List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Bicco]

and what happens when other clubs work out what we're trying to do

This is something I've been thinking about too. What happens when we go from hunter to hunted.

 

[Cesoir]

This is something I've been thinking about too. What happens when we go from hunter to hunted.

You need to be good enough that even when teams do figure out what you are trying to do they can't stop it. Everyone knew what Hawthorn were doing, but stopping them from doing it proved next to impossible!

I think we are a long way from that point, but having a stable team playing consistently good footy will make us bloody hard to beat, and that's all we can aim for at the moment. Whether that translates into a premiership in the next few years will depend on just how well we develop or recruit players.

Certainly there are signs we are becoming more predictable and I think that is the key to sustained success.

 

[fnerd]

This is something I've been thinking about too. What happens when we go from hunter to hunted.

Let’s just worry bout getting really good at hunting first

 

[armpit]

No doubt.

I do find it interesting the changes in view of things external to Freo across the last 12 months (or longer) but the views held about Freo and Ross Lyon are steadfastly held in place. It's the same posters on both sides (mostly) with very few changing their minds. I'd be interested in hearing from the less vocal who have wanted change in the last 18 months, the likes of Lach72 electricfeel Cameron_K Admiral Byng nurries PurpleGreenRed E Shed prpl_jss wild side and many more were all vocal 12-18 months ago about booting Ross (along with a LOT of others (capitals for BlueE )). Any of them think we are on the right path now?

The right path does not mean extending RL's contract but that Freo (and RL) maybe had a timeline and rebuild in place for a few years and it is starting to match the timeframe they laid out in mid 2016.

Of course, we could easily tank from here as we have done for the last couple of seasons. That will make for some interesting reading too.

I must admit I've said some stuff about Ross, but this season has turned me.

 

[Admiral Byng]

No doubt.

I do find it interesting the changes in view of things external to Freo across the last 12 months (or longer) but the views held about Freo and Ross Lyon are steadfastly held in place. It's the same posters on both sides (mostly) with very few changing their minds. I'd be interested in hearing from the less vocal who have wanted change in the last 18 months, the likes of Lach72 electricfeel Cameron_K Admiral Byng nurries PurpleGreenRed E Shed prpl_jss wild side and many more were all vocal 12-18 months ago about booting Ross (along with a LOT of others (capitals for BlueE )). Any of them think we are on the right path now?

The right path does not mean extending RL's contract but that Freo (and RL) maybe had a timeline and rebuild in place for a few years and it is starting to match the timeframe they laid out in mid 2016.

Of course, we could easily tank from here as we have done for the last couple of seasons. That will make for some interesting reading too.

I'm a bit torn. I really didn't think Ross had it in him to change. But there have been glimpses of a style of footy I really like, which is moving the ball forward with purpose (i.e. keeping control of it) into a position where we can kick low inside 50m to a moving target. We looked brilliant against North. Also I really enjoyed the first 15 minutes of the last quarter against GWS when the game was there to be won and we took it with this style of play.

Am I convinced yet? Nearly. I don't know. So I've been a bit quiet on the subject. But since you've tagged me in on it I'll respond.

 

[Dockers v Channel7West]

RTB invested a lot in improving the list last year blooding young players (un Ross like at the time) and deserves his chance this year with the right cattle to do his cobbling
Frustrated me with the number of games he gave some players like Crowden who really needed time at Peel but got a lot of game time into a young list
With Blakely coming back into the midfield and our up and coming players reducing thier turnovers/clangers im quietly confident RTB will prove his worth
If not will be joining the possie for change

 

[Purple Maverick]

We have been tanking the last two seasons

 

[theGav56]

We have been tanking the last two seasons

Well, we kind of have been. The focus has been on development is how I would put it. Certainly haven't been deliberately losing games to improve draft picks though.

 

[Dockers v Channel7West]

We have been tanking the last two seasons

Rebuilding
Hogan
Lobb
Cerra
Brayshaw
Sturt
Valente
Colyer
North

The future!!!!!!!!!!

 

[estibador]

We have been tanking the last two seasons

We've just had plenty of GC games the last two years, and we've probably got a few more to come yet too.

But the lows are starting to get better and the highs are too.

 

[tacopavlich]

No doubt.

