Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[Captain Paddy]

Clark is a long way from being a decent AFL player, let alone the answer to our midfield woes.

I think people hold out hope that Clark will come good because he was a high draft pick and then occasionally does some left field stuff that looks cool but facts of the matter are, he's slower than anyone on the list, can't chase or spread. Oppo players run off him with ease and he struggles to get in the offensive chain if it's at pace. Would look like Bontempelli if every game was played in the slop of Moorabbin back in the day.

Coffield has shown less than Clark in terms of flashiness, but the actual tooks he possesses in terms of pace, marking and disposal make him a significantly better prospect - if he can get healthy.

 

[StCicatriz]

I think people hold out hope that Clark will come good because he was a high draft pick and then occasionally does some left field stuff that looks cool but facts of the matter are, he's slower than anyone on the list, can't chase or spread. Oppo players run off him with ease and he struggles to get in the offensive chain if it's at pace. Would look like Bontempelli if every game was played in the slop of Moorabbin back in the day.

Coffield has shown less than Clark in terms of flashiness, but the actual tooks he possesses in terms of pace, marking and disposal make him a significantly better prospect - if he can get healthy.

67% tog tells you he's in luke dunstan territory. i'd be offloading him ASAP in the hope a club will cough up something decent before he ends delisted like dunstan was

 

[Captain Paddy]

Mate I just said we've drafted well recently but we should have been trading in some established players to help with the load. Which we will most likely do this offseason.

If we traded in established players people would've complained that we didn't play the kids.

We've traded in a bunch of mids, some good - Crouch and Steele, some bad - the rest.

We don't need to get any more established guys, we need to play the kids we have, get more kids around them and swallow the pride that's had us finishing around 9-11 the last few years.

Admit the list isn't up to it, admit the previous admin were a massive fail, fall back for a year or two and then come up with a 6-8 year window with Max in his prime surrounded by Pou, Owens, Nas, Windy etc al

 

[gringo2011]

correct we were getting absolutely belted in contested possession and clearance in the 3rd qtr. i dont see ross lyon moving clark out of the center because he's performing and then leaving it like that even when the games slowly slipping from his grip.

the reality is clark wasnt getting more time in the center because he was our worst contributor in there in terms of contested possession and clearance!

I think it's more fitness. He never plays full minutes and usually only has stints in the midfield. If he's performing there is no way coaches are pulling him out of the middle unless there is an issue there.

 

[gringo2011]

Coffs 23 now, he was 21 when he did his knee coming off a really impressive season and with a solid pre season under his belt.

I actually agree with you holistically about our development and drafting but Coffs an exception to that, he was looking very nice until the knee.

His last actual year of footy he was in and out of the side and averaging 14 touches a game. He was still getting 5 marks per game but he looked pretty meh. He now has to get back to his best footy after 2 years out. Paton has never been the same since his leg break. It's getting to the point that both are on the brink. If he doesn't perform or breaks down next year it will be a big call to pay for him to stay on the list. He was drafted in 2017. How long do you wait until you pull the pin?

 

[gringo2011]

I think people hold out hope that Clark will come good because he was a high draft pick and then occasionally does some left field stuff that looks cool but facts of the matter are, he's slower than anyone on the list, can't chase or spread. Oppo players run off him with ease and he struggles to get in the offensive chain if it's at pace. Would look like Bontempelli if every game was played in the slop of Moorabbin back in the day.

Coffield has shown less than Clark in terms of flashiness, but the actual tooks he possesses in terms of pace, marking and disposal make him a significantly better prospect - if he can get healthy.

Coff has never really used his pace on field. Plays a very static game.

 

[The Cobra]

The problem with Matt is that he is slow. Most of our mids besides Jones are slow. Gresh used to have more pace, but seems to have lost that, plus 10m off his kicking.

It could well be what we make do with, him or Dow. But it will not help us much in becoming a Top 4 Team.

We need a gun mid who can burst away. It is why the Saints were chasing De Goey.

Haven’t followed him that closely but Parrish a bit the same- lacks speed?

 

[gringo2011]

If we traded in established players people would've complained that we didn't play the kids.

We've traded in a bunch of mids, some good - Crouch and Steele, some bad - the rest.

We don't need to get any more established guys, we need to play the kids we have, get more kids around them and swallow the pride that's had us finishing around 9-11 the last few years.

Admit the list isn't up to it, admit the previous admin were a massive fail, fall back for a year or two and then come up with a 6-8 year window with Max in his prime surrounded by Pou, Owens, Nas, Windy etc al

The problem with that is the kids will be peaking just as the Sinclair and Steele group are finishing up and we are back in the same cycle. Probably ideal to get a Crouch and phase the kids through so that they step straight in as he retires or sits in reserve. We need depth and a number of developing kids. We have Bytel in reserve developing and nothing else. Maybe Hotton.

 

[stfan]

Yeah but that's my point. If your strategy relies on nailing every pick then it's doomed to fail. On the other hand, if you just take mids with most picks then you've got the best possible chance of getting some good ones.

I actually think that we are in furious agreement. I never said we needed to nail every pick. And no club every gets them all right.

My point is that were were often making very poor drafting and trading decisions for decade. Not drafting enough mids was symptomatic of this. You are just reinforcing that.

The midfield is the engine room. Our previous regime went with band aid solutions to it such as drafting HBs like Coffield and Hunter hoping that they would morph into true mids.

Our midfield is what it is due to incompetence.

