Autopsy Round 1, 2024: Geelong v St.Kilda *COLLARD, WILSON DEBUT*

[HunterClarksHeadband]

Midfield non existent last night. Higgins too slow and not in the right spots enough for my liking - Butler my preference.
Henry as an inside mid? He weighs 4kg against the big bodied mids of Geelong. Had a chance to take it - simply not good enough.

The Stocker incident almost had me bashed by about 4 geelong rats but I'll take it to barrack for my club lmao what a shocker. Might try nab some tickets amongst the Saints fans next trip to the cattery fmd

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

JB third third ranked player on the ground in the Dees game. No Sincs, no Gresh, no Billings maybe we actually missed them?

Yes and last week Billings got two possessions TOTAL. Melbourne can have him Hopefully they will also take Jones at the end of the year too

 

[Saintbloke]

I don't reckon Lyon used the team well the other night, and it cost us a couple of goals IMO

 

[pebblesofsand]

His draft year stats suggests he very much is.

“Woodville-West Torrens prospect has pieced together a strong junior career which has included representing South Australia at the National Championships and winning a SANFL U18 Premiership with the Eagles in 2021. Having announced himself to recruiters last season when he booted 25 goals and averaged 23.3 disposals as a bottom-ager, Phillipou has taken his game to the next level this year, pushing his name into top ten consideration in the process.“

Suggest you let an elite coaching group handle the kid and make the decisions. Not your off the cuff opinion born from frustration at a result that was always the most likely outcome.

Sorry Stavro but everything suggests that ATM he is still a fwd/mid just as his draft profile states. I have seen nothing to suggest he provides sufficient value to be played as a full time mid. 12 possessions and 3 clearances confirms that.

If you're happy losing games because we play players in positions to which they aren't currently suited that's fine. I'd prefer we win.

The problem with the current structures is straight forward. If they don't play Phillipou as a mid where do they play him and who do they leave out?

King, Membrey, Higgins, Butler pick themselves in the fwd half. Owens has to play forward since they need him to ruck so he can't play as a mid as well. That leaves one spot for Sharman or Phillipou.

As we saw on Saturday when needed an extra tall in defence the only player we could turn to was Sharman which is exactly the reason why I suggested last week that I'd have used Sharman as the "swing" player who could fill in around the ground as required.

Do that then enables you to play Phillipou and Owens as rotating fwd/mids rather than expect a kid with 25 games under his belt to hold his own as a full time mid.

So there's the basis for my "off the cuff" comment, whats yours other than - oh we were gonna lose anyway so lets play the kids.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Jones missed the practice games in concussion protocols.

He is also a player known for breaking down. You don’t want to throw him into an AFL match cold.

Fair enough but surely we can do better than someone not match ready.
Just seems against what RTB says when he talks about someone that has ticked all the boxes.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

What about when Hawkins got pinged for a throw and had a huge sook about it. Then they show the replay and it's the most obvious throw you've ever seen. He is such a sooky unlikeable player.

Also another whinge, Atkins definitely held onto Henry in that critical last centre bounce.

I saw quite a few throws that weren't paid, Hawkins did it a couple of times.

 

[saintmike65]

Is that the one where Henry just stood there and waited for it while the Geelong player attacked the ball?
Either way, we'd rather sub a guy out for a missed kick (of which there were dozens) over a guy who barely moved and was clearly under done?

Playing devils advocate, I’m glad Seb was held accountable enough to be subbed off.
I was concerned that he’d get an armchair ride due to being in the leadership group.
Honestly, we’ll not progress enough with a combination of Steele, Ross & Crouch…hopefully Dow, Phillipou & Windhager can help!

 

[saintmike65]

Haven’t had a chance to watch the game yet and just saw that cold - that is an absolutely disgraceful decision - no understanding of the game!

Honestly, the mind boggles!!

 

[saintmike65]

Exactly why he shouldnt play through the midfield. His kicking is ok except when running at full pace. He can still run so use him on a wing and give Byrnes the opportunity as a mid, he did really well in the practice game.

