Preview Round 10, 2024: St.Kilda v Fremantle - Marvel Stadium - Saturday 18th May, 7.30pm AEST

[Cairnsman]

It’s time to move past Max King as a forward and put him on the wing or in the ruck. He looked unreal in the Collingwood game getting up the ground. Looked a natural fit for him, need more of it!

I tend to agree, how long does Ross persist with him as our Key Tall Forward before conceding?

If we get most of our first choice players back into the side over the next few weeks and he’s still struggling to show he can be the weapon in the forward line then is that when Ross decides he’s run out of excuses and trials him up the ground more, maybe even in the Ruck?

 

[dewah07]

Well hello dewah07 I can't remember the last time I saw you on this board

Is this a return or just passing by?

passing through. My time being an active poster is well and truly over .

I'm happy to lurk in the shadows

 

[Cairnsman]

If Max has no forward craft (and never will), and is only useful to us if he does get forward craft, that is a rather large trade piece right there and little more.

On the other hand, perhaps time (and it's been time for a while) for a proper forward coach.

Do you think Harvey isn’t instructing Max he needs to lead more, crash packs more, and not sit out the back of packs looking for the cheap jump at the ball from behind the play?

I’d also be certain he’s instructing him to chase and tackle. Crickey if Max can read them surely he knows what a ZERO looks like on a stat sheet next to tackle and defensive effort and pressure acts.

Not sure coaching is Max’s issue although the Pou probably disagrees

 

[SG34]

Someone said earlier, he had a paddock to lead into within F50 in the Q4 last week, with Wood set up to kick into it, but instead Max chose to back into a minefield full of big defenders.

Now the charge is, 'Lacks forward craft'.

But we know (and have been told ceaselessly) that Max is a pack type of player, whereas Ben is a leading type. ow if that is so, given his body is already battered like a 32 year old, isn't it time to say, 'OK, enough is enough, you WERE one of the top prospects to be a goal square mark in the league, but that time has passed. Instead of being the top 3 champ that almost made it, it is time to concede, get some running into the legs and perhaps become a second string leading tyor of player. Top 3 no more. Maybe top 30, or top 50.

 

[busso_mick]

If Max has no forward craft (and never will), and is only useful to us if he does get forward craft, that is a rather large trade piece right there and little more.

On the other hand, perhaps time (and it's been time for a while) for a proper forward coach.

He has certainly got the ability to be a top level AFL player. When he came into the AFL he looked uninhibited and enjoying the game. Now opposition coaches put in a lot of work to stop his influence on the game and the game has got a lot harder for him. One thing I note about Max is when he does kick a goal his celebration is very muted, he looks like playing footy is a burden. Maybe a new forward coach or a change in position might be the catalyst for him to start enjoying the game again. Maybe a spell in the ruck just to get into the game could be an option as well.

 

[The Punter]

Do you think Harvey isn’t instructing Max he needs to lead more, crash packs more, and not sit out the back of packs looking for the cheap jump at the ball from behind the play?

I’d also be certain he’s instructing him to chase and tackle. Crickey if Max can read them surely he knows what a ZERO looks like on a stat sheet next to tackle and defensive effort and pressure acts.

Not sure coaching is Max’s issue although the Pou probably disagrees

If merely saying to someone what they needed to do was sufficient, we'd all be capable coaches. Teachers as well.

What methods are being employed to get Max (as well as the entire forward line) to play how the coaches want them to play? What instructions are being given as to what to do when an opponent (remember those, the ones trying to stop you succeed) takes away what you want to do?

There's a simplicity to much non-professional analysis - the "just kick the bloody thing" school of punditry.

It's the coaching staff's job to get the players to execute the game plan. The best coaches manage to do that. I bet all of them make clear their expectations. The gap between those two things is what we need to identify and address.

 

[Saintbloke]

Someone said earlier, he had a paddock to lead into within F50 in the Q4 last week, with Wood set up to kick into it, but instead Max chose to back into a minefield full of big defenders.

Now the charge is, 'Lacks forward craft'.

But we know (and have been told ceaselessly) that Max is a pack type of player, whereas Ben is a leading type. ow if that is so, given his body is already battered like a 32 year old, isn't it time to say, 'OK, enough is enough, you WERE one of the top prospects to be a goal square mark in the league, but that time has passed. Instead of being the top 3 champ that almost made it, it is time to concede, get some running into the legs and perhaps become a second string leading tyor of player. Top 3 no more. Maybe top 30, or top 50.

It's pretty obvious that Max is a tall hall forward flaker, not a FF or CHF so no use trying to get him to play as a key position player- it's not his natural game.

 

[Cairnsman]

If merely saying to someone what they needed to do was sufficient, we'd all be capable coaches. Teachers as well.

