Review Round 19, 2023 vs Collingwood

[El_Scorcho]

I think Bucks was a decent coach, very smart and hard working. I think he should coach again (likr Ratten and Voss).

He wasn't great 2012-2016, we essentially slid down the ladder as he learned the ropes he should led have learnt as an assistant at other clubs, and dealt with a successful sides with strong personalities he had to reshape. He also had a president riding him and making footy decisions.

Bucks inherited some issues from MM including an unresolved racism claim that was handled poorly.

2018 showed he could develop kids, take chances and adapt his gameplan (we pinched Richmonds). Even Eddie backed off...for 1 year, then he was back making footy decisions like recruiting Beams.

Many successful players in the current side were developed if not by Bucks then under his watch, as he was a loyal club man and didn't burn future chances pursuing instant success.

We kept him on longer than most thought we should because he was popular but also because we are a loyal club. However Bucks got the job too early, and because he was parachuted in as a clubs favourite son rather than earning his way he lacked authority.

You know your club better than me, and like I say maybe it is Ken's time. In this comparison Buckley isn't Hinkley, he's Carr.

Hird. Buckley. Carr. Add in Voss at Brisbane and Ratten at Carlton. Favourite sons with short apprenticeships. It's not often a winning formula.

Maybe Sam Mitchell will buck that trend. Seems to be going steadily at Hawthorn.

Carr hasn't done a short apprenticeship. He's been in the coaching system for 12 years, a stint at Port, a stint at North Adelaide as head coach where he won them a drought breaking premiership, a stint at Freo where they looked like they were building something special, then back here as effectively the matchday coach in a season where our matchday coaching has come along in leaps and bounds.

He's one of the most highly rated assistants in the league, he couldn't really be further away from a favourite son parachuted into the role.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Some of that goes to have banked the wins and sitting top, even with a loss, hard to see them missing top 2. So not as much at stake as us.

Unfortunately the result reminded me a bit of the days v Brisbane 2000-2004.
Typically win at home, lose by more away and beat them on neutral turf.

Definitely.

The exact word I was looking for was composure.

Even the way they handed the ball back to the boundary umpire reeked of calmness and composure.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

In the AFL app you can see quarter stats for each player. There's a filter option in the stats section

That will really help with analysing the game. Cheers.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Sorry mate, this was sent to me by a friend in the media who was covering the game. This screenshot is of their internal software program. Can't be accessed by the public.

I assumed that but asked anyway with Jakey Neade for the win.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Completely agree. We need him in form and running hard. Loved his tough mark and goal.

He runs hard and you often see him deep in both squares while that is not the case with Bonner.

 

[Papa G]

Carr hasn't done a short apprenticeship. He's been in the coaching system for 12 years, a stint at Port, a stint at North Adelaide as head coach where he won them a drought breaking premiership, a stint at Freo where they looked like they were building something special, then back here as effectively the matchday coach in a season where our matchday coaching has come along in leaps and bounds.

He's one of the most highly rated assistants in the league, he couldn't really be further away from a favourite son parachuted into the rorole.

Yeah old mates comparison of Carr to Buckley or Hird or Voss is idiotic. If you are going to stink up someone else's board with what you believe to be your valid opinion, atleast get your facts straight. The 3 highlighted were all 3-5 years out of the game and all very much reliant on their playing prowess/ favourite son attributes rather than a solid, varied and impressive coaching apprenticeship.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

When Ryan Burton was dropped earlier in the year I was really surprised. Always rated him.

Sat higher up that I normally do last night and can now see why.

Dumb positioning and quite a few subtle soft moments. He has become very adept at the looking like he's trying but not really because it's too hard type efforts.

Loose and disrespectful to his direct opponent. Sets up to be in selfish spots.

I've got faith in him, super talented and great skills, but also think accountability should be coming thick and fast.

I have come to a similar conclusion.

IIRC, all of the goals we conceded in the last quarter were not because of hard work and accountability but a bit of skill and defence craft.

However the goal that McCreery set up from stoppage I think to hit Hill was Burton's lack of accountability and when McCreery sped off Burton just happened to fall over. I was not impressed and I don't think the coaches would be either. I mean McCreery is super fast and you have to play him super tight and almost goal side even though the stoppage was in our territory.

Burton plays well offensively but he can be burnt defensively and that is why he has been dropped and might be dropped this week again.

 

[thundercloud]

Could not find a lycett thread so this will have to do. If i recall ok, at centre strategy was leaping early to put his body under drop of ball and using his leading leg and body as a block to other ruck. Has prob never had a big leap but is a big boy. Recently whenever recently started has moved to drop of ball at centre and going for standing body on body to nullify other ruck This could also be to manage a knee problem.

