Review Round 16 = Gold Coast 101-90 Collingwood

[No SPIN]

On Access All Areas, they talked about our backline. How we are a mess. So many of those players are so far below the 2023 version of themselves. They talked about the loss of Murphy is more apparant, especially for Moore and we haven't replaced him.
Defences win premierships. We were 2nd last year.
We are 12th this year.

I think the Hoynes analysis posted here reveals a far more accurate and positive analysis of our defence.

 

[Kirby]

Yes, I did. He fumbled again at a crucial time in the last term of the Gold Coast game. Agenda? That's just silly. So-any person who criticizes a player has an agenda because this usually entails a request for him to be replaced by player X. Go on the Friday night clash with Essendon thread. It's filled with comments on players who should be dropped for perceived flaws and replaced by players they see as better options.

I didn't even suggest dropping or replacing Freddy. He just needs to work on that facet of his game. Relax. I don't have a say as to whether Coxy gets a gig when fit.

"Silly" - what are you my grandpa?

Anyway, you have along history of potting players who are in competition with Cox for a spot, whether it is for right now (not the case here) or in the future (in this case). That's my observation.

Anyway, carry on.

 

[Kirby]

That's fine. Coxy has been disappointing as a forward this year. But he has shown repeatedly that he can stand up when the heat is on in finals.

I agree he was good in the finals last year in the ruck and I hope he gets that form back.

 

[Jen2310]

Collingwood’s key defence needs to come under the microscope


Collingwood’s key defence was found out in Saturday’s loss.


Darcy Moore

30

Darcy Moore

Age

28

Ht

203cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.1

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

169.1

3star

D

13.9

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

0.7

1star

MG

182.0

3star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

2.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

87.4

2star

simply didn’t have any kind of intercepting impact, which was disappointing given Billy Frampton

17

Billy Frampton

Age

27

Ht

201cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

0.7

3star

MG

99.0

2star

D

8.5

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

0.5

1star

MG

99.0

2star

D

9.2

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.0

3star

MG

107.0

2star

was sent to the most dangerous tall in Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

23

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

to allow him to do that.


Without Moore impacting, Frampton was torched by King pretty often in the first half as he kicked two goals.


The Pies did enough offensively to win, it was their defence that let them down.


While some of that was due to a lack of pressure up the ground, the Pies would want to work on their key defensive play and put some more heat on the ball-user coming inside 50.


It’s been a hallmark of their game and they must get back to it if they’re to genuinely challenge.

What they got right & wrong: The wins & woes from Round 16

Each game summarised.

www.sen.com.au

 

[jmac70]

Collingwood’s key defence needs to come under the microscope


Collingwood’s key defence was found out in Saturday’s loss.


Darcy Moore simply didn’t have any kind of intercepting impact, which was disappointing given Billy Frampton was sent to the most dangerous tall in Ben King to allow him to do that.


Without Moore impacting, Frampton was torched by King pretty often in the first half as he kicked two goals.


The Pies did enough offensively to win, it was their defence that let them down.


While some of that was due to a lack of pressure up the ground, the Pies would want to work on their key defensive play and put some more heat on the ball-user coming inside 50.


It’s been a hallmark of their game and they must get back to it if they’re to genuinely challenge.

What they got right & wrong: The wins & woes from Round 16

Each game summarised.

www.sen.com.au

Not exactly ground breaking analysis from SEN.

 

[jmac70]

"Silly" - what are you my grandpa?

Anyway, you have along history of potting players who are in competition with Cox for a spot, whether it is for right now (not the case here) or in the future (in this case). That's my observation.

Anyway, carry on.

Hopefully McStay gets back and takes the spot.

 

[domus]

"Silly" - what are you my grandpa?

Anyway, you have along history of potting players who are in competition with Cox for a spot, whether it is for right now (not the case here) or in the future (in this case). That's my observation.

Anyway, carry on.

I'd spoil you rotten and tell you scary stories on sleepovers and take you out for ice cream if you were lucky enough to be my grandson!

I simply advocate for the man I think is best suited for the second ruck job! Exactly what those who propose alternatives to Cox do every week.

 

[Kirby]

Collingwood’s key defence needs to come under the microscope


Collingwood’s key defence was found out in Saturday’s loss.


Darcy Moore simply didn’t have any kind of intercepting impact, which was disappointing given Billy Frampton was sent to the most dangerous tall in Ben King to allow him to do that.