That was kind of my point, in part at least.

But for those using the eye test, how is a coach responsible for Max refusing to do the team thing and lacking resilience and getting thrown off his game all too easily when something doesn't go his way and refusing to tackle, chase and defend.

A player beat him in the contest only 1m in front of him last weekend and ran off him without Max even attempting to chase...is that the coaches fault?

He refuses to lead and and crash packs preferring to sit behind the play to jump at the ball from behind the pack for the cheap lazy option. How is that a coaches fault.

His stats for tackles, defensive pressure and pressure acts is Zero usually.

That's attitude. Not Coaching.

 

[The Punter]

That was kind of my point, in part at least.

But for those using the eye test, how is a coach responsible for Max refusing to do the team thing and lacking resilience and getting thrown off his game all too easily when something doesn't go his way and refusing to tackle, chase and defend.

A player beat him in the contest only 1m in front of him last weekend and ran off him without Max even attempting to chase...is that the coaches fault?

He refuses to lead and and crash packs preferring to sit behind the play to jump at the ball from behind the pack for the cheap lazy option. How is that a coaches fault.

His stats for tackles, defensive pressure and pressure acts is Zero usually.

That's attitude. Not Coaching.

Ross has repeated over and over and over again he coaches effort. So by his own admission, the player's effort and attitude is the responsibility of the coaching staff.

That doesn't mean it's not the responsibility of Max as well. But by hook or by crook, it is the coaching staff's job to improve Max's attitude. I'm not absolving Max. I suspect you are absolving the coaches.

 

[Mat Mann]

pls stop discussing mods and mod actions, if you have issues with a mod or modding, PM the mods, or go higher.

see site rules here

specifically

1. Don't be a whinger.
   • Mods don't get everything right all the time. Different boards have some local policy and rule variations.
   • If you get a warning or a suspension don't fly off the handle. You'll only get yourself in deeper.
   • Open a Private Conversation with the board moderators, make your case clearly and respectfully, and you will be listened to. Chuck a tanty and you might get the flick.
   • Creating new user accounts to get around bans or restrictions WILL increase your suspension or get you booted off the site.
   • If you are not happy with your response from a moderator, contact Admin here.

 

[The Punter]

pls stop discussing mods and mod actions, if you have issues with a mod or modding, PM the mods, or go higher.

see site rules here

specifically

I have a question I ask in good faith:

is there a public place on this site where the rules of the site and the performance of moderators can be discussed?

 

[SG34]

Ross has repeated over and over and over again he coaches effort. So by his own admission, the player's effort and attitude is the responsibility of the coaching staff.

That doesn't mean it's not the responsibility of Max as well. But by hook or by crook, it is the coaching staff's job to improve Max's attitude. I'm not absolving Max. I suspect you are absolving the coaches.

Max IS trying.
It is not his nature to be all out 'balls-to-the-wall' and with that frame, he had better be in the pancake business.

I take back what I said earlier, becaase I don't want to write him off.

He is on a bit of hiding to nothing and he must be under incredible pressure.

I fear he might just breakdown totally, reconsider, and regretfully break ranks, and do the Plugger-Hall-Frankin-Daniher thing - i.e. move to Sydney or Brisbane.

Tough spot.

Come on Max.

But let us encourage a lead!

And by the way, I thought he was very unlucky not to be paid that grab in Q4 last week. HAd he been paid and converetd, different story.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

pls stop discussing mods and mod actions, if you have issues with a mod or modding, PM the mods, or go higher.

see site rules here

specifically

“mids”

 

[Cairnsman]

Ross has repeated over and over and over again he coaches effort. So by his own admission, the player's effort and attitude is the responsibility of the coaching staff.

That doesn't mean it's not the responsibility of Max as well. But by hook or by crook, it is the coaching staff's job to improve Max's attitude. I'm not absolving Max. I suspect you are absolving the coaches.

Nah absolutely not absolving anyone, I know with great certainty that being drawn into a game of apportioning blame is a race to the bottom.

As I say I can only use the eye test to get a feel for the problem, the solution is much harder to determine from the cheap seats.

We are a club famous for scapegoating coaches. It looks like we are going down that path once again.

 

[Mat Mann]

I have a question I ask in good faith:

is there a public place on this site where the rules of the site and the performance of moderators can be discussed?

I don't think so, but if you want a discussion, pm Chief Wosh or any other senior mod and they will be happy to talk I'm sure, our actions are not without oversight

 

[littlecreatures]

That was kind of my point, in part at least.

But for those using the eye test, how is a coach responsible for Max refusing to do the team thing and lacking resilience and getting thrown off his game all too easily when something doesn't go his way and refusing to tackle, chase and defend.

