being rushed back form injury, seems like players like Laidler/Henderson come back and then they are back injured again.

 

[lozza63]

From where i've been sitting, Rats bewilderment, lately, has probably been about the overall lack of application and intensity displayed by far too many in a Carlton jumper - most strikingly for me since the Crows game.

You have injuries that have gravely affected structure - yet that doesnt account for the see-sawing levels of concentration by the player group as a whole (outstanding exceptions Robbo, Carrots and Judd). It must be frustrating for these guys to show so much desire - seemingly to be let down by a collective lack of "buy-in". I must say that Jamo is one who hasnt looked himself - possibly still somewhat affected by his PS back ailment?

One does tend to blame the coach at these times - yet the group needs to look from within to change around their fortunes - attitude will be a good starting point (i think we saw snippets of this in the eagles game).

To see the Blues steady decline in tackling and contested ball is some indication of how belief has stalled - yet we know first hand (in Collingwood's case) that the group has it within them to perform at the required level.

For me the ball is in the players court - no coach regardless of his record, can alter this fact at present. A team can have the best game plan yet the boys have to carry it out.

 

[sherb]

Off you go then. Why do you quitters insist on telling us you are going? Why not just go? My guess is that you are not going to do anything but moan.

I shouldnt complain, if you are not watching our games you at least wont come on here telling us all what you think is wrong. Oh thats right, you dont have a clue now but still post on what is wrong so I guess not watching games makes you even more qualified to comment.

Seriously, posts like that don't do much for me either, but what's with the aggression and unpleasantness?

The constant tone of your posts is as unnecessary at the posts and posters you choose to criticize.

 

[Red Bull]

Why did Ratten withdraw from his scheduled interview on SEN 1116's crunchtime program on saturday morning ???

 

[blue gunslinger]

Seriously, posts like that don't do much for me either, but what's with the aggression and unpleasantness?

The constant tone of your posts is as unnecessary at the posts and posters you choose to criticize.

Just bewilders me how people say things like "I refuse to watch us anymore"
Did they take a 3 year hiatus when we were winning spoons? In 2 weeks time when we start winning a few games will they return then and all will be forgiven (until the next loss)?
I agree there is too much bickering on this board but people are digging their own graves with their "tongues"

 

[Krooooze]

Why did Ratten withdraw from his scheduled interview on SEN 1116's crunchtime program on saturday morning ???

I was driving to work listening to SEN's crunch time when I heard that. I must admit I was very disappointing that he pulled the pin on it. I dare say if we had won or been more competitive he prob would have done the interview.

No matter what the situation, the coach should face up to the criticism and difficult questions, because the supporters and members of the club deserve to hear what he has to say in response to the questions levelled at him. He has a high paying job in leading a football club and he should face up to the scrutiny. It's part and parcel of the job. I thought agreeing not to do the interview wasn't a good look at all on the club and Ratts himself.

Whether he had other commitments I don't know, but 10mins of his time wouldn't have hurt.

 

[mike ockerts]

Seriously, posts like that don't do much for me either, but what's with the aggression and unpleasantness?

The constant tone of your posts is as unnecessary at the posts and posters you choose to criticize.

Hold tight sherb he'll be sharpening the keyboard as we speak, top post by the way.

 

[Red Bull]

Seriously, posts like that don't do much for me either, but what's with the aggression and unpleasantness?

The constant tone of your posts is as unnecessary at the posts and posters you choose to criticize.

I have full confidence that every poster here will be treated evenly , and when they approach the "line" they will be put on notice .
Thats consistency ...... and thats all we ask Ratten to bring out in the team .

 

[blue gunslinger]

I was driving to work listening to SEN's crunch time when I heard that. I must admit I was very disappointing that he pulled the pin on it. I dare say if we had won or been more competitive he prob would have done the interview.