Without Moore impacting, Frampton was torched by King pretty often in the first half as he kicked two goals.


The Pies did enough offensively to win, it was their defence that let them down.


While some of that was due to a lack of pressure up the ground, the Pies would want to work on their key defensive play and put some more heat on the ball-user coming inside 50.


It’s been a hallmark of their game and they must get back to it if they’re to genuinely challenge.

What they got right & wrong: The wins & woes from Round 16

Each game summarised.

www.sen.com.au

That's fair enough, although a pretty simplistic.

I'd rather see Moore play on the major target as that puts him in the game more. Every time we try to get him on a secondary target they pull him out of the game by running far and wide. They won't let him be loose, like they often do with Howe and they used to do with Stewart (until recently).

However, if we do that (which means Moore will often be in the goal square at bounces etc), then that means that Howe has to play that role that Moore currently occupies in our structure (25 metres out from the goal square) as Frampton is not good enough or mobile enough. It then leaves Frampton's place in jeopardy as he can't play anywhere else well enough. That means Dean comes back in.

 

[No SPIN]

There's no way I'm giving any weight to your appraisal of any player that you see as competing with Cox for a place in the side.

I didn't notice this fumbling you speak of. The major criticism of Kreuger was that he just didn't get to enough contests. This was not helped by us having minimal territory and him only having 67% game time.

This is the flexibility we have with Cox and not Kreuger IMO.
Far more competitive in Ruck for 100% of the game - which gives more first use, and less first use to the opposition.
More game day flexibility - allows DC/Cox to play fwd or back as needed at crucial times in the game, without conceding Ruck power.
Adds far more the down the line competitiveness given Cox is far more difficult to out mark, and can craft a spoil if needed for our ground level players.
Oppo defence have a greater challenge with a 210cm monster or DC, who both offer a “go long option” , we currently lack.
I can’t see any scenario where Fly picks Kreuger to replace a fit Cox.

 

[Kirby]

This is the flexibility we have with Cox and not Kreuger IMO.
Far more competitive in Ruck for 100% of the game - which gives more first use, and less first use to the opposition.
More game day flexibility - allows DC/Cox to play fwd or back as needed at crucial times in the game, without conceding Ruck power.
Adds far more the down the line competitiveness given Cox is far more difficult to out mark, and can craft a spoil if needed for our ground level players.
Oppo defence have a greater challenge with a 210cm monster or DC, who both offer a “go long option” , we currently lack.
I can’t see any scenario where Fly picks Kreuger to replace a fit Cox.

But I don't agree that having either Cox or Cameron forward gives us any advantage at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

I also really struggle to accept that Cox is difficult to outmark. I don't see it. He struggles when forward of the ball to get to the contests (as does Cameron).

Look, I guess it's a matter of what you think you gain with centre square ruckwork. Often it means nothing, as we saw with Gawn winning every tap but us winning most centre clearances on KB. Sometimes it is an advantage as we saw with Cox in the last 5 mins of the GF.

The other issue with Cox playing a lot of minutes in the ruck is it means that we lose Cameron's marking ability behind the ball, which is almost league best.

 

[Robroy22]

This is why I've suggested playing Dean and Frampton as the key posts and Moore as the interceptor. Let the two journeymen do the grunt work and allow Darce to play off. Since Murph retired our balance has been right out and we can get it back if we trust Chaz and William to play their roles.

The other thing we have to accept is that we've been playing this intense brand of footy for 2.5 years now and apart from being worked out by oppo coaches, we're running on empty particularly through the mids and half backs.

 

[jmac70]

But I don't agree that having either Cox or Cameron forward gives us any advantage at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

I also really struggle to accept that Cox is difficult to outmark. I don't see it. He struggles when forward of the ball to get to the contests (as does Cameron).

Look, I guess it's a matter of what you think you gain with centre square ruckwork. Often it means nothing, as we saw with Gawn winning every tap but us winning most centre clearances on KB. Sometimes it is an advantage as we saw with Cox in the last 5 mins of the GF.

The other issue with Cox playing a lot of minutes in the ruck is it means that we lose Cameron's marking ability behind the ball, which is almost league best.

Cox has taken only 15 contested marks in 11 games. He has won 21 free kicks but also gave away 18.
He averages around 8 disposals a game and has kicked 3 goals.

