Ray is a disapointment "so far"

[Borgsta]

"Even then pick 18 isnt a very high pick" Its still our highest

So if pick 50 was our highest pick you would be upset if our pick wasnt a gun?

Have a look at some of the other absolute duds around where Alvey got taken, he is one of the best players from that area.

 

[doggies]

your an idiot acker. give the kid a go. let him put on a bit of muscle.

 

[Borgsta]

your an idiot acker.

well said

 

[bullish23]

Is this thread about Ray or Alvey? Anyways… Ray is going to be a gun. No doubt about it. Just because someone isn’t setting the world on fire 18months into their career doesn’t mean they’ll never be any good. We should be happy that this young, skinny kid doesn’t have to go and get his body smashed up in AFL packs before he is ready to do so… giving him time to mature now will mean a longer and more productive career at the doggies in the long run.

Some common sense. Most people forget Michael Tuck played 100 reserves games before becoming a regular senior player....

 

[acker]

Is this thread about Ray or Alvey? Anyways… Ray is going to be a gun. No doubt about it. Just because someone isn’t setting the world on fire 18months into their career doesn’t mean they’ll never be any good. We should be happy that this young, skinny kid doesn’t have to go and get his body smashed up in AFL packs before he is ready to do so… giving him time to mature now will mean a longer and more productive career at the doggies in the long run.

Good on you Gooka, unlike "Doggies", "Redhouse", "Borgsta" and that "scooter dork" etc. You have put up a thought out response.

 

[BatteredBulldog]

Get off Ackers back !
He basically asked a simple question about whether Ray will make it or not and so what if he got a couple of facts wrong about draft pick order.

Just answer the question with whether you agree with him or not. No need to get personal and ridicule the guy!
I can come up with a number of ridiculous statements we have all made ( yes thats right, even the ones bagging acker here).

There was a lot of people on this same board who questioned Rays recruitment even when he was drafted, let alone 18 months into his career.

So acker is well entitled to question his recruitement taking into account some pretty speculative picks the Dogs have made in their recent history ( Koops,Street,Walsh etc..
Yes we have had some success stories, but far too many bad stories.

you may as well start bagging me now guys, Im expecting it!

 

[Red House]

Good on you Gooka, unlike "Doggies", "Redhouse", "Borgsta" and that "scooter dork" etc. You have put up a thought out response.

 

[bogan4life]

We picked him (4) ahead of Kane Tenace (7) and Raphael Clarke (8). In hindsight I am starting to think we picked the wrong player and should have went with one of them or Kepler Bradley (6).
With the exeption of Cooney, we have had a pretty ordinary run with our higher draft picks since we picked up Nathan Brown in 1996 and Robbie Murphy in 1999.
1997........Mark Alvey.....Traded and struggling to get a game with Essendon now
1998........Luke Penny.....Waste of space
1999........Robert Murphy.....Great pick
2000........Jordan McMahon.....Took ages to come on but looks OK now
2001........Sam Power.....Still just looks like he is a plodder
2002........Tim Walsh.....Probably on his last chance, I have my doubts about him
2003........Adam Cooney.....Rare diamond amongst a pile of rough rocks (Farren Ray (4).....Wants to pull his finger out or he will join Alvey )
2004........Ryan Griffen.....Miles ahead of Farren Ray at the moment

First of all we would kill to have Penny back but he wasnt happy with the coacihing but oh well
Sam Power his been 1 of our best in the last coulpe and is taking a step forward

Tim Walsh on last chance he is only 20 years old looked good against north

Why not mention that we picked up Harris and Skipper with picks in the late 70 to ealry 80s or Hargrave with pick 55 or mitch hahn or danny cross with picks in the 30s

we have had good drafting just that we havnt picked up enough tall timber to this year

as for Farren Ray he is a 2nd year player and just because he hasnt been a star like conney yet your saying his dissapointment
you must not have seen werribee this year his form is great and just need to bulk up
i bet that during say 2003 you would have said the same things about the like of Gilbee and Gio give them time to devolp before you right them of

 

[bogan4life]

your an idiot acker. give the kid a go. let him put on a bit of muscle.

guys be nice to acker seeing he is the only person on here with a kids membership

 

[stefoid]

Ray was always going to take a while - remember, he only took up aussie rules when he was 15yo. the fact that he has gone from a dodgy kick to a pretty good kick in a single season with us shows he is capable of learning quickly.

at the moment, he is close to breaking into the side, but its probably better for his personal development to play 120 minutes with weribee than 40 minutes hot and cold off the bench in the seniors.

next year will be his year.