No matter what the situation, the coach should face up to the criticism and difficult questions, because the supporters and members of the club deserve to hear what he has to say in response to the questions levelled at him. He has a high paying job in leading a football club and he should face up to the scrutiny. It's part and parcel of the job. I thought agreeing not to do the interview wasn't a good look at all on the club and Ratts himself.

Whether he had other commitments I don't know, but 10mins of his time wouldn't have hurt.

Imagine if we find out his baby has croup and they are in the ER.

 

[SpiritR]

I am certainly not happily gunning for Ratts as I think he is a club champion and has given his all to the Carlton football club, and it's a nice fairy tale story to think Ratts and Sticks can deliver number 17, in reality that's just fanciful thinking.

Thats facts are not through lack of trying he just does not have the skill set to be a successful senior coach.

Some poor recruiting decisions over the last few years and our ability to not be able to develop players within does not help him either.

Like u said as much as I would of loved to see him succeed, he just is not a senior coach!

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

There is much disharmony within the ranks at carlton at the moment.

Ratten vs. Cordy has been widely reported now.

Ratten vs. Icke was the catalyst for Ickle's contract not being extended by the club.

Cordy vs. Tim Smith (boxing coach) because he was unhappy at the intensity of the boxing training sessions and as a result, the number of injuries that players sustained as a result (mainly shoulder injuries/soreness).

Cordy vs. Shane O'Sullivan which was reported here (I created a thread about it which must have been lost in the change-over) but it was with regard to a power struggle between the two when it came to the "line" that divided football matters and fitness staff.

Cordy vs. Luke Webster (I wont post the specific details of this one, but if you care enough shoot me a PM).

Similar to any organisation though, there are bound to bust ups between employees.

 

[Krooooze]

Imagine if we find out his baby has croup and they are in the ER.

I am talking club related. And read my last sentence.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

From where i've been sitting, Rats bewilderment, lately, has probably been about the overall lack of application and intensity displayed by far too many in a Carlton jumper - most strikingly for me since the Crows game.

You have injuries that have gravely affected structure - yet that doesnt account for the see-sawing levels of concentration by the player group as a whole (outstanding exceptions Robbo, Carrots and Judd). It must be frustrating for these guys to show so much desire - seemingly to be let down by a collective lack of "buy-in". I must say that Jamo is one who hasnt looked himself - possibly still somewhat affected by his PS back ailment?

One does tend to blame the coach at these times - yet the group needs to look from within to change around their fortunes - attitude will be a good starting point (i think we saw snippets of this in the eagles game).

To see the Blues steady decline in tackling and contested ball is some indication of how belief has stalled - yet we know first hand (in Collingwood's case) that the group has it within them to perform at the required level.

For me the ball is in the players court - no coach regardless of his record, can alter this fact at present. A team can have the best game plan yet the boys have to carry it out.

Obviously some good points here. Once incident for mine was in the first quarter where Gunston seemed to dance, too easily, around a couple of Carlton tacklers - one of which was Duigan who just seemed to throw out an arm - normally I would class him as one of our harder. more intense players and more likely to nail that tackle (or at least impede the player).

An isolated incident I know, but one whereby, if the attitude and mindset of the players was right, my gut feel is he would have made the tackle. We have all played in games where you are being flogged, and as much as we wouldn't admit, we just don't go as hard as we should.

Given this was the first quarter, on the big stage in a game we were supposedly fire up for, why was out tackling and intensity and desire to run hard defensivley so poor ?


This was the most damning thing for me on Friday night and, in my mind, the nail in the coffin for Ratten. To me it's clear the players aren't playing for him and they either do not understand the game plan or are not embracing it. No doubt the players also need to be made culpable but when we have such a massive fall as we have had then something, other than just injuries, is wrong.

 

[sherb]

I was driving to work listening to SEN's crunch time when I heard that. I must admit I was very disappointing that he pulled the pin on it. I dare say if we had won or been more competitive he prob would have done the interview.

