Autopsy Round 16, 2024: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

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luca77 said:
In the ones?
Click to expand...
Mmm
It’s an interesting idea
Plucking at straws maybe?
Does Max have traits and the discipline? To be a fullback.

We saw Caminiti down back..he was outpointed a few times by their forwards, but he did get a few grabs.

Sharman was OKish last season for a few games.

It would might help with the shoulder
And would relieve pressure to shoot straight

But;
1) he’s a booming kick, and like McKay at Carlton, he might get his true boot back
2) he’s a marker naturally and good off the deck - perhaps that would help down back but there is an opportunity cost
3) Who else can kick our goals? Sharman was brilliant when he came on, and that rocket handball to someone who goaled, but he can go missing..Max is always a factor up forward, even when he’s having a shocker
 
edgie said:
Forgive me for still being here but I have an opinion on Max King.

Compared to his brother, he's obviously suffering. Both have had injuries but Max's have been more frequent but less severe. Ben to my knowledge just the one bad one, the ACL.

But one of the bigger reasons I think in the form difference is the teams. Since Max started playing for St Kilda, Saints have been competitive, if not real threatening. They've been around the mark and made finals a couple times. Therefore they attract more attention than Gold Coast who have been awful til this season. Ben King was probably not copping the attention and heat from defenders and pressure that Max has been. Teams might not have put as much work in to stopping the Suns as they do to the Saints in those years, and in a way that allowed Ben a bit of a free hit at it, some junktime confidence boosters that he could build on. Max has never had that chance. Max has never got his confidence flowing. Not as much junktime in St Kilda games either way due to the low scoring nature of the contests.
Click to expand...
I’ll tell you the real difference mate, as Kane Cornes said this morning he’s never had any support.

Ben King (pick 6), plays alongside Jack Lukosius (pick 2) and Jed Walter (pick 3).

Heck, he even has two big lumber jack who don’t do much in Casboult and Day but they provide a chop out.

I think our small forwards are actually really good in Higgins and Butler, what we need is someone there to help Max take it to ground. He’s only 23, he’ll be fine in the long run but he’s screaming out for some support.
 

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Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Positional change? Ross alluded to more ruck work. Making him play more like how Daniher does and really push him up the ground a lot more (almost play him on the wing) might get him into the game a heap more.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.
 
Nutsngum said:
Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.
Click to expand...
Bravo!
 
Nutsngum said:
Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.
Click to expand...
Spot on, the bagging of him is so over the top. Imagine trading him and watching him dominate for another side. FML.

We have the worst midfield in the competition and he is asked to play a lone role, he is set up to fail, despite that he has played HEAPS of good games for us.
 
mighty_sainters said:
I’ll tell you the real difference mate, as Kane Cornes said this morning he’s never had any support.

Ben King (pick 6), plays alongside Jack Lukosius (pick 2) and Jed Walter (pick 3).

Heck, he even has two big lumber jack who don’t do much in Casboult and Day but they provide a chop out.

I think our small forwards are actually really good in Higgins and Butler, what we need is someone there to help Max take it to ground. He’s only 23, he’ll be fine in the long run but he’s screaming out for some support.
Click to expand...

What exactly is Tim Membrey doing?
 
SG34 said:
Mmm
It’s an interesting idea
Plucking at straws maybe?
Does Max have traits and the discipline? To be a fullback.

We saw Caminiti down back..he was outpointed a few times by their forwards, but he did get a few grabs.

Sharman was OKish last season for a few games.

It would might help with the shoulder
And would relieve pressure to shoot straight

But;
1) he’s a booming kick, and like McKay at Carlton, he might get his true boot back
2) he’s a marker naturally and good off the deck - perhaps that would help down back but there is an opportunity cost
3) Who else can kick our goals? Sharman was brilliant when he came on, and that rocket handball to someone who goaled, but he can go missing..Max is always a factor up forward, even when he’s having a shocker
Click to expand...

His brother does. But in our wisdom, we took the less versatile, injured brother.
 
mighty_sainters said:
I’ll tell you the real difference mate, as Kane Cornes said this morning he’s never had any support.

Ben King (pick 6), plays alongside Jack Lukosius (pick 2) and Jed Walter (pick 3).

Heck, he even has two big lumber jack who don’t do much in Casboult and Day but they provide a chop out.