 

[Cyclops]

Forgot to add in the early posts, while I think port got slightly more silly decisions from the umps it wasn't as much as you often see the home side get (we got a dream run in round 2 for example), and there were howlers both ways, in particular the Alir play-on OOB decision. I'm still astounded, did he kick the umps' cat?

Interesting tactic we used, they kicked it at Alir's head so he was under the ball, negating his brilliant leap and spoil abilities: led to 2 contested marks by us directly in front (McStay and Mihocek) which is a result on a top notch defender. I feel like ken pulled something like that on Moore too, made him accountable almost by targeting him. Dixon was able to mark or knock on by getting Moore under the ball instead of flying at it.

Carr hasn't done a short apprenticeship. He's been in the coaching system for 12 years, a stint at Port, a stint at North Adelaide as head coach where he won them a drought breaking premiership, a stint at Freo where they looked like they were building something special, then back here as effectively the matchday coach in a season where our matchday coaching has come along in leaps and bounds.

He's one of the most highly rated assistants in the league, he couldn't really be further away from a favourite son parachuted into the role.

Fair enough, it felt like less but happy to stand corrected. It may not be varied enough of a resume, but time will tell.

I guess as much as anything I'm reacting to the pretty strong anti-Hinkley sentiment. Fair enough if your supporters sick of him but he's having a great year. From the outside it'd be weird to move him on after what's been an impressive season so far. You've beaten Brisbane and Melbourne, in fact half your losses have been to us, and this result proves you're capable of beating us too.

The losses to Carlton and the Crows matter of course but they don't play finals footy, its champagne front running stuff. If you were to run into either of them in a prelim it'd be a sticky end for them.

 

[Papa G]

Forgot to add in the early posts, while I think port got slightly more silly decisions from the umps it wasn't as much as you often see the home side get (we got a dream run in round 2 for example), and there were howlers both ways, in particular the Alir play-on OOB decision. I'm still astounded, did he kick the umps' cat?

Interesting tactic we used, they kicked it at Alir's head so he was under the ball, negating his brilliant leap and spoil abilities: led to 2 contested marks by us directly in front (McStay and Mihocek) which is a result on a top notch defender. I feel like ken pulled something like that on Moore too, made him accountable almost by targeting him. Dixon was able to mark or knock on by getting Moore under the ball instead of flying at it.


Fair enough, it felt like less but happy to stand corrected. It may not be varied enough of a resume, but time will tell.

I guess as much as anything I'm reacting to the pretty strong anti-Hinkley sentiment. Fair enough if your supporters sick of him but he's having a great year. From the outside it'd be weird to move him on after what's been an impressive season so far. You've beaten Brisbane and Melbourne, in fact half your losses have been to us, and this result proves you're capable of beating us too.

The losses to Carlton and the Crows matter of course but they don't play finals footy, its champagne front running stuff. If you were to run into either of them in a prelim it'd be a sticky end for them.

Clarkson had 5 year apprentice including 2 years in the SANFL.

Hardwick 4 years before taking on the head coaching role at Richmond.

Chris Scott 3 years as an Assistant at Freo before becoming the Cats coach.

Your point about Carr's "apprenticeship" is shit.

 

[edgie]

I think Bucks was a decent coach, very smart and hard working. I think he should coach again (likr Ratten and Voss).

He wasn't great 2012-2016, we essentially slid down the ladder as he learned the ropes he should led have learnt as an assistant at other clubs, and dealt with a successful sides with strong personalities he had to reshape. He also had a president riding him and making footy decisions.

Bucks inherited some issues from MM including an unresolved racism claim that was handled poorly.

2018 showed he could develop kids, take chances and adapt his gameplan (we pinched Richmonds). Even Eddie backed off...for 1 year, then he was back making footy decisions like recruiting Beams.

Many successful players in the current side were developed if not by Bucks then under his watch, as he was a loyal club man and didn't burn future chances pursuing instant success.

We kept him on longer than most thought we should because he was popular but also because we are a loyal club. However Bucks got the job too early, and because he was parachuted in as a clubs favourite son rather than earning his way he lacked authority.

You know your club better than me, and like I say maybe it is Ken's time. In this comparison Buckley isn't Hinkley, he's Carr.

Hird. Buckley. Carr. Add in Voss at Brisbane and Ratten at Carlton. Favourite sons with short apprenticeships. It's not often a winning formula.

Maybe Sam Mitchell will buck that trend. Seems to be going steadily at Hawthorn.