I do find it interesting the changes in view of things external to Freo across the last 12 months (or longer) but the views held about Freo and Ross Lyon are steadfastly held in place. It's the same posters on both sides (mostly) with very few changing their minds. I'd be interested in hearing from the less vocal who have wanted change in the last 18 months, the likes of Lach72 electricfeel Cameron_K Admiral Byng nurries PurpleGreenRed E Shed prpl_jss wild side and many more were all vocal 12-18 months ago about booting Ross (along with a LOT of others (capitals for BlueE )). Any of them think we are on the right path now?

The right path does not mean extending RL's contract but that Freo (and RL) maybe had a timeline and rebuild in place for a few years and it is starting to match the timeframe they laid out in mid 2016.

Of course, we could easily tank from here as we have done for the last couple of seasons. That will make for some interesting reading too.

It's pretty much inevitable in a rebuild where there "will" be supporters baying for the coaches head, regardless if it's fair or not. And also people in general have the habit of overrating lists I think, and imo ours in the last few years wasn't good enough to be competitive, due to factors such as age, depth, spine, etc. and switching coaches wasn't going to change very much, even if I didn't think Lyon was up to it.

It was only really now where the state of our list is in such a good shape where continued failure could be more reasonably attributed to coaching and structure, as we clearly have the cattle to do it now. I actually feel like our rebuild has progressed much faster than I was expecting, aided by some fantastic recruits and development. But if we regress now back to 2017/2018 levels, then I think a change is needed.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting to see that we’ve started the season as ranked at the top in defence and saw a graphic tonight on the Foxtel coverage where we had the most forward pressure acts in Round 1 and Round 4 in the comp. I know that’s the kind of stuff RTB relishes but it’s a sign the players are responding to his messaging which I feel has been challenging for him in the last couple of seasons.

 

[PurpleEyes]

So after 5 rounds of 2019, Fremantle have the least points scored against indicating Ross Lyon has his defensive game plan back and working well.
And yet now when we win well against poor defensive teams (eg. GWS & Norths), I'm hearing how Ross Lyon has finally listened to his haters and is now playing a more attacking game plan. Even though when we play teams with strong defensive game plans, we still struggle to score.

Let me rewind a little ... when Lyon was appointed as Freo's Senior coach, replacing Harvey in 2011, I can remember saying to friends how annoyed I was, but I did acknowledge that Freo supporters (myself included) are very fickle and if Ross Lyon starts winning games, then we will all jump back on the band wagon. Well, I did just that, but what I didn't do was jump off once we stopped winning games. Even though my biggest disappointment was early 2016 when after a huge amount of negative press about Lyon's coaching and game plan (in 2015), Freo seemed to try to copy Hawthorn and we got smashed because of the lack of defense behind the ball when turnovers occurred (mostly from skill errors). Throw in some major injuries to key players and a rebuild was flagged and again I found myself annoyed. But I accepted that Freo's list was aging and something radical may be required to give us best possible chance of a premiership. Well now the list is looking better and Ross can once again show just how good his defensive game plans can be.

So, whatever you believe when it comes to Ross Lyon and his coaching, if Freo start winning games you'll mostly be jumping back on that band wagon and quickly forget the reasons why you ever jumped off. But that's all good with me ... after all, who am I to judge.

 

[Caldera]

I've been a critic, but I'm feeling optimistic so far this year so far. My expectations remain relatively low - double digit wins and percentage in the 90s. Right now we are on track to perform better than this, and that would be awesome. But if we fall short - similar to last year with 8 wins and dirge percentage, that would be hard to stomach.

 

[E Shed]

I've already been proactive about acknowledging the good things I've seen happening this year and in fact I came out after the Derby (to some ridicule) and said I could see signs things weren't far away from gelling & I could see some good footy ahead.

None of it changes the fact that the things I've criticised Lyon for in the past were valid at the time IMO. He was too defensive, too conservative and he is a control freak lacking imagination. He is process driven which is his strength (he constantly improves the details and trusts the process) but IMO sometimes to be the best I think football requires brilliance, flair, imagination.

But a creative, flexible intelligence, which I try to maintain demands adapting to new information and I'm seeing green shoots everywhere at the moment. I'm enjoying the footy again, which as I've said before, is all I really wanted - to be entertained. Its is only a game after all.

I'm against blind adherence to any fixed point of view. I will criticise when I perceive things can be improved and acknowledge when I think they're being done well.
What I'm not going to be is a blind cheerleader when things are obviously horrible or negative for the sake of it when things are getting better.
I call it as I see it & I admit when I've been wrong.