I think our small forwards are actually really good in Higgins and Butler, what we need is someone there to help Max take it to ground. He’s only 23, he’ll be fine in the long run but he’s screaming out for some support.
Click to expand...
Max is one of the best contested marks in the league. He is having a down year in that department and still averaging more than Ben. That is a significant difference between them
 
edgie said:
Forgive me for still being here but I have an opinion on Max King.

Compared to his brother, he's obviously suffering. Both have had injuries but Max's have been more frequent but less severe. Ben to my knowledge just the one bad one, the ACL.

But one of the bigger reasons I think in the form difference is the teams. Since Max started playing for St Kilda, Saints have been competitive, if not real threatening. They've been around the mark and made finals a couple times. Therefore they attract more attention than Gold Coast who have been awful til this season. Ben King was probably not copping the attention and heat from defenders and pressure that Max has been. Teams might not have put as much work in to stopping the Suns as they do to the Saints in those years, and in a way that allowed Ben a bit of a free hit at it, some junktime confidence boosters that he could build on. Max has never had that chance. Max has never got his confidence flowing. Not as much junktime in St Kilda games either way due to the low scoring nature of the contests.
Click to expand...
Fair opinion.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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I’ve refrained from commenting about this game and King. Yesterday was about as frustrated I’ve ever been with him, and I’ve been a relative supporter.

Kornes loves a bit of chaos which only goes to serve his own self interest, and conveniently on this occasion fails to address how much of a deplorable mess his own club’s been in the last week. To see how many supporters come across to a Saints board advocating for a loss to get their senior coach of what 10 years sacked who is basically in tears after the game says it all all - zero humility and class.

In terms of King, I think he’s wearing it all, disruptive injuries for large parts of his career in formative stages, high expectations for a very complex club, the worst forward entry which just absolutely saps a KPF, and just generally playing in a side this year lacking confidence given so many close losses and working through substantial internal change.

Moving him on now with minimal benefit or return would be seriously flawed. That only benefits every club but St Kilda. For the large part of his career, he’s shown he can play. I think innovating his role might be the best option, get him playing a high forward role. I agree with some comments, he’s such a good field kick, it’s probably the best fit right now.
 
1*jhRP1qrRZ5K9D801Mtnj5Q.jpeg
 
The Punter said:
Thoughts:

  • Am I the only one who noticed we looked better in the middle as soon as Campbell was subbed off?
  • Also, if we're going to continue down this path, it's time to play Heath and not Campbell. We're 0-4 with Campbell in the team.
  • almost everything good around our (limited) scoring yesterday had a Hunter Clark involvement.
  • Pay Josh Battle
  • The turning point of the game was Max King's point. Not that he missed, but that he ever got the ball. Mitch Owens beat three blokes, kept the ball in, got into position in the goal square where he could have a straightforward snap and... handballed.

This encapsulates to me what the issue is - we have a team of underdogs who don't want the moment. At that stage, Owens has to want to kick the goal himself. To be the man. And he didn't. From that moment on we were going to lose. And no amount of early draft picks will change this, because any skillful player with confidence will have it drained out of them unless the attitude to winning inside the club changes.
Click to expand...

I had similar thoughts about Owen and said the same thing at the time. I suppose another possibility is that he wanted to bring his team mate into the game. Either way the decision was incorrect o suppose.

I thought we looked better when Max was off. His last stint in the ruck looked better which Ross mentioned. Maybe he is not the must not break at all cost commodity he once was and can therefore go into the ruck. Ironically it might be this that turns him into form. We can only hope…
 
Nutsngum said:
Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Positional change? Ross alluded to more ruck work. Making him play more like how Daniher does and really push him up the ground a lot more (almost play him on the wing) might get him into the game a heap more.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.
Click to expand...
Nailed it.

Well Done Good Job GIF by America's Got Talent
 
Nutsngum said:
Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Positional change? Ross alluded to more ruck work. Making him play more like how Daniher does and really push him up the ground a lot more (almost play him on the wing) might get him into the game a heap more.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.
Click to expand...
Thats the pressure of professional sport. Some can take it, some can’t. Being okay if there is no pressure to perform is not, unfortunately, a realistic expectation nor a realistic solution.