Carr has been coaching for a decade now. Nothing short about that. Not at all comparable to the others.

Ken's time was five seasons ago.

 

[bow and arrow]

Forgot to add in the early posts, while I think port got slightly more silly decisions from the umps it wasn't as much as you often see the home side get (we got a dream run in round 2 for example), and there were howlers both ways, in particular the Alir play-on OOB decision. I'm still astounded, did he kick the umps' cat?

Interesting tactic we used, they kicked it at Alir's head so he was under the ball, negating his brilliant leap and spoil abilities: led to 2 contested marks by us directly in front (McStay and Mihocek) which is a result on a top notch defender. I feel like ken pulled something like that on Moore too, made him accountable almost by targeting him. Dixon was able to mark or knock on by getting Moore under the ball instead of flying at it.


Fair enough, it felt like less but happy to stand corrected. It may not be varied enough of a resume, but time will tell.

I guess as much as anything I'm reacting to the pretty strong anti-Hinkley sentiment. Fair enough if your supporters sick of him but he's having a great year. From the outside it'd be weird to move him on after what's been an impressive season so far. You've beaten Brisbane and Melbourne, in fact half your losses have been to us, and this result proves you're capable of beating us too.

The losses to Carlton and the Crows matter of course but they don't play finals footy, its champagne front running stuff. If you were to run into either of them in a prelim it'd be a sticky end for them.

What if Josh Carr is actually doing the coaching since Round 4? Should we still reappoint Ken then?

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sobrave]

What if Josh Carr is actually doing the coaching since Round 4? Should we still reappoint Ken then?

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

no

 

[Harlott]

IIRC, all of the goals we conceded in the last quarter were not because of hard work and accountability but a bit of skill and defence craft.

However the goal that McCreery set up from stoppage I think to hit Hill was Burton's lack of accountability and when McCreery sped off Burton just happened to fall over. I was not impressed and I don't think the coaches would be either. I mean McCreery is super fast and you have to play him super tight and almost goal side even though the stoppage was in our territory.

Burton plays well offensively but he can be burnt defensively and that is why he has been dropped and might be dropped this week again.

Burton’s effort against McCreery even before he got burnt off was average. It showed in that instant who wanted the ball a bit more. It’s current Burton in a nutshell. The dive in ‘desperation’ topped it off.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Burton’s effort against McCreery even before he got burnt off was average. It showed in that instant who wanted the ball a bit more. It’s current Burton in a nutshell. The dive in ‘desperation’ topped it off.

Yeah I was talking about the stoppage.

I will say not the best match up either.

And when he misses goals an elite kick should kick, it downgrades his entire worth. Kick those goals and the accounting error may be forgiven.

 

[Cyclops]

What if Josh Carr is actually doing the coaching since Round 4? Should we still reappoint Ken then?

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Well you've answered your own question there.

 

[Amarula]

I heard Connor say after the game that they had got a lot of confidence from the game even though the loss was disappointing. They played well enough and lost by a small enough margin to know that they are capable of beating Collingwood and with a thorough review they would be able to identify where they fell short. I'm sure the coaches tried a few things tactically as well and can see what worked and what didn't. The improvements needed to beat them next time are not huge so they should be able to go into a next game still feeling confident.

Great post. In contrast to R2, this time we brought our pressure game, which stood up extremely well for almost the whole game. As it is now, we are well within arms’ reach of Collingwood, and had the best of the play. We showed the other contenders how vulnerable the Pies are to pressure. We were a few straight set shots and a few defensive gaffes away from a 4-5 goal win. We really pumped them until 3QT, and they clearly wilted.

Butters was BOG until 3QT, despite carrying an injury, but clearly needed a break. But in hindsight, benching him for several minutes at the start of the last quarter was a huge tactical gaffe which handed them the momentum. Especially when at the same time it was decided to switch Drew on to De Goey and then Pendlebury. Another huge tactical gaffe that let Daicos off the leash for a few critical minutes.

Lessoons learned. I’m sure next time we play them, Carr will pay closer attention to the midfield matchups, particularly at the most critical time of the game at the start of the last quarter.

 

[philthy05]

This is an accurate description of Marshall's night:
Marshall was involved in 20 contests. Moore was only at 4. Of those 3 were simply him double teaming Marshall with Murphy.

Murphy was Marshall's direct defender in 165 of the 20 contests and he murdered him.

JHF and Marshall managed to * up a mark 40 metres out directly in front that ended up spilling to a Collingwood player and Marshall as mentioned missed a goal he just had to kick.

