Review Round 12 = Collingwood 82-100 Western Bulldogs

[Chameleon75]

The Freddy vs AJ debate is surprisingly passionate given the caliber of the players. Let’s be honest, they’re both dogsbodies. I would’ve gone Freddy myself, but I’m yet to see him play a decent game at afl level either. I doubt it would’ve made much difference if at all.

 

[Visions]

The first quarter with the shitful display of goalkicking set us back. Should have been at least 5 goals up with the simple shots missed everywhere.

Having both AJ and Frampton up forward together was never going to work, that's on the selectors.

Apart from Nick, no one else knew how to win a clearance.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

It's pretty clear you've made a hardline decision on Freddy and nothing is gonna change your opinion. But this is just plain wrong, and I'm amazed you'd defend the selection of Ash over Kreuger.

Kreuger is no world beater. And he isn't in great form in the VFL. And he will likely get injured in some new and novel way within 2 quarters of taking. But he's 100kg, genuine KPF height, and hits each contest with intent to kill somebody.

AJ is the size of a flanker and plays with less physicality than prime Ryan Lonie. He hasn't just played poorly in his three AFL outings this season, he's been as uncompetitive as anyone who has ever pulled on an AFL jumper. Seriously. He makes Adam Oxley at his worst look like Sir Scotty Burns by comparison. Something has gone horribly wrong with him, he's lost every ounce of his confidence he once had, he's just an absolute shadow of himself. I don't like to sink the boot in, but he was never the correct choice in this instance, and the way he played made that even more painfully obvious.

As for Freddy... if he gets a chance next week, all I ask is count the number of times he gets beaten. (You would have run out of fingers with Ash by quarter time tonight - he didn't compete and to be honest it looked he didn't care.) Kreugz might be limited, but he'd sooner kill himself with his kamikaze attack on the footy than let his man win a contest.

And before you ask - has he done this at AFL level?

Yes, in his only two injury-free games with us, against Adelaide and Brisbane in 2022, where he kicked 2 goals in each, tackled and competed with intent to hurt the opposition, and looked every bit a genuine KPF target.

And yes, he’ll probably get injured again.

And yes, he still would have been a better option than AJ.

Yeah Krueger needed to play

He can ruck and is genuine “key” height.

He may not have starred but he couldn’t have done worse than Ash and he would have allowed Frampton to stay back which probably saves us at least 2 goals in a game we lost by only 3 goals

It’s ok for posters to admit the coaches probably got a bit wrong tonight (not saying you, just generally). Fly and the coaching group are great but they’re not perfect. No one is. They make mistakes and tonight they made a few

 

[Mollythedolly]

Fly is the joke. Wake up or much pain ahead

I think you’ve got Fly well covered.

 

[domus]

It hurts to lose and draw the past two games when we were so good for so long. I am so proud of the Collingwood Footy Club. We just keep having a dip but my deepest frustration is based upon the fact that I think we are a better team than last year if we have all or most of our best up and running but injuries are going to derail this season and make a top four finish highly unlikely.

The biggest question over the summer was whether or not we could maintain the rage and still have the hunger for another tilt and the very clear answer is YES! But fate has intervened. And next year all of our older stars are one year closer to the end if not at the end of their careers as new kids begin to come into the side. I feel like this is our last chance for a genuine run at the flag before a mini rebuild takes place.

I hope I am wrong and we have another fairy tale run after the bye and storm into the four (terrifying the haters) and thrilling the masses and media once again. We can dream.

 

[robertg22]

My thoughts:

1. Another maybe game. I said at the start of the year, and after last week, that this is likely to be a nearly season. Top 4 is gone and we’ll be lucky to squeeze into the 8.
2. Twice in 2 weeks goal kicking has hurt us. Teams get momentum these days and it’s typically the team that capitalises the best that ends up winning the game.
3. Cooked or not, our 4th quarter efforts have been abysmal the last month or so. Personnel or not, the team needs to find a way to win, even if it means playing conservatively for patches in the preceding 3 quarters.
4. Noble showed why he was omitted for finals. Everyone makes errors but his tend to result in goals more often than not.
5. Johnson is a waste of space. Showed what he can do with a mark and kick to Sullivan in the 3rd, but other than that was anonymous. Similarly, Macrae is running out of t8me and excuses - one of the least effective players tonight who hasn’t shown enough at the level. If a team comes in for Macrae in the offseason they’ll do well not to lose their hand.
6. Free agency looms large. Open the chequebook and get Battle and Miller down back, LDU (if possible) and potentially gamble on a Lynch for a year or two. At least from tonight we had confirmati9n that Lobb is not the answer to anything.

