List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?

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imperial_oz said:
Way to miss the point and what has been happening for the last two years.

We haven't actually phased anybody out as we are just recycling failed players over and over again, which is continuing what we did last year when the rebuild actually started. So not 6 months.

My mistake was treating your original question seriously
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Im not missing anything but your definitely missing a realistic view of the situation the teams currently in

And no this is the first year of the re build(list management model)...ross and co signed off on it over the pre season ...thats a fact.
Last year they still had hopes for a high end finish , it went balls up and the year was a right off with only getting games into the youngsters/some experimentation the silver lining.
I think you severly underestimate how hard it is to change an entire pre seasons work on the run mid season

Look I despise sherry/sutty/spurr and co as much as the next person believe me, but again im not too sure how much more you expect the team to change? Or their options left ...bring in nyhuis?- he still on the rookie list ,he needs upgrading as does deluca ...im willing to bet they ll be given games at some point.Bring logue back in, he s already had a run of games , he ll get more, likewise darcy will get game time....he s a first year ruck ffs
We're just about at the bottom of the well...and we're sitting 9th at the halfway point of the early stages(suits you better?) of the rebuild (most pundits had us finshing anywhere between 6th and 12 th)
if you want to direct your anger at anyone in the club I suggest you start with recruitment department
 
jedi mind tricks said:
That's a major issue. I think Ross doesn't have the best coaching personal working with him.
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All the good ones left which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Maybe they were sick to death of the defence first mantra. Sumich copped blame but it's pretty damn hard to form a good forward line with what he had to work with.
 
yakka man said:
All the good ones left which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Maybe they were sick to death of the defence first mantra.
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Stop talking utter bullshit. Brett Kirk idolises Ross as the coach who turned his career around from being utterly shit with no offensive side to his game to being one of the most feted players now held up as a role model for the younger generation. His entire coaching philosophy is modelled on what Ross taught him about getting the best out of players.
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2012-11-11/when-kirk-met-lyon

Kirk had been pestering Ross for years for a chance to coach under him and was willing to move his whole family including 5 children to the West for the opportunity to do so. It was always understood he'd be returning home for family reasons at some point, which he did after a full 3 years that set him up beautifully.

Simon Lloyd (the only other good coach to have left under Lyon) has senior coaching aspirations and Geelong offered him a promotion which was not in Ross' gift to bestow, and which Lloyd would've been mad to turn down.

yakka man said:
Sumich copped blame but it's pretty damn hard to form a good forward line with what he had to work with.
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Poor Sumich. What Sumich had to work with is precisely what Ross had to work with in the forward line. In Ross's case it's his "defence first mantra" that is reason we can't score, while poor Sumich was given nothing by the recruiters to work with.
 

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Test of mettle coming this week. RTB will be in the cross hairs of the media furnace. Feels similar to the depths of despair in mid-2012 when he had to rebuild an 'obliterated' midfield back then too after a nasty loss with many baying for his blood. Amidst the navel gazing, the Cobblers will be shifted aside for some good old fashioned Clobbering but as before, one holds their breathe and hopes he has the cattle and that he has not lost them. Very hard to see a similar outcome on the other side of all of this but praying it's deja vu.
 
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I dunno.

Feels a bit to me that we have the best laid plans.
All things being equal, we'd have Apeness, Alex Pearce, Bennell and Yarran out on the paddock.
Yes all teams have injuries, but losing them all effectively for the whole season hasn't been ideal. Couple that with Ballantyne and we're limping
Fyfe wouldn't be looking like he'd been skewered.

Mostly I've been happy with the way the rebuild is going.
There's definitely been a change with regard to personnel.
We have had periods where the game style has changed.
The last 3 weeks haven't been great.

I'd like to see a continuation of that with Nyhuis, Deluca, Logue and Hughes coming in at various stages.
 
I really struggle to understand why we have been battling for 18 months with a new game plan. Richmond clearly changed their game plan over the pre-season, are executing it fairly well and are getting results. If they knew what to do in the last 2 mins of a match they would be doing phenomenally well.

We have been unable to get the ball out of our backline since the middle of 2015. How are we making this so hard?
 