He’s been tried unsuccessfully on a wing, besides we have better options there!

 

[The Punter]

Thoughts:

• as far as the St Kilda fans are concerned, the sleeping giant has awoken. Last year v Geelong was the first truly great St Kilda crowd in a long while, and the final was one too. I was at the St Kilda end on Saturday and it was noisy. The Geelong fans only woke up in the last quarter.
• I thought Wilson was quiet but he snags two second half goals and how he got the last one (outrunning everyone to get on the end of the best kick of the night from King) tells you all you need to know about how valuable he will be.
• I agree with some others that it absolutely needs to be an Owens/Phillipou rotation through midfield and half-forward.
• Henry looked really dangerous at the ground. It was an almost game from him.
• I didn't see anything to suggest our forward efficiency has improved (scores from entry percentage be damned, it was almost all hard work to score)
• Great to see Membrey kick the first goal

 

[The Cobra]

Sorry Stavro but everything suggests that ATM he is still a fwd/mid just as his draft profile states. I have seen nothing to suggest he provides sufficient value to be played as a full time mid. 12 possessions and 3 clearances confirms that.

If you're happy losing games because we play players in positions to which they aren't currently suited that's fine. I'd prefer we win.

The problem with the current structures is straight forward. If they don't play Phillipou as a mid where do they play him and who do they leave out?

King, Membrey, Higgins, Butler pick themselves in the fwd half. Owens has to play forward since they need him to ruck so he can't play as a mid as well. That leaves one spot for Sharman or Phillipou.

As we saw on Saturday when needed an extra tall in defence the only player we could turn to was Sharman which is exactly the reason why I suggested last week that I'd have used Sharman as the "swing" player who could fill in around the ground as required.

Do that then enables you to play Phillipou and Owens as rotating fwd/mids rather than expect a kid with 25 games under his belt to hold his own as a full time mid.

So there's the basis for my "off the cuff" comment, whats yours other than - oh we were gonna lose anyway so lets play the kids.

Pretty much agree with all this re Pou - he may well become an elite mid with time but at the moment is way off it & given our midfield deficiencies Im just not sure we can carry him while he learns his trade.

He lacks explosiveness, which is our Achilles heel with our midfield group (Henry notwithstanding).

Just because he was a good U18 mid doesn’t mean much at the moment - at AFL level the best of the best are in the midfield with hardened bodies - it’s bloody tough, fast & furious in there! Very few first or second years can cut it in there (a few exceptions like a Judd or Bont - superstars!). Now often they might start on a HBF (I think Daicos (superstar) started there?) and get their feet and became a mid.

Happy for Pou to get midfield minutes when we are playing weaker teams, or well on top, for experience.

 

[Otiman]

Happy for Pou to get midfield minutes when we are playing weaker teams, or well on top, for experience.

It's a decision for development, not to win games. But we (the club) needs to understand if it's better for his development, having him struggle as a midfielder, as a gun HFF, or build his stoppage skills at VFL level like Windy did last year.

What does it do for his confidence if Garcia starts outperforming him in the middle, and Wilson is kicking goals and getting 20+ a week off half forward.

I expect he'll get a good 5-6 game run at it and we reassess then.

 

[stavro#4]

Sorry Stavro but everything suggests that ATM he is still a fwd/mid just as his draft profile states. I have seen nothing to suggest he provides sufficient value to be played as a full time mid. 12 possessions and 3 clearances confirms that.

If you're happy losing games because we play players in positions to which they aren't currently suited that's fine. I'd prefer we win.

The problem with the current structures is straight forward. If they don't play Phillipou as a mid where do they play him and who do they leave out?

King, Membrey, Higgins, Butler pick themselves in the fwd half. Owens has to play forward since they need him to ruck so he can't play as a mid as well. That leaves one spot for Sharman or Phillipou.