Season is done, at least in any meaningful way. We’ll continue to have the odd shock result or win against the odds, but realistically we’re coming from a long way back. We’re a system team, so time to start experimenting gradually with some of the cogs in the system, even if it’s gradual.

I think this is a bit silly. I'd still back us to be close to making top 4. Long way to go and there's not a lot in it.

 

[domus]

Krueger looked good in the last quarter of the VFL game I watched. I think he's a definite starter next week hopefully with Reef and WHE as well.

 

[Pedro]

I think part of the answer to that is Kreuger over Johnson…

The whole Ash Johnson thing makes me sad. That kid has so much natural ability but lacks the intangibles to make it happen. Reminds me of the kids I played with who could have been anything if they didn't get introduced to beers and girls and pissed it all away. If he had a head on his shoulders he could be anything.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

The whole Ash Johnson thing makes me sad. That kid has so much natural ability but lacks the intangibles to make it happen. Reminds me of the kids I played with who could have been anything if they didn't get introduced to beers and girls and pissed it all away. If he had a head on his shoulders he could be anything.

I don’t know that it’s intangibles. A willingness to chase, harrass and tackle should be the easiest things to add to your bow.

I really hoped today would present a turning point - in a sense we had nothing to lose from giving him an opportunity. I hoped for both his sake and ours he could produce what he did last year against the Dogs and Dockers but he is playing like someone bereft of confidence and unwilling to show the intensity required.

 

[Finnishpie]

Spot on.
Krueger gives nothing more than Johnson. Probably less.

We just don’t have the players available to win.

I think Krueger is too hard to judge.

Johnson really needs to get some confidence. He could be a good role player at his best. At the moment he's a shadow of his self last year. Reckon he just played his last game for the pies.

I will say: I have no idea why they played Frampton forward. I said it before the game: he's a back man.

I would have played Howe forward. Even Moore.

 

[Apples]

I personally would have played Kreuger over Johnson but to suggest with any degree of certainty that he’d have done better tonight is just purely speculative guesswork. Especially given Johnson’s record at senior level is superior to Kreuger’s.

We did see Howe move forward in the last and the footy never got there so it was clearly a poor move, and if you’re suggesting we should have done it all game in order to send Frampton back to defence then who gives Cameron a chopout?

I'm suggesting the move should have been made at half time.

I don't understand Johnson's selection full stop. The guy plays OK in a star-studded team. In a team of kids, his lack of footy IQ, lack of defensive capabilities and inability to apply pressure was always going to be exposed. It was a mistake. It's not the end of the world, but surely we're allowed to have our opinions?

 

[brysie]

I think this is a bit silly. I'd still back us to be close to making top 4. Long way to go and there's not a lot in it.

If you factor our fixture and injuries in, I don’t think it’s silly at all.

How many games do you think will need to be won to make the 8? Fremantle, the Dogs and Gold Coast are all within striking distance of the 8 and Adelaide and Brisbane will each be 6 points behind us if they manage to win this weekend.

 

[sr36]

The Freddy vs AJ debate is surprisingly passionate given the caliber of the players. Let’s be honest, they’re both dogsbodies. I would’ve gone Freddy myself, but I’m yet to see him play a decent game at afl level either. I doubt it would’ve made much difference if at all.

I've got no idea what everyone is carrying on about with the selections and coaching moves. Howe was outstanding in defence - we would have lost by more if he was forward. The Shultz Joe's move was a big win. We just didn't have enough mids. Pendles being injured tipped us over the edge and despite Nick's magnificence they wore us down and slaughtered us around stoppage in the second half.

 

[FatherTime]

In hindsight I agree. We can all agree Johnson was a mistake but they gave him an opportunity. Feels like it was a 50/50 call and Kreuger didn't look outstanding in VFL despite three easy goals. If Reef is available I'm not sure Kreuger plays next week either.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

In fairness to Kreuger, he was playing in a team that was well beaten by the opposition.

 

[brysie]

I'm suggesting the move should have been made at half time.

I don't understand Johnson's selection full stop. The guy plays OK in a star-studded team. In a team of kids, his lack of footy IQ, lack of defensive capabilities and inability to apply pressure was always going to be exposed. It was a mistake. It's not the end of the world, but surely we're allowed to have our opinions?

Hopefully tonight stamps his papers. I would’ve preferred Kreuger as he could’ve chopped out in the ruck, allowing Frampton to play down back, but obviously that didn’t happen.

Regardless of the makeup of the team, Johnson’s lack of application and desire can’t be sustained at AFL level. It’s particularly galling that this was Ash’s chance to show some effort tonight and he failed to even do that.