Crippa said:
Stop talking utter bullshit. Brett Kirk idolises Ross as the coach who turned his career around from being utterly shit with no offensive side to his game to being one of the most feted players now held up as a role model for the younger generation. His entire coaching philosophy is modelled on what Ross taught him about getting the best out of players.
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2012-11-11/when-kirk-met-lyon

Kirk had been pestering Ross for years for a chance to coach under him and was willing to move his whole family including 5 children to the West for the opportunity to do so. It was always understood he'd be returning home for family reasons at some point, which he did after a full 3 years that set him up beautifully.

Simon Lloyd (the only other good coach to have left under Lyon) has senior coaching aspirations and Geelong offered him a promotion which was not in Ross' gift to bestow, and which Lloyd would've been mad to turn down.



Poor Sumich. What Sumich had to work with is precisely what Ross had to work with in the forward line. In Ross's case it's his "defence first mantra" that is reason we can't score, while poor Sumich was given nothing by the recruiters to work with.
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Geez. The denial is strong in this one. Simon Lloyd was our most senior coach after Ross and he certainly didn't leave to become senior coach at Geelong. So it seems like you're making things up to suit your argument. They all left after the announcement of Lyon's big contract extension. And what are you trying to say about Sumich, I can't figure it out? We have had good players down there, you can't blame it all on the recruiters. Sumich didn't leave for a promotion. There was clearly a big Exodus of senior coaching staff and we haven't been able to attract any good replacements, and in fact Lyon's role was expanded.

Answer me this honestly. Do you believe the club can and will win a premiership under Ross Lyon? I don't.
 
Zac Clarke and Yarran,

Apeness, Alex Pearce, Balic, Bennell Ballantyne Uebergang Deluca


Dawson, D Pearce, Suban.

Ibbotson, Sutcliffe, Crozier, Sheridan

If you look at this list, the red is who have been unavailable during all or some of the season for various reasons.
The red underlined won't play for us next year, and the blue have already had a line through them for next year.

The red italics have significant doubts on them for NEXT YEAR too.

Purple players who may gets us a wet sock in a trade

We still have so many players to replace.
We may need to trade down again just to get some players through the doors in trades
If we had more picks I'd keep these guys and the rest would go: Apeness, Alex Pearce, Balic, Bennell Ballantyne Uebergang Deluca.

9 players again. Barlow and De Boer would've been handy about now to be honest
 
yakka man said:
Geez. The denial is strong in this one. Simon Lloyd was our most senior coach after Ross and he certainly didn't leave to become senior coach at Geelong. So it seems like you're making things up to suit your argument. They all left after the announcement of Lyon's big contract extension. And what are you trying to say about Sumich, I can't figure it out? We have had good players down there, you can't blame it all on the recruiters. Sumich didn't leave for a promotion. There was clearly a big Exodus of senior coaching staff and we haven't been able to attract any good replacements, and in fact Lyon's role was expanded.

Answer me this honestly. Do you believe the club can and will win a premiership under Ross Lyon? I don't.
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Honestly no I don't think he's capable of it. But saying that I desperately hope I'm 100% wrong.
 
dockerfemme said:
I really struggle to understand why we have been battling for 18 months with a new game plan. Richmond clearly changed their game plan over the pre-season, are executing it fairly well and are getting results. If they knew what to do in the last 2 mins of a match they would be doing phenomenally well.

We have been unable to get the ball out of our backline since the middle of 2015. How are we making this so hard?
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Personnel?
Can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
We don't currently have a Roger Hayden/Paul Duffield type. (As much as Duffield gave me the shits defensively, he could run and carry and kick well).

Ryan, Nyhuis, Logue, Hughes have been drafted for this purpose. Ibbotson and Spurr have had their day and we have a gap. Weller and Stephen Hill aren't the answer, they need to be played amidship.
We alo looked better when Langdon was fit. Brad Hill and he on opposite wings allowed us to open space more
 

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Lach72 said:
Purple players who may gets us a wet sock in a trade
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I don't want to lose Langdon or Balic but I reckon you can add them to the list. Maybe Collins too.
And I reckon Clarke will stay as back up
 
Sucker for punishment, I decided to re-watch the game last night. Previous thoughts that it was our worst performance in recent memory were confirmed. I'm still not convinced it is a game plan problem - our whole team looked cooked almost from the first bounce. I'm certainly not one of these Lyon can do no wrong people but I really don't know what he could have changed on game day to make us more competitive on the weekend? Our players just weren't willing/able to chase/run. They have looked slow, tired and unfocussed for a few games, not just this one, so I'm not buying into the 6 day break playing a team coming off a bye (although that is still ridiculous scheduling). If I didn't know better I'd swear the whole team had been woken up by their alarms that afternoon to get on the team bus after coming back to the hotel in the morning after a long night out on the town.