 

[Fossie 32]

Yeah lets play the ball not the man


but I don't think Ray is disappointing - has not been given much game time in the seniors [what is the right word for that now? Dogs?] and has done well when he has come on apart from his last game in which he was a bit quiet.

 

[bogan4life]

ok mi no this was in the paper but this is how bad the dogs draft

1999
Priority
1. Collingwood - Josh Fraser (Murray Bushrangers)
2. Fremantle - Paul Hasleby (East Fremantle)

Round 1
3. Richmond - Aaron Fiora (Port Adelaide Magpies)
4. Fremantle - Matthew Pavlich (West Torrens)
5. Fremantle - Leigh Brown (Gippsland)
6. Brisbane - Damian Cupido (Eastern Bushrangers)
7. Collingwood - Danny Roach (Tassie Mariners)
8. Geelong - Joel Corey (East Perth)
9. St Kilda - Cayden Beetham (Oakleigh Chargers)
10. Hawthorn - Luke McPharlin (East Fremantle)
11. West Coast - Darren Glass (Perth)
12. Port Adelaide - Paul Koulouriotis (Calder Cannons)
13. Western Bulldogs - Robert Murphy (Gippsland Power) 14. West Coast - Travis Gaspar (South Fremantle)
15. Geelong - David Spriggs (Prahran Dragons)
16. West Coast - David Haynes (Geelong Falcons)
17. Geelong - Ezra Bray (Calder Cannons)

Round 2
18. Collingwood - Rhyce Shaw (Preston Knights) father-son
19. Melbourne - Brad Green (Tassie Mariners)
20. Melbourne - Paul Wheatley (Preston Knights)
21. Sydney - Scott Stevens (Perth)
22. Richmond - Ezra Poyas (Prahran Dragons)
23. Geelong - Daniel Foster (Port Adelaide Magpies)
24. St Kilda - Jason Blake (Prahran Dragons)
25. Hawthorn - Brett Johnson (Swan Districts)
26. Sydney - Stephen Doyle (South Adelaide) father-son rule
27. Port Adelaide - Cain Ackland (Port Adelaide Magpies)
28. Port Adelaide - Brent Guerra (Bendigo Pioneers)
29. West Coast - Adam Hunter (Swan Districts)
30. Brisbane - Jonathon Brown (Geelong Falcons) father-son rule
31. Geelong - Paul Chapman (Calder Cannons)
32. Western Bulldogs - Daniel Giansiracusa (Western Jets)

Round 3
33. Hawthorn - Tim Clarke (Geelong Falcons)
34. Collingwood - Leon Davis (Perth)
35. Western Bulldogs - Patrick Wiggins (Tassie Mariners) 36. Adelaide - Rhett Biglands (Woodville-West Torrens)
37. Western Bulldogs - Mitchell Hahn (Northern Eagles)
38. Geelong - Cameron Ling (Geelong Falcons)
39. Richmond - Scott Homewood (Eastern Ranges)
40. Essendon - David Hille (Dandenong Stingrays)
41. West Coast - Kane Munro (Bendigo Pioneers)
42: Melbourne - Michael Clark (Eastern Ranges)
43. Western Bulldogs - Lindsay Gilbee (Eastern Ranges) 44. Brisbane Lions - Shane Morrison (Northern Eagles) father-son
45. Essendon - Marcus Pickett (Pt Adelaide)
46. Fremantle - Adam Butler (Murray Bushrangers)
47. Geelong - Corey Enright (Pt Adelaide)

Round 4
48. Hawthorn - Chance Bateman (Perth)
49. Fremantle - Ben Cunningham (Claremont)
50. Melbourne - Matthew Wheelan (Darwin)
51. Adelaide - Rick O'Loughlin (Port Adelaide)
52. Richmond - Andrew Mills (Murray Bushrangers)
53. Kangaroos - Clayton Lasscock (West Perth)
54. St Kilda - Murray Pitts (St Kilda Supp List)
55. Hawthorn - Timothy Hazel (Tassie Mariners)
56. Sydney - Ryan O'Keefe (Calder Canons)
57. Port Adelaide - Steve Brosnan (Port Adelaide)
58. Port Adelaide - Patrick Bowden (Rovers)
59. Essendon - John Barnes (Geelong)
60. Carlton - Richard Kelly (Perth)
61. Kangaroos - Mark Ainley (Prahran Dragons)

