Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[gringo2011]

Gringo we love Steele but let's face it he has been s/it this year - having a mid clearly getting beaten in the middle is not helping us to win a game.

He had a really bad patch straight after his shoulder but he had found form again until this week. He's easier to control when there is only him and Crouch doing the heavy lifting on top of that. He's had 17 and 13 contested possessions in the 2 weeks before this week.

 

[Premium]

I doubt they are lining up for his services outside of St Kilda. There are heaps of good players out there who aren't broken down. If we delisted him I think there would be a few keen to have a go at him though. Heaps of guys go first round and never get their body right. Kade Kolodjasnij, Nath Freeman, Scharenberg etc.

Agree with that but he did his ACL and then did a hamstring - so if recovered now we should see him fire.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree with that but he did his ACL and then did a hamstring - so if recovered now we should see him fire.

Sounds like the knee is a bit loose and needs clean out in the off season. He's not starring but he's still better than most of the available players on ball.

 

[Premium]

He had a really bad patch straight after his shoulder but he had found form again until this week. He's easier to control when there is only him and Crouch doing the heavy lifting on top of that. He's had 17 and 13 contested possessions in the 2 weeks before this week.

For sure he had a few good games , the game your talking about is the Nth game and his last quarter he won us the game - but in all he has been poor.

 

[bergholt]

I think he's banged up but so are plenty of others. He's not been as bad as people are making out on top of that though.

His possessions, clearances, contested possessions are all lower than since before the pandemic. He's had a couple of games of 11 touches and 14 touches, and in both of those he only had one clearance.

I suspect he might be being asked to do a tagging job sometimes but still hard to defend how he's going.

 

[Premium]

He had a really bad patch straight after his shoulder but he had found form again until this week. He's easier to control when there is only him and Crouch doing the heavy lifting on top of that. He's had 17 and 13 contested possessions in the 2 weeks before this week.

I have to say the guy was made to lose weight to increase his endurance and in hindsight this could well of flattened the guy , it just seems strange why they tampered with the best player in the team and we have suffered because of it.
What I'm saying is most probably completely wrong , but I found him saying at the beginning of the season he came into preseason in very good shape and was told to drop more weight along with Ross. - a bit strange - they would have all the data on these guys over multiple years - it' like trying to get Usain Bolt to break 9 secs after setting the world record at 9.58 secs - there are limits.

 

[Premium]

His possessions, clearances, contested possessions are all lower than since before the pandemic. He's had a couple of games of 11 touches and 14 touches, and in both of those he only had one clearance.

I suspect he might be being asked to do a tagging job sometimes but still hard to defend how he's going.

The thing that got me was Zac Fisher who been on the outer was brought in was played like a star and Dow touted as a spud was even turning it on.

And for our captain to play the worst game of most probaly the year in a game which was a must win against a depleted Blues midfield was not good and I would really like to know what they are saying behind closed doors about our midfield.

 

[Mat Mann]

Do you actually think what Hill brings does not warrant him being in our best 22?
That's a wild take in my opinion. One we will most likely continue to disagree on considering the strength of the responses you've given regarding him haha. Happy to accept downfalls of the player, but the positives need to be acknowledged too.

As for the replacement - well that was the question. I'd keep him personally. I think his endless running to create an outlet as he burns off his opponent is very valuable, and his delivery CAN be fantastic. There's also the added layer of what impact he has on other players, mentoring roles for younger players (given his experience), being a great indigenous leader at our club. I think all of those things have great weight and merit that don't have a stat.

what also doesn't have a stat if how deflating it is watching Hill pull out of contest after contest.
We can all accept he's not a contested player, but ffs when it's your turn to go and make that contest because that's what the situation needs, and he consistently pulls out....... I know if i was his teammate I'd be very pissed off.

The worst thing about it was he was close to BOG and he was still frustrating as *. We were down on ground level and you could see there was often nothing to kick to ahead of him. Lots of turn overs were on his team-mates who wouldn't run into space. Plenty in marking range stood still and pointed to players 80 meters from him.