As we saw on Saturday when needed an extra tall in defence the only player we could turn to was Sharman which is exactly the reason why I suggested last week that I'd have used Sharman as the "swing" player who could fill in around the ground as required.

Do that then enables you to play Phillipou and Owens as rotating fwd/mids rather than expect a kid with 25 games under his belt to hold his own as a full time mid.

So there's the basis for my "off the cuff" comment, whats yours other than - oh we were gonna lose anyway so lets play the kids.

Forward/mid … so he is a midfielder?

This mental gymnastics you are doing here is unbelievable. The kid is a midfielder that will pinch hit forward.

It isn’t fair to be blaming him for not having a big impact in game 25. He will look better when Dow/Clark/Sincs are in there supporting him. He will get better with games. he will get better when he is attending more then the 6 centre bounce attendances he had on Saturday night.

To his credit he also had 20 pressure acts. He also spent most of his time defending with 85% of his possessions coming in the back half.

let’s pick this discussion up again at the bye.

 

[sammm]

I fully expected to beat the Cats , but taking every thing into account with the new inclusions into the team , playing away and team adjusting to game plan you can give them a excuse why they never performed.
The thing that hurt me the most is our midfield was the same and like we have said before if we can't fix it we are in trouble.

i fully expected us to lose the game, i was relieved that it only by 7 points. i don't have much faith in winning against collingwood either. but i do hope im wrong.

 

[Ads734]

On the Pou I will keep defending him till I die. A few things, he started the game really well. ^ touches looked strong in the air and a couple clearances. Obviously he dropped off as we know.

People think that a transition into the midfield happans in the space of a few weeks or a month. It does not. For those saying he does not have speed, you are wrong. He does accelerate and he has good hands. A the moment I personally think he is just trying to find the balance between defending his man and finding the ball. The other thing I would love to see from him is finding some easier possessions. At the moment it looks like he is fighting for every posession.

However, don't think that every contest, stoppage centre bounce that he is in will not be another step forward in his development.

Also, despite how 'bad' our midfield is, we actually won the clearances... I have full faith that once it clicks for Pou it will click. He just needs to get over 25 touches once and itll be all over.

 

[The Punter]

On the Pou I will keep defending him till I die. A few things, he started the game really well. ^ touches looked strong in the air and a couple clearances. Obviously he dropped off as we know.

People think that a transition into the midfield happans in the space of a few weeks or a month. It does not. For those saying he does not have speed, you are wrong. He does accelerate and he has good hands. A the moment I personally think he is just trying to find the balance between defending his man and finding the ball. The other thing I would love to see from him is finding some easier possessions. At the moment it looks like he is fighting for every posession.

However, don't think that every contest, stoppage centre bounce that he is in will not be another step forward in his development.

Also, despite how 'bad' our midfield is, we actually won the clearances... I have full faith that once it clicks for Pou it will click. He just needs to get over 25 touches once and itll be all over.

On the clearances, often it's about the quality. And we lost the centre bounce clearances but won around the ground.

 

[The Cobra]

It's a decision for development, not to win games. But we (the club) needs to understand if it's better for his development, having him struggle as a midfielder, as a gun HFF, or build his stoppage skills at VFL level like Windy did last year.

What does it do for his confidence if Garcia starts outperforming him in the middle, and Wilson is kicking goals and getting 20+ a week off half forward.

I expect he'll get a good 5-6 game run at it and we reassess then.

I hear you but if Garcia starts out performing him in the middle & Wilson gets 20+ off half forward as first year players fantastic- couldn’t be happier!

Pou can go back to Sandy, play as a midfielder, learn the trade, get 30+ each week and knock the door down a la Windy last year.

To use the cricket analogy - even Ricky Ponting got dropped from the Test team - came back a fair player!

 

[The Cobra]

On the Pou I will keep defending him till I die. A few things, he started the game really well. ^ touches looked strong in the air and a couple clearances. Obviously he dropped off as we know.