As a tap ruck he is only averaging 15 per game.

He had struggled this season.

 

[ThePhantom777]

“Moments to celebrate.”
Good goals but not celebrating a loss.

Where's Sidey's bump!?

 

[Apex36]

Okey dokes.

So, he dropped one overhead mark in the last quarter 2 weeks ago against North, you give no examples from this game (because there are none), but you say "he almost always drops overhead marks above his head" and then conflate this with a ground ball fumble in this game.

I think you have an agenda.

Of course he has an agenda, his love child Cox is potentially in danger of losing his spot to a player who’s proving to be a far more effective forward than him.

 

[sam_e]

I won't argue that Cox is not a better tap ruckman in the centre bounces against the monster ruckman. I accept that he is.

However, that is the only thing that he does better than Cameron. Cameron is better than Cox when the ball hits the deck after the tap, Cameron is at least the equal of Cox at around the ground ball ups, Cameron is far better than Cox at boundary umpire throw ins. Cameron is literally postcodes better than Cox at marking the football and having an influence around the ground.

Cox playing forward has been a liability for the past 2 seasons - he's ruck or bust pretty much.

So the issue is weighing up the benefit of Cox at centre bounces against what we then lose by having him in the ruck after the bounce/tap. That also has to be weighed up with him having to play minutes in the forward line where he has no impact (currently) when the second ruckman could be a forward whom can impact and make some difference i.e. Kreuger and/or McStay.

I favour playing the better forward and having Cameron doing most of the ruckwork.

i'm not sure i agree with all of that.

either way, Cameron tends to perform poorly across most of those areas when he's up against taller /more aggressive opponents. that is, he can be dominated by those bigger opponents across the board whereas Cox tends to hold his own or at least break even in the physical stakes.

on the weekend, i was surprised that Witts covered the ground better than Cameron, was involved in more chains when the GC moved the ball and Cameron seemed to be trailing Wittsy in, in general play, around the ground

ps: Cox' % TOG as #1 ruck went up noticeably during 2023 final series - relative to H&A - a recognition of some our ruck shortcomings in 2022 final series (see 2022 Prelim final v Swans). acknowledge that Cox has struggled to get going in 2024 and isn't displaying much of his 2023 finals form. all that said, whilst he wasn't alone, Cameron did struggle on the weekend and continues to surrender a bit in the physical stakes against the bigger rucks

Cox (211 cms) playing KF, whilst Cameron is rucking, also offers 'relieving' marks from our defensive kick-ins and/or 'get out jail' contests (marks) from long kicks down the line. neither Kreuger or Mihocek offer that option, something we really missed on the weekend ie. got stuck in our D50 during 2nd & 3rd Qs and couldn't get any field position.

anywho ..would be useful having him available to consider the option(s)

 

[Kirby]

i'm not sure i agree with all of that.

either way, Cameron tends to perform poorly across most of those areas when he's up against taller /more aggressive opponents. that is, he can be dominated by those bigger opponents across the board whereas Cox tends to hold his own or at least break even in the physical stakes.

on the weekend, i was surprised that Witts covered the ground better than Cameron, was involved in more chains when the GC moved the ball and Cameron seemed to be trailing Wittsy in, in general play, around the ground

ps: Cox' % TOG as #1 ruck went up noticeably during 2023 final series - relative to H&A - a recognition of some our ruck shortcomings in 2022 final series (see 2022 Prelim final v Swans). acknowledge that Cox has struggled to get going in 2024 and isn't displaying much of his 2023 finals form. all that said, whilst he wasn't alone, Cameron did struggle on the weekend and continues to surrender a bit in the physical stakes against the bigger rucks

Cox (211 cms) playing KF, whilst Cameron is rucking, also offers 'relieving' marks from our defensive kick-ins and/or 'get out jail' contests (marks) from long kicks down the line. neither Kreuger or Mihocek offer that option, something we really missed on the weekend ie. got stuck in our D50 during 2nd & 3rd Qs and couldn't get any field position.

anywho ..would be useful having him available to consider the option(s)

I honestly think you are seeing an imaginary Cox from your description.

He’s not an aggressive player, yeah he puffs up if he takes a grab but his play is not aggressive. He just tall with a decent leap. He also doesn’t cover the ground as good as Cameron so lord knows what Witts would have done to him.