Sure, he could get another big body to support, but he could also lead…
 
mighty_sainters said:
what we need is someone there to help Max take it to ground. He’s only 23, he’ll be fine in the long run but he’s screaming out for some support.
Click to expand...
When we do have that someone where do we play them?
Let me see… Membrey at Sandringham, Caminiti in the backline & Sharman on the bench.

Back to the coaches.🥴
 
kyrgios said:
Maxy is wasted at this club.

Me, Battle and Maxy to Hawthorne.

Another Threepeet coming up. Maxy back to back colemans and Battle for norm smith.

View attachment 2035906
Click to expand...
That’s why you don’t play Davis Cup, spit the dummy to easily & not a team man! 🫢🤣
 
sauce_head said:
Thats the pressure of professional sport. Some can take it, some can’t. Being okay if there is no pressure to perform is not, unfortunately, a realistic expectation nor a realistic solution.

Sure, he could get another big body to support, but he could also lead…
Click to expand...
I wrote at length the reasons why this level of media scrutiny is unwarranted and unfair. Do you think its okay to make career changing calls for him like that based on a half season? I dont and frankly I think the media should have a much greater duty of care considering we have for years had players come out and state the mental battles its contributed to.

I think just stating that he should lead more isnt helpful. He does lead, he does get on the end of kicks successfully. The issue is hes not getting onto the end of enough and only part of that is a lack of effort. Its also reliant on whose kicking in to him, how far up the field he is, is he doubling back at the time to get inside 50 etc.. Way too many variables to just blame that one thing and way too many to make such big calls on unless you sit down and really review everything.

I do know however that most sides run with multiple key position forwards, even Richmond who won a premiership with one jumped at the chance to get Lynch when they could, and we are doing King a disservice by relying on him almost entirely (worse now that Membrey is really out of form).
 
Nutsngum said:
I wrote at length the reasons why this level of media scrutiny is unwarranted and unfair. Do you think its okay to make career changing calls for him like that based on a half season? I dont and frankly I think the media should have a much greater duty of care considering we have for years had players come out and state the mental battles its contributed to.

I think just stating that he should lead more isnt helpful. He does lead, he does get on the end of kicks successfully. The issue is hes not getting onto the end of enough and only part of that is a lack of effort. Its also reliant on whose kicking in to him, how far up the field he is, is he doubling back at the time to get inside 50 etc.. Way too many variables to just blame that one thing and way too many to make such big calls on unless you sit down and really review everything.

I do know however that most sides run with multiple key position forwards, even Richmond who won a premiership with one jumped at the chance to get Lynch when they could, and we are doing King a disservice by relying on him almost entirely (worse now that Membrey is really out of form).
Click to expand...
I think we rely on Marshall and Higgins more. But to your point that is a relatively small sample set (especially Marshall).

Imagine the pressure of expectation on him if he played for West Coast or one of the big four clubs… on field performance is fair game. Personal lives are no go areas in my opinion.

And he doesn’t lead enough or properly.
 
The Punter said:
Thoughts:

  • Am I the only one who noticed we looked better in the middle as soon as Campbell was subbed off?
  • Also, if we're going to continue down this path, it's time to play Heath and not Campbell. We're 0-4 with Campbell in the team.
  • almost everything good around our (limited) scoring yesterday had a Hunter Clark involvement.
  • Pay Josh Battle
  • The turning point of the game was Max King's point. Not that he missed, but that he ever got the ball. Mitch Owens beat three blokes, kept the ball in, got into position in the goal square where he could have a straightforward snap and... handballed.

This encapsulates to me what the issue is - we have a team of underdogs who don't want the moment. At that stage, Owens has to want to kick the goal himself. To be the man. And he didn't. From that moment on we were going to lose. And no amount of early draft picks will change this, because any skillful player with confidence will have it drained out of them unless the attitude to winning inside the club changes.
Click to expand...
No I noticed. He’s too low and lumbering.
Get Max H in. He’s potentially our future. I know he’s pretty raw but give him a run of games and let’s see what we’ve got.
Garcia and Hastie need more games into the too.
At this point we have nothing to lose.
 
edgie said:
What exactly is Tim Membrey doing?
Click to expand...
Cooked, unfortunately. He's been a very good player for a long time but he has lost a hint of athleticism which he relied on heavily. Used to bounce up above his opponent from the two-foot jump but his spring is diminished and he can not longer beat defenders consistently at AFL level.
 

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