A player beat him in the contest only 1m in front of him last weekend and ran off him without Max even attempting to chase...is that the coaches fault?

He refuses to lead and and crash packs preferring to sit behind the play to jump at the ball from behind the pack for the cheap lazy option. How is that a coaches fault.

His stats for tackles, defensive pressure and pressure acts is Zero usually.

That's attitude. Not Coaching.

I think you should cut him some slack here Cairsnman. He’s 2 games back from what seems like a knee injury serious enough to hamper his ability to cover the ground. He played 11 games last year for a return of 28 goals throughout persistent and serious shoulder injuries. 52 goals year before that from 22 games.

It’s pretty clear Max is more capable than his last 2 games, but no need to sink the knife in just yet. I absolutely get the criticism but no need to keep it on rinse and repeat continuously, give him a chance to pull some consistent footy together. They’re humans not robots.

 

[The Punter]

Nah absolutely not absolving anyone, I know with great certainty that being drawn into a game of apportioning blame is a race to the bottom.

As I say I can only use the eye test to get a feel for the problem, the solution is much harder to determine from the cheap seats.

We are a club famous for scapegoating coaches. It looks like we are going down that path once again.

Apportioning responsibility and scapegoating aren't the same thing. We have a wonderful coach of midfielders and midfields in Harvey - only he's coaching the forwards and someone new to line coaching is doing the mids. It might bear fruit, but they have responsibility for the performance of the areas which they coach.

 

[BrutThough]

The Boss isn’t very cuddly today. Extremely vocal and running the drills for a change.

 

[gringo2011]

Can't decide if I'm going. I might.

I feel like I'd be head butting a beehive though.

I'd be like "sh*t, that was painful."

Someone would say "of course it was painful, you idiot."

But yep... might be there

I've got out of the habit at the moment. I've only been to the Pies match so far. That weird lead in really made it easy to get out of the rhythm and then we started to go badly and it's a softer landing when you're warm and full of beer on the couch.

It's the worst value I've ever had from a membership. At the moment I'm not vibing with the fixture. Might not make another match at this rate.

 

[beside the seaside]

I've got out of the habit at the moment. I've only been to the Pies match so far. That weird lead in really made it easy to get out of the rhythm and then we started to go badly and it's a softer landing when you're warm and full of beer on the couch.

It's the worst value I've ever had from a membership. At the moment I'm not vibing with the fixture. Might not make another match at this rate.

You only went to the Pies game? Maybe you're our lucky charm!

 

[_Maximus_12]

Confidence is key with Max. Hard to get such when you’re in and out of the side with injury/suspension as confidence generally comes from doing.

At the moment he’s leaning on his strengths be, because he has affirmation that that works within what he’s confident doing. He’ll progressively start doing more (leading, engaging defenders at different times, doubling back, coming at the ball carrier etc) and subsequently gain confidence in doing so when he sees the outcome.

I think we should be reserving judgement until he plays 12 straight games.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I've got out of the habit at the moment. I've only been to the Pies match so far. That weird lead in really made it easy to get out of the rhythm and then we started to go badly and it's a softer landing when you're warm and full of beer on the couch.

It's the worst value I've ever had from a membership. At the moment I'm not vibing with the fixture. Might not make another match at this rate.

Feel ya , i will only be going Two more times and that's because they are 1.20 starts

 

[gringo2011]

The key difference.. both Jones and Philipou are not genuine mids.. Dow is..

Dow was drafted as a inside mid with burst..

Jones is a half back in juniors who is tough, not a genuine mid, we tried, but the result is telling.. just shows it’s difficult to turn a flanker to a genuine mid, don’t know why sides keep doing it.. we tried with Billings, Acres, Mckenzie, Clark, Coffield..

Philipou is a forward/mid, if he actually looked good in midfield, it may give me some more confidence.. but his stints there so far screams “getting lost, no impact”.. he calls himself a high impact per possession player, which translate to low numbers, but goals/assist, he is not even doing that at the moment.

What we need is mids that can win the ball first, then rack up possession at ease, bring in other teammates into the game.. not low possession long bomb sort of mids..

Dow looks like he'd struggle to get at touch at AFL level at the moment. If he can't win clearance he's an anchor, not like he can sit in a pocket or run the wing if he's having a bad game.

 

[Mat Mann]

“mids”

we need better ones, agreed

McCluggage or Brayshaw over LDU

I'd almost consider giving up 2+ FDP's and a monumental chunk of cash to get a Finn Callahan or any other young mid that has those elite qualities

 

[Sully111]

The Boss isn’t very cuddly today. Extremely vocal and running the drills for a change.

Good