Btw, Cameron was injured though much of last year and when he came back he didn’t move well and never really hit form. Cox was ordinary too and spent a couple of weeks in the VFL at the end of the season. Cox came back into the side against Brisbane in the second last round as sub if I recall correctly and did a great job on Oscar. To his credit he played well from there and got preferred ruck duties or at least split duties.

People talk like Cox was good all year. He wasn’t and at times was so poor he was dropped.

I also dispute that Cox offers much in the down the line kicks if you’re referring to him playing forward. He does sometimes offer the get out of jail mark from the backline late in games, when he’s playing ruck. That happens rarely and the reason he gets those marks is because he’s then usually competing against smaller players who are also trying to mark the ball (not spoil).

He rarely, as in hardly ever, takes marks behind the play in packs. He just can’t do it on any consistent basis.

The reason Cox has had a very up and down career is that he has quite a few limitations. It’s a great credit to him that he’s had the career he has had.

Anyway, they are my thoughts.

 

[loki04]

Hitouts were pretty even
32 v 28

Witts had some very clean and dominant hit outs.

Stats are always best paired with an eye test.

 

[loki04]

There's no way I'm giving any weight to your appraisal of any player that you see as competing with Cox for a place in the side.

I didn't notice this fumbling you speak of. The major criticism of Kreuger was that he just didn't get to enough contests. This was not helped by us having minimal territory and him only having 67% game time.

Needs to learn to keep his feet.

 

[sideswipe]

Needs to learn to keep his feet.

Big Mase has been a full time professional footballer for over a decade - not sure how much more he is going to learn.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FromTheBoundaryLine]

Wasn’t able to see the match and yet to see the replay. Tuned in to very dodgy radio signal and find we are 32 points down needing to come back again to win.
So why are we so often getting behind on the scoreboard? At times we seem to find it very hard to score for long periods of time then we go into comeback mode and suddenly we can’t be stopped and the opponents can’t score.
It’s quite tricky to get a gauge on us at present. Of course I love the close wins but the trend of getting behind is slightly worrying. Can’t put my finger on a particular reason. Any clues or is it just our style as we seem to be either brilliant or almost impotent. Asking for my heart specialist

 

[NMBB]

Wasn’t able to see the match and yet to see the replay. Tuned in to very dodgy radio signal and find we are 32 points down needing to come back again to win.
So why are we so often getting behind on the scoreboard? At times we seem to find it very hard to score for long periods of time then we go into comeback mode and suddenly we can’t be stopped and the opponents can’t score.
It’s quite tricky to get a gauge on us at present. Of course I love the close wins but the trend of getting behind is slightly worrying. Can’t put my finger on a particular reason. Any clues or is it just our style as we seem to be either brilliant or almost impotent. Asking for my heart specialist

Sample from premium Pies members' pack

 

[Mollythedolly]

they played in front of the footy like Hardwicks Richmond so if the win it they are gone.

They weren’t sucked into the contest where we invariably had more players. Win the footy and they’re well placed to spread.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Collingwood’s key defence needs to come under the microscope


Collingwood’s key defence was found out in Saturday’s loss.


Darcy Moore simply didn’t have any kind of intercepting impact, which was disappointing given Billy Frampton was sent to the most dangerous tall in Ben King to allow him to do that.


Without Moore impacting, Frampton was torched by King pretty often in the first half as he kicked two goals.


The Pies did enough offensively to win, it was their defence that let them down.


While some of that was due to a lack of pressure up the ground, the Pies would want to work on their key defensive play and put some more heat on the ball-user coming inside 50.


It’s been a hallmark of their game and they must get back to it if they’re to genuinely challenge.

What they got right & wrong: The wins & woes from Round 16

Each game summarised.

www.sen.com.au

Only Collins (11) is credited with more intercepts than Moore (7) from the game. Moore (10) was also only behind Collins (12) for spoils, so he was getting to contests. Even his DE% was >80% contrary to much of the discussion in this thread. Just wasn’t taking marks though, and that’s coupled with GC having 68 I50s relative to our 50, all of which paints it as a worse performance than the reality.

 

[loki04]

Big Mase has been a full time professional footballer for over a decade - not sure how much more he is going to learn.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Talking about Krueger, he goes to ground to often (and not talking in marking contests).

 

[sideswipe]

Talking about Krueger, he goes to ground to often (and not talking in marking contests).

Fooled by a pronoun