No matter what the situation, the coach should face up to the criticism and difficult questions, because the supporters and members of the club deserve to hear what he has to say in response to the questions levelled at him. He has a high paying job in leading a football club and he should face up to the scrutiny. It's part and parcel of the job. I thought agreeing not to do the interview wasn't a good look at all on the club and Ratts himself.

Whether he had other commitments I don't know, but 10mins of his time wouldn't have hurt.

How do you know it was his choice? Maybe the club pulled the interview? Do we know one way or another?

 

[Xeno]

It would appear the Club, Sticks and administration in general had very little faith Ratten as early as 12 months ago by stating quite clearly, that if he did not progress and win a final we would be fired.

So those around here, mediumsizered, aphrodite, bluegunslinger, 40yearblue,dramouth, thegeneral - etc, etc, etc (the Big Footy clique who apparantly feel they have some form of football authority around here ) and personally attack and denigrate any supporter who questions the club and attempt to subsequently portray themselves as more virtuous (attacking supporters who want to fix things is somehow better....misplaced ideals if ever Ive seen them) are profoundly misguided and well and truly out of step with the clubs expressed interests and concerns.

Again, to the clique, the club was very,very clear about this. Now, since we have not beaten one afl standard team (Freo) in ten weeks of football, I think we can all agree is a massive, massive step backwards from the clubs EXPRESSED REQUIREMENT that we go forward.

Before the game a segment was played of a plethora of Carltons staff stating clearly that our expectation was to go top four. And that is absolutely fair enough, based on the previous seasons results, the five years before that, and the 12 years of failure we have endured.

Failing to make the top eight, which is a real probability, is completely and utterly - totally unacceptable when other clubs have had just as many, if not MORE serious injuries than we have and are going ahead in leaps and bounds.


Are there very serious problems with carltons game plan, performance, player / list management ?

Absolutely - there can not be any doubt about that what so ever - simply none. Its entirely obvious to the WHOLE AFL community - no one can deny it.

So, the only question which needs to be answered is who should take responsibility for this - and that is Sticks and Ratten.

Whether or not it is deserved, or appropriate, or fair, or the sign of a true supporter is completely irrelevant - its how a modern organisation shows responsibility and accountability, there is no way around it.


If nothing was to happen, if things were to continue as they were without the club addressing the issue in some way it would be paramount to negligence.

So to the Clique of self appointed Carlton stalwarts, you do not have a monopoly on how to be a supporter, or some moral superiority on what it takes to be a true supporter, and the language, tone and rhetoric coming from the Clique towards the rest of the community who are questioning where accountability and responsibility lies shows true lack of respect for both fellow supporters, and even less for the club.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and if you do not like a discussion around the coaches future, a very reasonable thing which happens at every club every season believe it or not, even if it is only to reaffirm their position, then perhaps it is you who should remain quiet and refrain from adding unnecessary fuel to the fire and stay out of the thread and let those who are able to have a grown up discussion about the club and its direction - have that discussion without being ridiculed by what is essentially middle class morality.


My Personal view is that Ratten is completely failing, he was clearly told to get in the box, and get his shit together against the hawks and he failed - Sticks and Fitzpatrick would no doubt have had words over his performance as the two greatest leaders in the clubs recent history - and it would not have been good.

Rattens position needs to be questioned, and right now is the time to be looking for a replacement IF he goes at the end of the year. Sacking a coach mid year is the stuff of nightmares and should never happen, however accepting reality and planning for the future is simply a smart move.

 

[sherb]

Obviously some good points here. Once incident for mine was in the first quarter where Gunston seemed to dance, too easily, around a couple of Carlton tacklers - one of which was Duigan who just seemed to throw out an arm - normally I would class him as one of our harder. more intense players and more likely to nail that tackle (or at least impede the player).

An isolated incident I know, but one whereby, if the attitude and mindset of the players was right, my gut feel is he would have made the tackle. We have all played in games where you are being flogged, and as much as we wouldn't admit, we just don't go as hard as we should.