Something is clearly wrong with our game preparation. We get smashed in the first quarter every single game. We've been good enough to fight back the deficit in a few games but there have been no signs of any digging deep in the past 3 games. As the head coach, Lyon is responsible, and he needs to wear it but I think it is more about preparation and fitness than game plan (not saying the game plan can't improve a heap mind you). I'd use the bye to do a review of what has gone on that might explain what is happening.

It's easy for us to criticise the ball carrier for turning it over but when you step back and look at the options they are presented with you understand why. There is no spread - nobody is moving. Every time we transitioned the ball (relatively) well there were two common themes: (a) the first kick was by someone who could kick (eg Ryan, Crozier); and (b) the players forward of the ball worked hard to run to space (eg Brad Hill).

And it's similar when the opposition have the ball. You look back at our pressure in early 2015 and it was immense. The past three games it's like the opposition are doing a training drill moving the ball around witches hats. Zero intensity. They moved the ball easily because they always outnumbered us. It only takes one or two players not doing their job defensively for the whole system to fall down. And when you are outnumbered with that inside 50 entry against it's close to impossible to defend against. I'd personally drop anyone in the forward line or midfield who isn't running hard enough either due to effort or injury/fitness. I don't care who it is, if they aren't able to do their role defensively and to spread when we have possession then they are a liability to the whole system and someone else should be given an opportunity in their spot.

Individual acts of brilliance can and have gotten us over the line for a few wins but we need to be creating a team machine to be consistently competitive and have a real shot at a premiership at some stage. I'm an advocate for a whole of team effort-based game plan. The Hawks premierships were due to a whole of team plan (plenty of skills but it was still a team machine) and the Dogs was purely on whole of team effort. I think the reason there have been so many upsets this season is purely because one team is willing to put in more effort than the other. No way Carlton beats GWS on the weekend if it were all about skills. I don't think it's all doom and gloom but we need to see more changes than just moving the magnets on the white board.
 
So after trying to reflect on the weekends result, I'm trying to pinpoint what concerns me most. While the abysmal skill, effort and gameplan is bad enough, what what I think is most concerning is that the players just seem to lose the gameplan so quickly. 2015 is an absolute enigma. We went from playing the most dynamic, breathtaking football to being slow and predictable. 2016 was obviously a disaster but still for a short while we played some good games but then finished the season playing the same lifeless rubbish, almost like the good games never existed. This year couldn't have started worse, then something clicked and just as quickly it vanished again. I don't put it down to fitness for many reasons, one being this happened at the start of the season in 2016/17. Its not the young personell because it happened mid 2015 and the start of 16/17 when we had very experienced sides.
It has to be the coaching /tactics. From the outside looking in, Ross takes a very wholistic approach whereby the outcome of any given in contest is attributed to one thing ..... effort. It seems to me that he doesn't concern himself with certain kinds of detail. Examples might be Mayne and his goal kicking. Never once did the training watches mention that Mayne was practicing his goal kicking for an hour after training. Others have mentioned that we continually have more than one defender flying for a contest. This has been for years. No one on the ground. Does Taberner practice one on one marking? Not just sometimes or in match sims but every session? I doubt it.
Things like if you're kicking with the breeze, the ball will likely go over the back of the pack in a marking contest.
The entire coaching panel need to re focus their teachings.
You know what pro golfers practice more than anything else? 3 foot putts. The most important and basic skill.
For us, switching plays and bringing effort is pointless if you cant kick the ball to a teammate when you're under pressure. There's a lot more to it than this but this is where id start. Whatever a players weakness is, work on it until it becomes a strength.
 