View attachment 1754306​

He did have 3 critical score involvements however that he executed perfectly. However it was a below average game for him, but not as bad as Finlayson's.

I don’t know where to start with this.

“Marshall was at 20 contests”

“Murphy was Todd’s direct defender at 165 of 20 contests”

Huh? make that make sense?

Also

“Moore was only at 4 of Todd’s contests”


Is there any breakdown of aerial and ground / general contests?

Moore is literally known for his ability to get to aerial contests

We spent all night kicking high up and under balls where moore had the chance to get to them.



We made it hard for our key forwards. We kicked high to Todd all night long and Moore had a chance to come over the top. It was dumb. It was exactly as we know hinkley has us set up to play.

 

[backtozero]

I don’t know where to start with this.

“Marshall was at 20 contests”

“Murphy was Todd’s direct defender at 165 of 20 contests”

Huh? make that make sense?

Also

“Moore was only at 4 of Todd’s contests”


Is there any breakdown of aerial and ground / general contests?

Moore is literally known for his ability to get to aerial contests

We spent all night kicking high up and under balls where moore had the chance to get to them.



We made it hard for our key forwards. We kicked high to Todd all night long and Moore had a chance to come over the top. It was dumb. It was exactly as we know hinkley has us set up to play.

He needs to make the most of his opportunities, which means kicking gettable goals from the limited chances that come his way.
Half the team is guilty of this, but Todd should be nailing his shots.

I know what you're gonna say - "but what about players X, Y & Z!"

Yes. Them too, but also Todd.

 

[Amarula]

…

Duursma who admittedly is underdone made some critical mistakes. Took a bounce he didn't need to whether Dixon sold him up the river or not. Got caught like a deer in headlights when he received the ball from JHF. There was a shot at goal or a pass to a contest (I can't decide which) that ended up being a throw in that just had to be better as well. But he will be better for the run. I have confidence in him.
…

Duursma’s biggest mistake to me was when he was caught on the other side of the stoppage leaving his opponent Sidebottom totally unoppposed for that goal at the start of the last quarter.

But he’s certainly underdone and always seems to take a few games to get back to peak form after an injury. An essential player when he’s fully firing.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Duursma’s biggest mistake to me was when he was caught on the other side of the stoppage leaving his opponent Sidebottom totally unoppposed for that goal at the start of the last quarter.

But he’s certainly underdone and always seems to take a few games to get back to peak form after an injury. An essential player when he’s fully firing.

100 percent. It was bizarre to see him so free. X is usually good with that stuff.

 

[philthy05]

He needs to make the most of his opportunities, which means kicking gettable goals from the limited chances that come his way.
Half the team is guilty of this, but Todd should be nailing his shots.

I know what you're gonna say - "but what about players X, Y & Z!"

Yes. Them too, but also Todd.

Well yea he does need to make the most of his opportunities, cause they’re so hard to come by in our system.

I think 1.8 goals a game is a pretty decent return.

I think we’ve seen by now what hinkleys plan is regarding talls and how we expect to score.

My biggest concern from the game is that our gameplan is meant to be about kicking the ball in after our talls bring it down, yet time and time again on the weekend the ball came to ground and pies players raffled off who was going to take it away while none of our smalls was to be seen much less make it a contest on the ground.

 

[Powerage]

I don’t know where to start with this.

“Marshall was at 20 contests”

“Murphy was Todd’s direct defender at 165 of 20 contests”

Huh? make that make sense?

Also

“Moore was only at 4 of Todd’s contests”


Is there any breakdown of aerial and ground / general contests?

Moore is literally known for his ability to get to aerial contests

We spent all night kicking high up and under balls where moore had the chance to get to them.



We made it hard for our key forwards. We kicked high to Todd all night long and Moore had a chance to come over the top. It was dumb. It was exactly as we know hinkley has us set up to play.

16 contests not 165.

Most of them were aerial. Murphy was Todd's defender for the vast majority of contests. Not Moore.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Ken should be that old guy who hangs around the change rooms and sings the song like that old bloke from sydney used to do, or thrown out and the locks changed. One or the other.

 

[Handyandy]

Could not find a lycett thread so this will have to do. If i recall ok, at centre strategy was leaping early to put his body under drop of ball and using his leading leg and body as a block to other ruck. Has prob never had a big leap but is a big boy. Recently whenever recently started has moved to drop of ball at centre and going for standing body on body to nullify other ruck This could also be to manage a knee problem.

Lycett is cooked, the other rucks are simply blocking Lycett from the fall of the ball, negating his one and only trick.
He was so bad, Collingwood won the inside ball easily all night