I had the same conversation with Rors on Twitter about that exact same thing. This game isn't in isolation in that regard, we regularly do it

It makes sense that we don't convert well considering that our forwards had played a handful of games between them at the start of the year. Caminiti had never played a VFL game. Owens off 9 games or something, Pou 0, Sharman about 20. King and Membrey missing most games, Snags missing games. Gresham so badly out of form that he looks like he's a liability. Butler uneven.

It's still a theme from the last few years though. King is a very frustrating player. He stands around and sulks a lot. Even yesterday he got knocked down and just sat there until a team mate ran in and lifted him up to get him moving. He doesn't lead much and will often take off up the field in frustration and leave the forward line empty behind him.

He could be a superstar but he's is giving very Joe Daniher like vibes right now. Watching the Hawk's two tall forwards recently you wish he could be more like them. One is slippery and tall and will use his nous to get into the right spots. The other is just a big solid Hawkins type of pack splitter.

King should be better in a better side but he needs to develop his craft now and use every game to hone his craft.

thing that blows me is away is Hammer and Sharman are leading forwards yet we ignore them repeatedly. Max is lazy imo, yes he gets held alot, but that's because he's to stationery

 

[AirWinmar]

What does annoy me with Max is, when he gets scragged abjt he generally gives up and looks at the umpire for a free. He needs to keep trying to fight for position even if he is getting scragged and will be more likely to get a free if he does. Also seems to crack the dads if he doesn't get hit on the tit and stops moving

 

[The Jack]

Had to have a chuckle at the irony of getting pantsed by Dow, TDK and Acres.

 

[The Jack]

Might be a bit harsh, and probably is, but Pou looked far better early in the season than he has for the past 10 or so weeks. Looks down on confidence to me.

 

[beside the seaside]

Apart from the miss just before 3qt you can't put much on Max. The delivery to him was poor and we missed a couple of great opportunities to get it to him. Aside from that we just didn't get it forward enough. Giving away the free when Gresh kicked that shocker to him was an error but man I don't blame him for being pissed with that kick.

 

[Parkysp]

Id back my Mrs in too kick it 30 out dead in front before id back gresh.

Which was why that play where he had Sharman on and decided to take the shot in the 2nd made my drive up the Hume stewing last night a very long one. Selfish in a small forward is expected. Stupidity ain't and he was never kicking the goal based on history.

Being reading through the autopsy and on that long drive home many comments I'm nodding my head with.

I hope the down the ground vision is actually watched. If it's not then I'd welcome any of the coaches to aisle 30 for our forwards. 3 talls up at so many contests, no small forward since Butler and Higgo play more as medium forwards and 'front and square' is not in their regular repertoire.

Whoever said Max has Daniher vibes, I really hope that's not the case but does he have the desire to turn over every stone looking for the key to success? Will he do everything to build up his body? Work on his goal scoring craft? He seems to get in his head very quickly if it's not going his way.

Oh and as a player can you say to the AFL PA, thanks that you're interested in my future but I'm getting paid exceedingly well to be good at my current job so in the other 25 hours a week I'm going to concentrate on my football because 15 hours isn't enough?

I apparently pay a lot of money for young men to study under the current agreement and to be frank I'd rather see them kick a goal from 20m out than worrying about their future job. Perhaps not 25 hours but the balance has gone too far the other way for mine. Already got a couple of my own at Uni that I help out.

It was a long drive...

 

[Mowman]

Apart from the miss just before 3qt you can't put much on Max. The delivery to him was poor and we missed a couple of great opportunities to get it to him. Aside from that we just didn't get it forward enough. Giving away the free when Gresh kicked that shocker to him was an error but man I don't blame him for being pissed with that kick.

He needs to lead and make space not just stand there give your team mates something to kick to

 

[beside the seaside]

He needs to lead and make space not just stand there give your team mates something to kick to

Fair enough, he's just not a get on your bike forward at this stage maybe he'll add that to his game it would definitely help him.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Had to have a chuckle at the irony of getting pantsed by Dow, TDK and Acres.

 

[Ads734]

They aren't young any more. I hope they come on but they are at the cross roads. Rose coloured glasses are needed to think a guy in his mid 20s is going to suddenly jump out of the blocks. Clark averages 19 disposals and 67 supercoach points this year. People want to drop Phillipou who averages 13 touches as a forward I his first season. Sinclair is the only player that I can remember that has gone from a GOP to star at such a late age.