Damage already done in JLT and the first two rd of AfL game for the full season preparation.
None of the following young players play in JLT ( Ethan ,Collins,croz,grey,Luke Ryan , Cox)
Limited game time in JLT ( Sean Darcy ,logue,tab) plus injuries.

How could you expect them to come in and know the game plan and create chemistry between each other on the fly . Apart from tab and croz none play more than 100 game among them .
 
Moist Biscuit said:
Honestly no I don't think he's capable of it. But saying that I desperately hope I'm 100% wrong.
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The issue with statements like this is you will almost always be right just by sheer luck, given that the vast majority of AFL coaches never win a premiership. It's a nothing statement. And it is especially silly given Ross has actually taken us to a GF and again the vast majority of AFL coaches never see one.

That includes anyone we might hire. Even the most highly touted clarko assistants may not have whatever Ross is apparently lacking. Look down the road - the exact same issues with inflexible game plan and team selection.
 
yakka man said:
Simon Lloyd was our most senior coach after Ross and he certainly didn't leave to become senior coach at Geelong.
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"Geelong offered him a promotion". Which part of that statement do you not understand?
yakka man said:
They all left after the announcement of Lyon's big contract extension.
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No kidding. There's a classic logical fallacy known as "post hoc ergo propter hoc" ("after this, therefore because of this") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc Your posts of late are riddled with it and are consequently utterly barmy.
yakka man said:
What are you trying to say about Sumich, I can't figure it out? We have had good players down there, you can't blame it all on the recruiters.
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I was parodying the double standard implied your statement that Sumich can't be blamed because "it's pretty damn hard to form a good forward line with what he had to work with"
yakka man said:
Answer me this honestly. Do you believe the club can and will win a premiership under Ross Lyon? I don't.
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My honest belief is that Jesus Christ himself may have been to walk on water but not even he could coach us to a premiership by 2020.
 
Crippa said:
My honest belief is that Jesus Christ himself may have been to walk on water but not even he could coach us to a premiership by 2020.
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What needs to change then for us to be on track to winning the flag by 2020?

I'm hoping that the club doesn't hold the same defeatist attitude as you.
 
TheMcManusNose said:
The issue with statements like this is you will almost always be right just by sheer luck, given that the vast majority of AFL coaches never win a premiership. It's a nothing statement. And it is especially silly given Ross has actually taken us to a GF and again the vast majority of AFL coaches never see one.

That includes anyone we might hire. Even the most highly touted clarko assistants may not have whatever Ross is apparently lacking. Look down the road - the exact same issues with inflexible game plan and team selection.
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Who shat in your cornflakes this morning. Lay off the Ross Lyon coolaid, it's not good for you. I personally think many of your comments are "nothing statements". Just because you don't agree with what I have to say, it doesn't mean it's a nothing statement. Ross isn't the messiah, it's time for you to understand that.
 
Crippa said:
"Geelong offered him a promotion". Which part of that statement do you not understand?


No kidding. There's a classic logical fallacy known as "post hoc ergo propter hoc" ("after this, therefore because of this") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc Your posts of late are riddled with it and are consequently utterly barmy.


I was parodying the double standard implied your statement that Sumich can't be blamed because "it's pretty damn hard to form a good forward line with what he had to work with"


My honest belief is that Jesus Christ himself may have been to walk on water but not even he could coach us to a premiership by 2020.
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Oh right, so evidence and data shouldn't be factored into an opinion? You've lost me Cripps, your blind defense of Ross Lyon is baffling. There's a reason he is widely believed to be bad for the game.

Regarding Simon Lloyd you could be right but please find me a quote saying his position at Geelong is a promotion. He was extremely senior at Freo as I said.
 
yakka man said:
Regarding Simon Lloyd you could be right but please find me a quote saying his position at Geelong is a promotion. He was extremely senior at Freo as I said.
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Don't want to get caught in the crossfire but his role at Geelong is to manage the performance and development of coaches as well as the player development program. From my recollection, he was a Senior Development Coach in the sense of player development only at Freo. So if nothing else, I think it's an expanded role (but he also wanted to get home to family as I think they stayed in Vic while he worked across here).
 

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List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

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