I don't think I was wrong before, I think things have changed, and I like it. Lyon seems to be capable of learning and adapting which is all I ask for really. Its showing he can be genuinely intelligent and not just a slave to an increasingly obsessive process driven way of working.

We have much sterner tests ahead when we start coming up against Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond when we'll find out more and if Lyon can't take Clarko with the state of the Hawks injuries then we never will.

 

[Patty_Moz]

I’ve been critical of Lyon in the past but also acknowledged he is a good coach. So a bit of an assessment of my current position.

Currently (excluding Rich vs Melb game) we are 3rd on the ladder, 7th for points for and 1st for points against and this has been typical of our Lyon era so I’m not yet convinced all that much has changed. However stats aside there are some indications we can play a more attacking brand of football but as in the past (I.e. ‘13 GF, ‘15 finals, multiple 100pt thrashing’s) our scoring can go to **** under pressure. IMO if we’re going to win a premiership we have to be top 2 scoring side.

So for 2019 to convince me we’ve really changed our defensive gameplan I’d like to see us finish above our ladder position on the points for ladder (don’t think we’ve done this under Lyon). Challenge for the week is kick 150pts against the bulldogs and we’re probably top of points for and against .

Lyon has proven he can develop youth and is rightly lauded for getting the best of less skilled, bit part players. However the flip side of this is that in his successful years he doesn’t give opportunities to young players and relies heavily on less skilled, experienced players for success and he holds onto experienced players until they are well past their prime (we have multiple examples of this during his time at Freo). Some people even say took very average lists to the gf’s but the truth is he just never really tried to replace the average bottom end of his sides by bringing young players in. So will we find out if guys like Valente, Bewley, Sturt or North are any better than Conca and Coyler over the coming years and does Ballas keep getting games after he recovers where it now seems pretty obvious there’s better options time will tell.

It’s good to be very competitive again so kudos to Lyon for playing his part.

 

[manpurple]

It’s never as good or as bad as it seems.

So the season is young. The benchmark remains 10 wins.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[theGav56]

I’ve been critical of Lyon in the past but also acknowledged he is a good coach. So a bit of an assessment of my current position.

Currently (excluding Rich vs Melb game) we are 3rd on the ladder, 7th for points for and 1st for points against and this has been typical of our Lyon era so I’m not yet convinced all that much has changed. However stats aside there are some indications we can play a more attacking brand of football but as in the past (I.e. ‘13 GF, ‘15 finals, multiple 100pt thrashing’s) our scoring can go to **** under pressure. IMO if we’re going to win a premiership we have to be top 2 scoring side.

So for 2019 to convince me we’ve really changed our defensive gameplan I’d like to see us finish above our ladder position on the points for ladder (don’t think we’ve done this under Lyon). Challenge for the week is kick 150pts against the bulldogs and we’re probably top of points for and against .

Lyon has proven he can develop youth and is rightly lauded for getting the best of less skilled, bit part players. However the flip side of this is that in his successful years he doesn’t give opportunities to young players and relies heavily on less skilled, experienced players for success and he holds onto experienced players until they are well past their prime (we have multiple examples of this during his time at Freo). Some people even say took very average lists to the gf’s but the truth is he just never really tried to replace the average bottom end of his sides by bringing young players in. So will we find out if guys like Valente, Bewley, Sturt or North are any better than Conca and Coyler over the coming years and does Ballas keep getting games after he recovers where it now seems pretty obvious there’s better options time will tell.

It’s good to be very competitive again so kudos to Lyon for playing his part.

I have no doubt that if the club finds itself in premiership mode there will be a reduction in debuts or games for emerging players. Premierships are built on stability, fielding your best 22 as far as possible, relying on players who know their roles and those of the players around them. Even now, once Blakely and SHill get back into the side, it will take some outstanding form for players as well credentialed as Valente and North to force their way in. That won't be getting any easier.

 

[PurpleEyes]

IMO if we’re going to win a premiership we have to be top 2 scoring side.

Why?
Richmond won in 2017 finishing 8th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.
Western Bulldogs won in 2016 finishing 12th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.

History shows that a good defense is far more important than the ability to attack and score highly when it comes to finals football.
I know it's popular to want Freo to score more, but is it really required or is it an opinion that has been pushed by the AFL and the media.