Given this was the first quarter, on the big stage in a game we were supposedly fire up for, why was out tackling and intensity and desire to run hard defensivley so poor ?


This was the most damning thing for me on Friday night and, in my mind, the nail in the coffin for Ratten. To me it's clear the players aren't playing for him and they either do not understand the game plan or are not embracing it. No doubt the players also need to be made culpable but when we have such a massive fall as we have had then something, other than just injuries, is wrong.

Well that's a shocking indictment on the players then.

If they don't want to play for the coach, then play for the club, the supporters, their wages or themselves. Or any combination thereof.

Having a coach they don't like or connect with or whatever is no excuse for not performing at optimum level for the Carlton FC. Or any football club for that matter.

If we have players not performing at 100 percent because of the coach, they are at the wrong club.

 

[jj1978]

In reality when players skills have not improved in years, when players are all too concerned with what they'll do when they have the ball instead of getting control of it first (all those god forsaken fumbles).... When we have no game tempo (we keep trying to play too fast)! How many times the last couple of years we try to use our speed... We come back into contentio into a game then the other team throws speed back at us and we go into a ping pong session where inevitably after 10 mins of fast paced chaotic football the opposition grinds us down and kicks a handful of quick goals.

Coaches job is to get all players o the list playing cohesive football and to construct a game plan capable of winning a premiership....unfortunately our coaching department has failed from each level... The current game has gone to the level where big bodies are needed and skills are more important than speed (our players play too fast and can't handle the ball at their full speed, except for Judd why he's been a champ).

Our coaching group is currently failing in their roles.... Are players partly to blame? Yes of course they are... But sometimes the freshness of a new coach is needed.. Sometimes the same teacher and same methods just don't sink in anymore if they keep not delivering and/or those being preached have lost faith in it.

 

[blue gunslinger]

It would appear the Club, Sticks and administration in general had very little faith Ratten as early as 12 months ago by stating quite clearly, that if he did not progress and win a final we would be fired.

So those around here, mediumsizered, aphrodite, bluegunslinger, 40yearblue,dramouth, thegeneral - etc, etc, etc (the Big Footy clique who apparantly feel they have some form of football authority around here ) and personally attack and denigrate any supporter who questions the club and attempt to subsequently portray themselves as more virtuous (attacking supporters who want to fix things is somehow better....misplaced ideals if ever Ive seen them) are profoundly misguided and well and truly out of step with the clubs expressed interests and concerns.

man Thy will be miffed he was not mentioned in the BOG's!

 

[Red Bull]

It would appear the Club, Sticks and administration in general had very little faith Ratten as early as 12 months ago by stating quite clearly, that if he did not progress and win a final we would be fired.

So those around here, mediumsizered, aphrodite, bluegunslinger, 40yearblue,dramouth, thegeneral - etc, etc, etc (the Big Footy clique who apparantly feel they have some form of football authority around here ) and personally attack and denigrate any supporter who questions the club and attempt to subsequently portray themselves as more virtuous (attacking supporters who want to fix things is somehow better....misplaced ideals if ever Ive seen them) are profoundly misguided and well and truly out of step with the clubs expressed interests and concerns.

Again, to the clique, the club was very,very clear about this. Now, since we have not beaten one afl standard team (Freo) in ten weeks of football, I think we can all agree is a massive, massive step backwards from the clubs EXPRESSED REQUIREMENT that we go forward.

Before the game a segment was played of a plethora of Carltons staff stating clearly that our expectation was to go top four. And that is absolutely fair enough, based on the previous seasons results, the five years before that, and the 12 years of failure we have endured.

Failing to make the top eight, which is a real probability, is completely and utterly - totally unacceptable when other clubs have had just as many, if not MORE serious injuries than we have and are going ahead in leaps and bounds.


Are there very serious problems with carltons game plan, performance, player / list management ?

Absolutely - there can not be any doubt about that what so ever - simply none. Its entirely obvious to the WHOLE AFL community - no one can deny it.