Round 5
62. Collingwood - Ben Johnson (Preston Knights)
63. Collingwood - Shannon O'Brien (Gippsland Power)
64. Melbourne - Cameron Bruce (Melb Supp List)
65. Adelaide - Justin Cicolella (Woodville-West Torrens)
66. Western Bulldogs - Ryan Hargrave (Perth)
67. Adelaide Robert Shirley (Woodville-West Torrens)
68. St Kilda - Tony Delaney (Fremantle)
69. Hawthorn - William Nicholls (Geelong Falcons)
70. Sydney - Brett Allison (Kangaroos)
71. Pass Port Adelaide
72. Essendon - Robert Foster-Knight (Murray Bushrangers)
73. Carlton - Ryan Houlihan (Murray Bushrangers)
74. Kangaroos - Matthew Burton (Fremantle Dockers)

Round 6
75. Collingwood - Dale Baynes (East Fremantle)
76. Fremantle - Pass
77. Kangaroos - Lindsay Smith (Glenelg)
78. Richmond - Ty Zantuck (Western Jets)
79. Adelaide - Balraj Singh (West Adelaide)
80. Carlton - Jeremy Dukes (Prahran Dragons)
81. Kangaroos - Roy Makepeace (Kangaroos Supp List)

Round 7
82. Collingwood - Nick Stone (Prahran Dragons)
83. Adelaide - Matthew Shir (Murray Bushrangers)
84. Richmond - Pass
85. Hawthorn - Pass
86. Carlton - Trent Hotton (East Burwood)
87. Kangaroos - Christian Woodley (Subiaco)

Round 8
88. Collingwood - Michael Clark (Fremantle)
89. Adelaide - Pass
90. Carlton - Andrew Merrington (St Bernards)

Round 9
91. Adelaide - Pass
92. Carlton - Adam Mathews (Murray Bushrangers)

Round 10
93. Carlton - Joseph Allen (Gippsland Power)


yep im so pis sed the way we have drafted only 1 star and that Pat Wiggins

 

[acker]

i bet that during say 2003 you would have said the same things about the like of Gilbee and Gio give them time to devolp before you right them of

First of all bogan I agree that a lot of our later picks have been good, I dont have any problems expecially after 1998 when Scott Clayton came on board how we have drafted those. What I did say is that I hav'nt been convinced that our higher picks when we have had them have been used the right way.
I would'nt have an issue with Farren Ray being at this development stage if we had picked him up later in the draft. But we picked him up at 4th pick which does concern me. As I said earlier I think Ryan Griffin who we picked up at 3rd pick this year, is more advanced and polished than Farren is, and Farren has had 12 months head start on him.
By the way in 2003 I thought that Gilbee and Giansiracusa should get game time.

 

[bogan4life]

Grif is not more advanced then Ray he is just getting the odd game
remember that you can build muscle but not abilty he is high skiled and should not e expected to be a really good player to 2008

 

[acker]

Grif is not more advanced then Ray he is just getting the odd game
remember that you can build muscle but not abilty he is high skiled and should not e expected to be a really good player to 2008

I think even my enemy's would expect him to come on quicker than 2008

 

[stefoid]

you cant compare griffen to ray. grif is 'complete package' player who could have easilly gone pick 1, and would have if we had that pick.

in rays year, the only instant sure bet was cooney - all the rest were 'normal development' type of players which means maybe a cameo or two in their first year, a fair few games in their second year, and coming online properly in their third year.

syliva and walker were taken before ray and have come along a fairly normal if unspectacular development path.

In fact apart from cooney and possibly bradley, nobody from the top 10 of that years draft has played a string of really good games.

both mclean and bradley may turn out to be fairly uninspiring one-trick ponies. sylvia may find out that he cant pick on the big kids as well as he picked on the little ones.

we could easilly turn out to have the two best picks of the top 10 of that draft. ask again in 3 years time.

 

[bogan4life]

I think even my enemy's would expect him to come on quicker than 2008

im saying in 3 years time he wil be where gilbee is
good player by next year really good by 08

 

[bulldogtragic]

crap.

 

[Borgsta]

I think even my enemy's would expect him to come on quicker than 2008

Oh god now we are enemies, get a grip man. Anyway I dont expect Ray to be a champ before 2008. Next year I'd like him to play about 12-16 games and 2007 hopefully play every game. By the time 2008 rolls aronud he should have about 60-70 games under his belt and should be ready for an assault on the AFL.

The best thing is I expect Griff and Coon to be peaking at the exact same time.

