Round 4 Team (Carlton) - In: Lonergan, Hooker, Dell'Olio; Out: Riemers, Dyson, Carlisle

[eth-dog]

These guys are the most arrogant team on BigFooty- they actually genuinely believe that $1.08 is a fair representation of them, some thinking that they're long odds . Sure, they should be favourites ($1.75 to $2.09 or something like that) but thinking $1.08 is long . **** I hope we smash them

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Re: Changes vs Carlton

Unreal isn't it?

Hey question, my inconsiderate best mate is getting married on Saturday... Can I see the game on my Telstra mobile???

Yes. Pretty sure there's a trial period as well so you don't even have to fork out (although it's only $10 for a month so even if I'm wrong it's not a big deal).

 

[eth-dog]

Re: Changes vs Carlton

You named the same midfield group that I did, except you subbed in Myers for Lonergan and he is unavailable (I would have him over Sam too for that inside role btw). I thought you wanted more cover for their defensive spread? I assumed you wanted Dyson to stay in the team or something.

Yes, I did, but what you were getting at was what I disagreed with. You can't have 4 guys just doing the inside work, 4 guys doing just the outside work and one rotating between the 2, you need some spread. I did want Dyson in the team instead because it means we cover the spread better than what we normally do. FWIW, we need one defensive and one offensive mid for each of the factors I mentioned (for the most part) (Hocking def/Watson off, Myers def/Howlett off, Melksham def (eventually)/Stanton off, Prismall def/Zaka off, Heppell def/Monfries off)

That's my ideal structure. With Jetta forward. We lack a little defensive pressure in the midfield, and we need some guys who focus on defensive running. Bringing in Sam means we have 3 purely inside midfielders who struggle with the outside running. With what's available I'd have:

Watson/Hocking; Davis/Howlett; Melksham/Stanton; Dyson/Zaka; Heppell/Monfries

 

[Slattery_20]

That's a seriously impressive display of hair-splitting there, eth!

All of Monfries, Howlett, Hocking, Watson, Heppell, Stanton, Myers, NLM, Melksham, and Zaha *can* win the ball inside, and *can* and spread.
At various times they've been playing differing roles - Monfries has normally been forward but now he's playing inside - both Hocking & Howlett have been tagging and playing his own game, and so on.
Only really Lonergan is so one-paced he can't get involved in the spread.

Obviously we want Watson getting the 2nd or 3rd possession to distribute, and obviously we'd prefer Zaha or Heppell kicking it.... but they are all reasonably effective at both.

Quite similar to Carlton. McLean's the only real crab and that's why he plays reserves more often than not. They do have a dedicated outside man though, in Simpson - who they want to run and kick every time he gets it.
We don't really have that at the moment, Stanton & Reimers have done it in the past - I suspect our best line-up has Jetta in that role, and someone else (CD'O) in his spot forward.

 

[eth-dog]

That's a seriously impressive display of hair-splitting there, eth!

All of Monfries, Howlett, Hocking, Watson, Heppell, Stanton, Myers, NLM, Melksham, and Zaha *can* win the ball inside, and *can* and spread.
At various times they've been playing differing roles - Monfries has normally been forward but now he's playing inside - both Hocking & Howlett have been tagging and playing his own game, and so on.
Only really Lonergan is so one-paced he can't get involved in the spread.

Obviously we want Watson getting the 2nd or 3rd possession to distribute, and obviously we'd prefer Zaha or Heppell kicking it.... but they are all reasonably effective at both.

Quite similar to Carlton. McLean's the only real crab and that's why he plays reserves more often than not. They do have a dedicated outside man though, in Simpson - who they want to run and kick every time he gets it.
We don't really have that at the moment, Stanton & Reimers have done it in the past - I suspect our best line-up has Jetta in that role, and someone else (CD'O) in his spot forward.

I'm a nitpick. I'm a little peevish so I'm looking for a fight.

 

[Smyth94]

Zaka as a sub? Mental.

 

[HARKER]

Armfield is a spud though. However, like you say a pacy spud.

A little unfair.
May not be our best 22 player but well and truly fits into the "tough" mould that has been employed by Ratten.
Doesn't lose too many contests when manning up. It's not all about stats, you know.

 

[Slattery_20]

A little unfair.
May not be our best 22 player but well and truly fits into the "tough" mould that has been employed by Ratten.
Doesn't lose too many contests when manning up. It's not all about stats, you know.

The what now mould?
Carlton are a very, very good side but they are easily the least "tough" of the 5-6 clubs up there.
The toughest mould there is the stuff that's grown around the doors to the trophy cabinet in the last few years amirite???
Sounds to me like Sydney's "no ********s" policy... they've always taken on blokes who either left to line their own pockets, or got kicked out for being prats.
And the media swallowed it - hook, line and sinker.