 

[The Cobra]

He was the standout in every session before he did his knee. Pre season form doesn't always translate to a great season, but it is usually a good indicator and Coffield had given himself every opportunity to have a great season.

And looked very good this preseason until he did his hammy then calf.

 

[gringo2011]

Haven’t followed him that closely but Parrish a bit the same- lacks speed?

He's not quick but not slow. Probably a bit too much like what we have in pace but at least wins heaps of his own ball. Crouch probably similar but much cheaper.

 

[phantom13]

His last actual year of footy he was in and out of the side and averaging 14 touches a game. He was still getting 5 marks per game but he looked pretty meh. He now has to get back to his best footy after 2 years out. Paton has never been the same since his leg break. It's getting to the point that both are on the brink. If he doesn't perform or breaks down next year it will be a big call to pay for him to stay on the list. He was drafted in 2017. How long do you wait until you pull the pin?

I’d disagree he looked meh personally and I could never really fathom why he got dropped but that’s opinion.

Agree on the rest though. He’s lost two years now, who knows what we get back.

 

[bird_man]

Haven’t followed him that closely but Parrish a bit the same- lacks speed?

Parish is definitely not slow. He doesn't have explosive speed but I think he'd be above average.

Definitely quicker than the Crouch/Steele types

 

[gringo2011]

67% tog tells you he's in luke dunstan territory. i'd be offloading him ASAP in the hope a club will cough up something decent before he ends delisted like dunstan was

That ship has sailed. Need to hope for a miracle and that he comes on.

 

[stfan]

We brought in Crouch instead that year. Similar money without needing to give up a pick.

We would have had an offer out to Crouch before the Treloar opportunity presented though. Plus the Crouch deal is not the $$$ of Hill or Hannas.

 

[The Cobra]

Coff has never really used his pace on field. Plays a very static game.

True but is that him or coaching?

Watched him closely in the small sided pre season match sim and he really is quite quick & nimble over the first 5 metres.

Enright has shown that he will encourage players to run and create in the back half if they are capable. Different instruction and encouragement might be what he needs (plus confidence in his knee and other injuries)

 

[g_TRAIN]

Doesn't help when your key forward can't kick at goal from 20m out - also somehow Higgo's set shot kicking has gotten even worse???
If it's not a snap or on the run I literally have zero confidence.

I think that's because his set shot routine looks so awkward and his ball drop looks pretty bad. When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

From a results point of view, 32 goals and 21 behinds suggest he's been pretty decent in front of the sticks this year.

 

[NoisyMinor]

I think that's because his set shot routine looks so awkward and his ball drop looks pretty bad. When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

From a results point of view, 32 goals and 21 behinds suggest he's been pretty decent in front of the sticks this year.

Curious how many of those are set shots.

From memory, he's kicking about half of his goals from snaps and hand-offs.

 

[jwikked]

67% tog tells you he's in luke dunstan territory. i'd be offloading him ASAP in the hope a club will cough up something decent before he ends delisted like dunstan was

He’s had low TOG all year. It’s weird

 

[PoppedCorn]

He’s had low TOG all year. It’s weird

Because he has no tank.

I can cover 12 kms and I'm double his age ffs

 

[Joffaboy]

The coaches didnt make the changes just for fun, it was because after half time we were getting slaughtered around the contest. Carlton won first use and their HBF flankers had a field day running off their mids. Clark was getting sliced up playing on Carltons 3rd string mid and giving us nothing on the outside. They moved him back to bring in Sinclair which for the first time in a while Sinc's had no impact.

Our midfield always struggle when there is speed on the game and Carltons intensity and run used them like witches hats. RTB threw the mids around to try and equalise the contest but nothing worked.

Owens has been off the past couple of weeks, probably as previously mentioned he is playing injured. RTB & Misson have priors for playing players who should be out injured and I think it is repeating itself again this year. Even so its not time to burn the house down, we just have to accept that our list is not up to it. At least then the club can do something about it.

I understand some think he is worth keeping but if Hunter Clark attracts interest he should be traded for his and the clubs best interests.

Getting belted in contested possessions, but 22 points up at the half, should have been 28.
So they move out Clark and Owens, Crouch is now ineffective because the pressure they took was on him. Steele was non existent. Both had zero possessions in the 4th.
Result? 1 goal.in a half and 7 goal turnaround.
Couple that with substituting a forward with a back pocket while we can't score and no matter what you say the coaches completely screwed the pooch.
Clark 16 possessions in the first, SFA in the second. Crouch BoG in the first, blanketed in the second. Sinclair ineffective after being moved for HBF, Steele useless all.day.
The coaches destroyed us in the second.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[phantom13]

I think that's because his set shot routine looks so awkward and his ball drop looks pretty bad. When it goes wrong it goes badly wrong.

From a results point of view, 32 goals and 21 behinds suggest he's been pretty decent in front of the sticks this year.

It’s particularly unreliable from 40 plus because his ball drop is so high and his leg motion so snappy that the margin for error is tiny.

Someone has got to be working with him and Gresh, very similar issues that are pretty easy to spot.

 

[stfan]

It’s particularly unreliable from 40 plus because his ball drop is so high and his leg motion so snappy that the margin for error is tiny.

Someone has got to be working with him and Gresh, very similar issues that are pretty easy to spot.

I think Gresh lost kicking distance after his last major injury, plus he looks a tad slower too.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Id back my Mrs in too kick it 30 out dead in front before id back gresh.

 

[bergholt]

Id back my Mrs in too kick it 30 out dead in front before id back gresh.

Gresh and Roma a dead heat for second in that race tbh