 

[Joao]

I'd probably be happy if we won a GF 1-0.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

Some well considered comments. Nothing wrong with withholding judgement until the fat lady gets through a couple of verses.

In the past it's been "Ross can do it" vs "Ross can't do it". Hopefully we're now getting to the point where we can assess whether Ross (and the rest of the club) are or aren't doing it. I think most of us agree that our list is now in good enough shape that barring a catastrophic run with injury we should be on an upward trajectory.

On defense the reality is there's only one footy out there so when the other mob have it defense is how you stop them scoring and get it back. Of course once you do get it back you need to hang onto it and get some value for effort. Sadly the other bastards want to get in the way and stop you playing beautiful footy.

I watched Richmond v Melbourne and the commentary muppets raved about Richmond's pressure. I found it a pretty average game to watch and Melbourne were mediocre opposition. There's a lot of preconception about teams (and coaches) and the fact Richmond won a flag has somehow made them something to aspire despite them managing a whole 85 points from 71 inside 50s last night.

I've always thought Ross could do it with the right list. I think we're close to having what we need and more importantly the list is young enough that we should be set up for an extended tilt at a flag.

 

[tacopavlich]

None of it changes the fact that the things I've criticised Lyon for in the past were valid at the time IMO. He was too defensive, too conservative and he is a control freak lacking imagination. He is process driven which is his strength (he constantly improves the details and trusts the process) but IMO sometimes to be the best I think football requires brilliance, flair, imagination.

But a creative, flexible intelligence, which I try to maintain demands adapting to new information and I'm seeing green shoots everywhere at the moment. I'm enjoying the footy again, which as I've said before, is all I really wanted - to be entertained. Its is only a game after all.

I'm against blind adherence to any fixed point of view. I will criticise when I perceive things can be improved and acknowledge when I think they're being done well.

While those criticisms of Lyon have merit and are clearly most observable in 2015, there seems to be a mindset where coaching skill is an absolute quality, innate in a person where either they have it or don't. Hardwick is a good example where a coach originally with many flaws has grown into an exceptional leader, and also showing that it can take more than one season to do so. I don't think Lyon was given enough patience particularly when I believe he was more than deserving of it to show that he could adapt, learn and grow as a tactician.

Lyons method was rigid, process driven and defensive but through 2013 - 2015 it was clearly working. But now it's not the way forward and fans examining this and advocating for change is completely valid. But the rhetoric that Lyon is incapable of critical introspection, blind conviction to methods regardless of evidence to the extent he deserved to be sacked as early as 2017 according to some is what I don't agree with.

 

[raffrox]

I've checked out of this thread largely because all I really wanted to see was proof that Ross and our style of play had evolved. I've seen that I think so now its about time to consolidate this. Expectations increase but not to a crazy level. 10 wins would be great but I think at our current level of play that could be slightly higher.

More forward options (Hogan, Lobb, Matera hitting the score board, Tabs being back) has let Walters run through the middle more which has worked well so far and the 6-6-6 suits big bodied mids who can win the clearance and give the forwards a chance. This has meant Mundy has been spending more time in the middle (we don't need him forward this year either) and he's been great. Our best player is a big bodied contested ball winning monster which helps.

So basically we have been utilising what we've got a bit better and it's showing. Some will say that this was always coming but I couldn't see it. Now that I can I'm happy to see what happens next and enjoy watching us play a bit more.

 

[Patty_Moz]

I have no doubt that if the club finds itself in premiership mode there will be a reduction in debuts or games for emerging players. Premierships are built on stability, fielding your best 22 as far as possible, relying on players who know their roles and those of the players around them. Even now, once Blakely and SHill get back into the side, it will take some outstanding form for players as well credentialed as Valente and North to force their way in. That won't be getting any easier.

Sure valid point. But are you suggesting we run with the best 22-25 we have atm and they’re good enough for a premiership? I’m not yet 100% convinced and would always be looking to improve the bottom end of our 22. Also I don’t want a repeat of the cliff we jumped off in ‘16 without even winning anything.

If we get close but don’t win it do you think no changes should be made to preserve stability? It is a tough question.

It made me chuckle this week theGav56 you’re very pro Lyon and I’m more towards the con but I agree (I’m pretty sure it was your post) Lyons contract should be decided after the bye next year.

 

[Kram]

He really needs to win about half our games at least for a pass mark imo.