 

[HARKER]

The what now mould?
Carlton are a very, very good side but they are easily the least "tough" of the 5-6 clubs up there.
The toughest mould there is the stuff that's grown around the doors to the trophy cabinet in the last few years amirite???
Sounds to me like Sydney's "no ********s" policy... they've always taken on blokes who either left to line their own pockets, or got kicked out for being prats.
And the media swallowed it - hook, line and sinker.

It is by design and not by mistake that we now have a back-line inclusive of Duigan, Tuohy and Laidler.
3 guys that had not played a game before last year are now regulars.

If you're not sure what I'm talking about let's pick it up after Saturday's game.

The forward line may not look tough, but they'll hold the ball inside the forward 50 as well as any other side.

We only had 2 players that really didn't put their heads above the ball last week and they won't be in the team for long, if they're not prepared to do so.

p.s. Nice invisible line in there also.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Nothing worse than seeing that ****ing tadpole head, & terrible "16yo buying cigarettes" moustache, giving it the Brad Greens after kicking a hero goal from 3m out.

classic description! I normally describe him as having a face like a pothole, but I like yours better

Yes. Pretty sure there's a trial period as well so you don't even have to fork out (although it's only $10 for a month so even if I'm wrong it's not a big deal).

cheers *starts googling*

 

[Slattery_20]

They do add toughness, but basically they were replacing Fisher, Russell and/or Walker.
ie, the others who had those spots before, either weren't particularly good or they fell apart- rather than it being a conscious decision, specifically based on hardness.

IMHO it's an area where Sydney, Cats, Saints, WCE Hawks & the Pies (when fit) have a clear advantage over Carlton.
Hawks and Cats are happy to get into the clinches, and just grind sides down.
Carlton need the ball out and moving.

IMHO that's why you're a worse side @ grounds like Etihad, but better at the G.

 

[HARKER]

They do add toughness, but basically they were replacing Fisher, Russell and/or Walker.
ie, the others who had those spots before, either weren't particularly good or they fell apart- rather than it being a conscious decision, specifically based on hardness.

IMHO it's an area where Sydney, Cats, Saints, WCE Hawks & the Pies (when fit) have a clear advantage over Carlton.
Hawks and Cats are happy to get into the clinches, and just grind sides down.
Carlton need the ball out and moving.

IMHO that's why you're a worse side @ grounds like Etihad, but better at the G.

That's true and has been the case at Carlton for a few years now.
Just saying that Carlton aren't as soft as they used to be.
A tackling coach employed last year is already yielding results and players that are expected to put themselves over the ball and don't, will be seeing action at VFL level on short notice.

Anyway, wrong thread for such a discussion. Cheers.

 

[fishardansin]

A little unfair.
May not be our best 22 player but well and truly fits into the "tough" mould that has been employed by Ratten.
Doesn't lose too many contests when manning up. It's not all about stats, you know.

He is on the improve but for me he has just run around the field like a headless chook for most of his career. Clearly a late convert to the game so could come on at some stage. However, from the evidence so far he's a spud.

 

[fishardansin]

It is by design and not by mistake that we now have a back-line inclusive of Duigan, Tuohy and Laidler.
3 guys that had not played a game before last year are now regulars.

If you're not sure what I'm talking about let's pick it up after Saturday's game.

The forward line may not look tough, but they'll hold the ball inside the forward 50 as well as any other side.

We only had 2 players that really didn't put their heads above the ball last week and they won't be in the team for long, if they're not prepared to do so.

p.s. Nice invisible line in there also.

These are backline players. Robinson definitely adds some hardness to your midfield. You still need another 1 or 2 big bodied mids and a big bodied and aggressive KPF. I'd also add someone like Crameri to your forwardline who could transform that 3rd of the ground like Laidler and Duigan did to your back 3rd.

 

[HARKER]

He is on the improve but for me he has just run around the field like a headless chook for most of his career. Clearly a late convert to the game so could come on at some stage. However, from the evidence so far he's a spud.

Spud?

Yeah, O.K.

 

[Slattery_20]

That's true and has been the case at Carlton for a few years now.
Just saying that Carlton aren't as soft as they used to be.
A tackling coach employed last year is already yielding results and players that are expected to put themselves over the ball and don't, will be seeing action at VFL level on short notice.

Anyway, wrong thread for such a discussion. Cheers.

Undoubtedly it's improved across the park, and the guys you've named been part of it. The really outside guys have been found out - you had a few, we had a few, so did most clubs.

I just have a bit of an issue with some of these lines that get trotted out.
Like "meatgrinder" for North, like "late converts will always be dumb", like "no ********s" at Sydney, like "culture", like - this won't be popular - "Essendon are successful" when we've not won anything for a decade.
"Tough mould" just sounds like another!
That's probably a bit of an issue for me to work through on my own!

Anyway... wouldn't say it's massively off topic, hope you have the very worst of luck for the weekend!

 

[HARKER]

These are backline players. Robinson definitely adds some hardness to your midfield. You still need another 1 or 2 big bodied mids and a big bodied and aggressive KPF. I'd also add someone like Crameri to your forwardline who could transform that 3rd of the ground like Laidler and Duigan did to your back 3rd.