 

[Jen2310]

Fly's presser:

Full post-match, R12: Magpies

Watch Collingwood’s press conference after round 12’s match against Western Bulldogs

www.afl.com.au

 

[lenny20]

Yeah Krueger needed to play

He can ruck and is genuine “key” height.

He may not have starred but he couldn’t have done worse than Ash and he would have allowed Frampton to stay back which probably saves us at least 2 goals in a game we lost by only 3 goals

It’s ok for posters to admit the coaches probably got a bit wrong tonight (not saying you, just generally). Fly and the coaching group are great but they’re not perfect. No one is. They make mistakes and tonight they made a few

Yeah aside from the differences in ability, at least Krueger is a huge body who loves the physical stuff.

AJ’s best footy was always as a leading, uncontested third forward, with Checkers and Cox occupying the key defenders. He was never a KPF, even in his best form. And his form right now is downright depressing. It’s painful watching the poor guy play.

As you say, the biggest upside of Freddy filling a KPF post would have been Frampton standing Darcy. That, and not having Lachie Schultz and Oleg Markov competing in the air against Liam Jones.

All that being said, I’m still the biggest fan of Fly you’ll ever meet, and I recognise that with this many injuries, the whole gameplan’s arse has to start falling out at some stage. You just can’t carry players the calibre/experience of AJ / Dean / Bytel / Macrae / Parker and expect to compete at AFL level. We did well to get as close as we did.

 

[KillerMagpies]

Too many players getting games that are clearly not up to it.
Cupboard bare.

 

[KillerMagpies]

Frampton playing FWD/Ruck… I’m about to flipping gouge my eyes out!!!!!
I can’t stand it!!!
Don’t weaken our strengths. Keep him back!!!!

 

[KillerMagpies]

John Noble

2

John Noble

Age

27

Ht

180cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.3

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

186.1

3star

D

14.2

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

149.7

3star

D

18.8

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

229.8

4star

provided a great impersonation of Jason Wild tonight.
WTF was that???
Did he play drunk?

 

[Pedro]

I don’t know that it’s intangibles. A willingness to chase, harrass and tackle should be the easiest things to add to your bow.

I really hoped today would present a turning point - in a sense we had nothing to lose from giving him an opportunity. I hoped for both his sake and ours he could produce what he did last year against the Dogs and Dockers but he is playing like someone bereft of confidence and unwilling to show the intensity required.

I was probably trying to say it in a nice way when I say "intangibles" That kid has the ability to be a quality AFL player. What he doesn't seem to have is the mindset to make it happen. Its frustrating see see a kid who really could be a quality player not get there because he doesn't seem to "want" it enough. I hope I'm not being harsh on him, but I really believe that he has the abilty, but clearly at this level, ability is not enough

 

[Jen2310]

 

[FatherTime]

I've got no idea what everyone is carrying on about with the selections and coaching moves. Howe was outstanding in defence - we would have lost by more if he was forward. The Shultz Joe's move was a big win. We just didn't have enough mids. Pendles being injured tipped us over the edge and despite Nick's magnificence they wore us down and slaughtered us around stoppage in the second half.

I suspect you are right that the midfield was the real problem, but the closeness of the scores would suggest that a better credentialed and performing player up forward, such as Kreuger, or Frampton down back could have turned the final result in our favour. Johnson was incredibly disappointing tonight. Subbing someone other than Noble may also have produced a different result. I don't think it's simply a matter of the midfield losing us the game.

 

[sr36]

Yeah Krueger needed to play

He can ruck and is genuine “key” height.

He may not have starred but he couldn’t have done worse than Ash and he would have allowed Frampton to stay back which probably saves us at least 2 goals in a game we lost by only 3 goals

It’s ok for posters to admit the coaches probably got a bit wrong tonight (not saying you, just generally). Fly and the coaching group are great but they’re not perfect. No one is. They make mistakes and tonight they made a few

Liam Jones would have made easy work of Krueger. Schultz worried the hell out of him - which took out a fair bit of his intercepting and he also kicked goals on him. The move was a big win. We just didn't convert enough early and Noble gave them too many freebies. And then they just wore down and got miles on top of the really shallow midfield that we had to select.

 

[brysie]

I suspect you are right that the midfield was the real problem, but the closeness of the scores would suggest that a better credentialed and performing player up forward, such as Kreuger, or Frampton down back could have turned the final result in our favour. Johnson was incredibly disappointing tonight. Subbing someone other than Noble may also have produced a different result. I don't think it's simply a matter of the midfield losing us the game.

A better credentialed or more competitive forward would’ve given a contest at half forward in that last quarter, allowing us to gain field position, rather than just sustain constant entries into our defensive 50.