 

[OldSchool]

Even then wasnt Alvey a 2nd round pick?

Yes there are a few errors. Alvey was selected at number 18 in 1997

 

[FrediKanoute]

Its all fair and well to say that Mark Alvey was a waste of a pick, but if you look through the list there are probably only 7 or so guys after that who are still playing footy regularly:

Dean Soloman 20 Essendon
Nick Stevens 25 Port
Simon Black 31 Brisbane
Adam Goodes 43 Sydney
Nathan D Brown 66 Melbourne
Beau McDonald 73 Brisbane
Nathan Thompson 82 Hawthorn

Admittedly Black and Goodes have been stand outs and Stevens and Solomons have been handy.

Was Clayton the recruiting Guru at the Lions that year?

 

[Sedat!]

The key buzz-word to describe someone like Ray is "upside". Having played the game for only 3-4 years, he has developed an amazing amount in that time, and can only expect to continue developing. Ditto someone like Tom Williams. The likes of Sylvia and McLean dominate at junior level and are quality players, but they will not significantly improve at senior level, and certainly not at the same level as Ray. Don't worry, we have a very good one in young Farren.

 

[OldSchool]

Get off Ackers back !
He basically asked a simple question about whether Ray will make it or not and so what if he got a couple of facts wrong about draft pick order.

Just answer the question with whether you agree with him or not. No need to get personal and ridicule the guy!
I can come up with a number of ridiculous statements we have all made ( yes thats right, even the ones bagging acker here).

Ray is into his 2nd season as a player and is far from the 'disappointment' that Acker seems to think. We all know that he came to us as a long term prospect and that he needed a few seasons to physically develop before we would see the type of player he can be.
He didn't come to us as a ready-made player so for anyone to be labelling him a disappointment already without stating why he is deficient as a player obviously will provoke some strong responses.
Rather than comparing him to others now shouldn't Acker be stating why he thinks he is deficient? It's very easy to use the power of hindsight in a comparision but really Ray should be judged on how he shapes up in 2006 not now.


We are all too quick to simply write players off.

 

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Farren Ray is going to be the final key to our emerging midfield within 2-3 years, in my opinion.
I also believe he will be rotated into the senior team increasingly as the season progresses.

Once the young man adds some bulk to his frame, he may just prove to be as valuable a jewel as Cooney will undoubtedly be.
I for one would rather he is eased into the line-up as his frame develops, than have him get hammered and targeted by the opposition week in week out at the moment.

I am sure most teams picking near us in the draft that delivered Farren to us, were very disappointed they couldn't get their heands on him.
Whilst others taken in the same draft, as you point out Acker may be providing more value to their respective teams right now, let's see how that equation looks in another 2 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if he only plays 8 or 9 games max this year. I wouldn't be disappointed in that figure, I don't don't think it would be a reflector of weher Rodney Eade see's this guy.
A further point to consider is that our current first team midfield is showing great signs of being a genuine threat to the opposition. This allows us the luxury of not exposing Farren week in week out at this stage of his development.

In many teams these guys would have to play every week due to the 1st's midfielders not performing. It demonsrates to me how happy Eade must be with the way Cross, Guido, Cooney, West and others rotated through the midfield are performing to allow him the added luxury of bringing on guys like Ray & Griffen at his leisure, and only when they are ready.

How many teams in the AFL at the moment would love to have emerging midfielders like Ray, and Griffen coming through their system? Without the need to rush their elevation to the first team, perhaps before they're ready for the constant rigours of AFL footy. Although Griffen's already developed body will I think, see him play more than Ray in the immediate future.

I used to be worried about the day Westy and Jonno retired, but now I feel alot better about the prospects of a Bulldogs midfield say 2008 run predominantly by Cooney, Ray, and Griffen at the top of their respective games.
We may then find that young Farren becomes the best of all of our midfield prospects.

 

[acker]

Note my title does say "so far"
I stick by that with 10 games so far I am a bit disapointed in him, Colin Sylvia winning the rising star amplified my feelings this morning and probably edged to write the post.
I dont mind having posted it if the kid comes out in the rest of the season and starts showing a bit fine I was wrong.
But I dont mind putting the thread on the board because he is a high pick number 4, he might not have been our highest pick for 2003 but he was higher than most of our others in years gone past.
I thought 18 months ago when we drafted him that he might have done more than 10 games with a game high 11 possesions against Collingwood in R1.
Maybe Cooney and Griffen have raised my expectations on the kid and where he's meant to be at to unrealistic highs.