Injuries mate like seriously. It’s not about age. It’s not even about jumping out the blocks. He’s shown he can play. Talent is there.

 

[phantom13]

Apart from the miss just before 3qt you can't put much on Max. The delivery to him was poor and we missed a couple of great opportunities to get it to him. Aside from that we just didn't get it forward enough. Giving away the free when Gresh kicked that shocker to him was an error but man I don't blame him for being pissed with that kick.

If you’re talking about when Gresh got the ball 60 out and was corralled. King was 60m away wanting the ball out the back. There’s probably 2-3 players in the entire league that can make that kick. King had the entire 50 to move into and make the kick possible, he didn’t, Gresh tried and actually still gave King a chance to launch at it, he didn’t.

That whole sequence was Max fault (and check my posting, I’ve bagged Gresh more than just about anyone) and speak to exactly what many of his detractors point to. Poor decision, poor body language, giving up.

Max was actually alright on return from injury but that moment was incredibly poor.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Had to have a chuckle at the irony of getting pantsed by Dow, TDK and Acres.

Olli Hollands just got a rising star nom for his game against us.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah, for sure but I reckon they must have sat on him to get that s**t. If you have a gun midfield you can sacrifice a couple for the good of others. Otherwise perhaps he was why Cripps hardly had any effect.

Cripps had 11 clearances , the most on the ground.
If his method of breaking a tag is to win the ball and get it to an outside team-mate, then i'd say that's effective.

The whole concept of tagging is to use an "average" or "poor" player to negate a top player.
ie : Baker vs Eddie Betts. CJ vs Garry Abllett Jr.

Don't see the point of Jack Steele taking himself out of a game to force Cripps to dish it off to Acres.

 

[beside the seaside]

If you’re talking about when Gresh got the ball 60 out and was corralled. King was 60m away wanting the ball out the back. There’s probably 2-3 players in the entire league that can make that kick. King had the entire 50 to move into and make the kick possible, he didn’t, Gresh tried and actually still gave King a chance to launch at it, he didn’t.

That whole sequence was Max fault (and check my posting, I’ve bagged Gresh more than just about anyone) and speak to exactly what many of his detractors point to. Poor decision, poor body language, giving up.

Max was actually alright on return from injury but that moment was incredibly poor.

He was 50 metres away. Most players would make the kick but you're right Max should have known that Gresh can only kick it 40 metres and led to the ball.

 

[gringo2011]

His possessions, clearances, contested possessions are all lower than since before the pandemic. He's had a couple of games of 11 touches and 14 touches, and in both of those he only had one clearance.

I suspect he might be being asked to do a tagging job sometimes but still hard to defend how he's going.

He's definitely off his best footy. I'm just saying that he's still not in any danger of being dropped because his worst games are still similar to Bytel's best games. You'd think he was at Gresham levels the way people are talking. He's playing like a B grader. Seb Ross isn't a great player but taking him out of the line up means guys like Steele are easier to stop.

Our midfield looked better when Jones was in the side even though he wasn't outstanding either. To be competitive with Crouch, a B grade Steele and rotations from Hunter Clark, Owens, Sinclair etc is kind of impressive but depressing. Shows the talent gulf between us and the better sides.

Even Carlton's injury depleted midfield is a step up from ours. We have to play negative tiring footy just to break even. Against the young Hawks it seemed to work, against the good midfields the gun mids end up cracking us open.

 

[SaintSlayer]

It has been overlooked that Carlton had an extra 2 days to recover before our game. Poor scheduling and would have a big bearing on the midfield.

 

[gringo2011]

He was 50 metres away. Most players would make the kick but you're right Max should have known that Gresh can only kick it 40 metres and led to the ball.

At the game it was obvious how little our players move for each other. Carlton were always moving into space to provide a couple of options for the player with the ball. Part of the reason we lost was because we stopped and slowed down because there were no open options ahead of the ball. Move around and work for each other and that isn't an issue. Guys were pointing to others asking them to kick to players too far away to reach and standing still out on the flanks.

 

[#gosaintas]

It has been overlooked that Carlton had an extra 2 days to recover before our game. Poor scheduling and would have a big bearing on the midfield.

3 days