People think that a transition into the midfield happans in the space of a few weeks or a month. It does not. For those saying he does not have speed, you are wrong. He does accelerate and he has good hands. A the moment I personally think he is just trying to find the balance between defending his man and finding the ball. The other thing I would love to see from him is finding some easier possessions. At the moment it looks like he is fighting for every posession.

However, don't think that every contest, stoppage centre bounce that he is in will not be another step forward in his development.

Also, despite how 'bad' our midfield is, we actually won the clearances... I have full faith that once it clicks for Pou it will click. He just needs to get over 25 touches once and itll be all over.

You make some very good points - but you could also use the exact same argument to learn at Sandy for a period - dominate - & then straight back in. Though to be fair with our availabilities at the moment maybe not so easy.

 

[Joffaboy]

Haven’t had a chance to watch the game yet and just saw that cold - that is an absolutely disgraceful decision - no understanding of the game!

Was out Saturday night and haven't watched it either, saw this incident.
1) Dangerfield was not trying to injure Stocker, he tried to miss him, accident.
2) Stocker was first to thr ball and was kneed in the back, his free every day of the week.
The thing that concerned me is the look of a clearly injured Stocker being helped off the ground for obviously illegal contact and there is a shot of the player who caused the injury holding the ball because he was rewarded with a free kick.
The optics were disgraceful and anyone new to our game with have thought it a ridiculous sport.
Saints should issue a please explain to the AFL for this disgrace.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ads734]

On the clearances, often it's about the quality. And we lost the centre bounce clearances but won around the ground.

correct, you could argue that the centre clearances have a higher level of importance due to the time it takes to take inside 50, and also the fact that there are just less of them to begin with. However you could also say that defensive 50 clearances matter because they save goals.

 

[Ads734]

You make some very good points - but you could also use the exact same argument to learn at Sandy for a period - dominate - & then straight back in. Though to be fair with our availabilities at the moment maybe not so easy.

I am not disputing the fact that there may be some bennifit for playing him at sandy. However, as Ross stated, he has ut in the hard in pre season. Other mids were not available. Also I though we all areed that for last year and this year it was essential that we move guys like ross jones and Crouch out of the midfield. Well, either you have a ready made midfielder who can replace their output (Unlikley) or you press on with the pups and understand that it may not work out straight away and it may be 3 steps forward two steps back.

 

[gringo2011]

Yet the coaches keep throwing him into the midfield...? I don't believe he has ever been a natural or gifted midfielder he got by on hard work in poor teams. He is still best 23 IMO, they just need to use him differently ala Hodge in his latter years.

Danger played 19 games averaging 15 disposals at his age. You fast track by throwing them in. He's a better investment than Seb Ross is the point. Ross will get 20 possessions but that probably as good as he's going to get from now on. If Phillipou takes a huge step after a dozen games he might just be the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

[gringo2011]

If you want to win AFL games then Sandringham is where you "learn" to be a mid.

Yet to crack 20 possessions in a game.

Not a midfielder.

He's hardly played as a mid. 20 possessions as a HF isn't too bad.

 

[saintmike65]

Was out Saturday night and haven't watched it either, saw this incident.
1) Dangerfield was not trying to injure Stocker, he tried to miss him, accident.
2) Stocker was first to thr ball and was kneed in the back, his free every day of the week.
The thing that concerned me is the look of a clearly injured Stocker being helped off the ground for obviously illegal contact and there is a shot of the player who caused the injury holding the ball because he was rewarded with a free kick.
The optics were disgraceful and anyone new to our game with have thought it a ridiculous sport.
Saints should issue a please explain to the AFL for this disgrace.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

There’ll be no please explain..our club has little to no voice due to us being financially propped up by the AFL!
The sooner we get out of debt the better..

 

[saintmike65]

correct, you could argue that the centre clearances have a higher level of importance due to the time it takes to take inside 50, and also the fact that there are just less of them to begin with. However you could also say that defensive 50 clearances matter because they save goals.

We’ve been an ordinary centre bounce clearance team for a long time..