So, the only question which needs to be answered is who should take responsibility for this - and that is Sticks and Ratten.

Whether or not it is deserved, or appropriate, or fair, or the sign of a true supporter is completely irrelevant - its how a modern organisation shows responsibility and accountability, there is no way around it.


If nothing was to happen, if things were to continue as they were without the club addressing the issue in some way it would be paramount to negligence.

So to the Clique of self appointed Carlton stalwarts, you do not have a monopoly on how to be a supporter, or some moral superiority on what it takes to be a true supporter, and the language, tone and rhetoric coming from the Clique towards the rest of the community who are questioning where accountability and responsibility lies shows true lack of respect for both fellow supporters, and even less for the club.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and if you do not like a discussion around the coaches future, a very reasonable thing which happens at every club every season believe it or not, even if it is only to reaffirm their position, then perhaps it is you who should remain quiet and refrain from adding unnecessary fuel to the fire and stay out of the thread and let those who are able to have a grown up discussion about the club and its direction - have that discussion without being ridiculed by what is essentially middle class morality.


My Personal view is that Ratten is completely failing, he was clearly told to get in the box, and get his shit together against the hawks and he failed - Sticks and Fitzpatrick would no doubt have had words over his performance as the two greatest leaders in the clubs recent history - and it would not have been good.

Rattens position needs to be questioned, and right now is the time to be looking for a replacement IF he goes at the end of the year. Sacking a coach mid year is the stuff of nightmares and should never happen, however accepting reality and planning for the future is simply a smart move.

And that just about says it all ....... well said !!!

 

[jj1978]

And for those backing Ratten let's be realistic... Look here for example at a sample of supporter discontent... Discontent brings bad publicity, reduced uptake of membership, damage to an already damaged brand... We need success, we need members... We're not Geelong or Collingwood in our present state financially and brand-wise who can afford to show an abundance of faith for another year in a coach that has too many question marks.

 

[mediumsizered]

I'll bet you $500 we don't win a flag with Ratten at the helm.

Money where your mouth is?

Take your bullshit elsewhere. If you want to put $500 up, give it to a charity & make something useful out of your life.

I really find some Carlton supporters to be the worst losers of any of AFL club supporters. An absolute entitlement mentally, which is totally unjustified. Whinge, whinge, whinge...that's all you hear at the football from certain Carlton supporters. "Gibbs is shit." "Hendo, you're useless." "**** off, Joseph."

And then you log onto BF & here they are again. Someone posted that Carlton is the laughing stock of the AFL. Wrong!!! Some Carlton supporters are the laughing stock of the AFL. You should actually take a look at yourselves. You are giving Main Board posters so much ammunition.

 

[blue gunslinger]

It would appear the Club, Sticks and administration in general had very little faith Ratten as early as 12 months ago by stating quite clearly, that if he did not progress and win a final we would be fired.

Before the game a segment was played of a plethora of Carltons staff stating clearly that our expectation was to go top four. And that is absolutely fair enough, based on the previous seasons results, the five years before that, and the 12 years of failure we have endured.

Failing to make the top eight, which is a real probability, is completely and utterly - totally unacceptable when other clubs have had just as many, if not MORE serious injuries than we have and are going ahead in leaps and bounds.


Are there very serious problems with carltons game plan, performance, player / list management ?

Absolutely - there can not be any doubt about that what so ever - simply none. Its entirely obvious to the WHOLE AFL community - no one can deny it.

So, the only question which needs to be answered is who should take responsibility for this - and that is Sticks and Ratten.

If nothing was to happen, if things were to continue as they were without the club addressing the issue in some way it would be paramount to negligence.

Rattens position needs to be questioned, and right now is the time to be looking for a replacement IF he goes at the end of the year. Sacking a coach mid year is the stuff of nightmares and should never happen, however accepting reality and planning for the future is simply a smart move.

I would not to be negative in any way but do you think the Club is NOT questioning Ratts as coach and NOT looking at a replacement