Yes. Wouldn't say no to another quality midfielder..........or two.............or three.........or

Walker does what Crameri can do and more.
Gibbs will play forward through the course of the year and that gives us the right blend for our team.

Wouldn't say no to Cloke though, but you can't have everything.

 

[HARKER]

U
Anyway... wouldn't say it's massively off topic, hope you have the very worst of luck for the weekend!

Now isn't that odd. The feeling is mutual.

 

[astrowizzle]

Yes. Wouldn't say no to another quality midfielder..........or two.............or three.........or

Walker does what Crameri can do and more.
Gibbs will play forward through the course of the year and that gives us the right blend for our team.

Wouldn't say no to Cloke though, but you can't have everything.

Are you actually serious about the comparison between walker and Crameri? 2 totally different types of players.

 

[HARKER]

Are you actually serious about the comparison between walker and Crameri? 2 totally different types of players.

We have our balance and why would we want Crameri and at whose expense?
We have our two smalls, have our two talls and then ideally Walker when he gets back from injury and Gibbs for his class, goal-kicking and flexibility.
Who would we axe?

 

[astrowizzle]

We have our balance and why would we want Crameri and at whose expense?
We have our two smalls, have our two talls and then ideally Walker when he gets back from injury and Gibbs for his class, goal-kicking and flexibility.
Who would we axe?

I didnt say you would want crameri at anyones expense, i was just confused as to you saying that walker does what crameri does when they play totally diffferent brands of football. I reckon that that your smalls would love to get in around Crameris feet when he goes into a pack mark.

If we can get through this game without an injury i think it will be a pretty hard game of footy and much closer than any of the book makers have it down for.

 

[fishardansin]

Yes. Wouldn't say no to another quality midfielder..........or two.............or three.........or

Walker does what Crameri can do and more.
Gibbs will play forward through the course of the year and that gives us the right blend for our team.

Wouldn't say no to Cloke though, but you can't have everything.

That is right that you can't have everything. With so many stars in other positions on the ground there is only so much you can do elsewhere with the salary cap.

Walker does not do what Crameri does. Walker was fantastic last year but just because they are both 190cm failed midfielders does not make them the same. The have very similar speed and fitness, however, the difference is Walker has a much better leap and Crameri is much stronger. This means they play very differently. A bash and crash medium sized forward would make a difference to Carlton.

 

[HARKER]

That is right that you can't have everything. With so many stars in other positions on the ground there is only so much you can do elsewhere with the salary cap.

Walker does not do what Crameri does. Walker was fantastic last year but just because they are both 190cm failed midfielders does not make them the same. The have very similar speed and fitness, however, the difference is Walker has a much better leap and Crameri is much stronger. This means they play very differently. A bash and crash medium sized forward would make a difference to Carlton.

Don't really care to go into this type argument again, but if Carlton were to inject Crameri at the expense of one of our forwards, who would it be?

It wouldn't be Waite nor the alternating ruck-men.
We have a great synergy happening with Betts and Garlett that offer us something that other teams haven't got.

Crameri is a medium sized forward as is Walker.
They play a different brand of football as say Natanui and Sandilands do, but they're still there to do a similar type job albeit in a different type of way.

That's all.

 

[Slattery_20]

Yes. Wouldn't say no to another quality midfielder..........or two.............or three.........or

Walker does what Crameri can do and more.

Not really.
Walker does a lot of things extremely well, but he isn't a bust-through-tackles type, nor does he cope particularly well with the big backmen. Remember *that* game against West Coast, where he was all over Glass' back and just couldn't move him? That's where you need outright brawn.
I reckon you'd be able to find a slot for Cramers in there - as could most sides - and that's absolutely no slight on the guys that are there.
Gibbs goes everywhere anyway, so that's a bit of a non issue.

 

[HARKER]

Not really.
Walker does a lot of things extremely well, but he isn't a bust-through-tackles type, nor does he cope particularly well with the big backmen. Remember *that* game against West Coast, where he was all over Glass' back and just couldn't move him? That's where you need outright brawn.
I reckon you'd be able to find a slot for Cramers in there - as could most sides - and that's absolutely no slight on the guys that are there.
Gibbs goes everywhere anyway, so that's a bit of a non issue.

Just to finish up.
I know what you're saying and I agree with you re. player vs. player but my angle was more about role vs role. Both are there primarily to kick goals.
Would love Crameri and most may well find a home for him in Carltons forward line, but as it is for now at least, if it ain't broke, it ain't broke.

Ratten doesn't want players locked into any particular position and that's where things will get thrown around the place for Carlton.
Bower and Jamison played forward at times last week as odd as that may be, yet this will become all the more expected as the season wears on.

Some will think that Walker spent all of last year forward when that was not the case.
At least 25% of his time on the ground was spent through the mid-field and that is set to be ramped up this year.

I guess I may engaged into pitting player vs player as much as anyone else here, but when it's all weighed up, it is about the team and about the cohesion within it.