Preview Round 5 - Melbourne Demons v Brisbane Lions (Thursday, 11 April 2024 @ 7:30pm)

[martinson]

I'd also say we've been good at repeat entries inside 50 and keeping the ball in there, barring these nightmarish third quarter lapses we've been having. We just haven't been finishing off our work and taking advantage of our momentum. We're 3rd in the league for inside 50s but bottom 4 for goals per inside 50.

That's been a clear problem that burns a lot of our energy and explains lapses in concentration for other parts of the game.

Fwiiw I think a major issue there is a coaching/tactics issue.

The last time I said that I got howled down but didn't see anything persuasive enough to change my mind.

 

[Nunez]

I actually think Lyons matches up really well against Melbourne and their midfield “bulls”. Last time we played Melbourne at the MCG, Rd.18, 2023.

Disposals
Lyons 19 (10 Kicks / 9 Handballs)
Rayner 8 (4 Kicks / 4 Handballs)

Marks
Lyons 2
Rayner 0

Clearances
Lyons 4
Rayner 0

Inside 50’s
Lyons 4
Rayner 1

Goals
Lyons 1.0
Rayner 0.0

Tackles
Lyons 4
Rayner 3

Metres Gained
Lyons 346
Rayner 129

Of course in true Fagan fashion, Lyons was dropped for the next week and Rayner held his spot.

Bizarre comparison given Rayner played forward.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Bizarre comparison given Rayner played forward.

It’s about contribution. Based on Lyons’ goal and Rayner’s inability to score, Lyons was even more effective as a forward.

Rayner had 4 Centre Bounce Attendances and spent plenty of time up the field. He was not a deep forward who didn’t leave the goal square.

 

[Maboo]

I’ve dropped Rayner, because we can’t go into this game with passengers and unfortunately that’s what he was during the Grand Final and largely has been since. If Fagan selects him and I am almost certain that he will, then the acid must come on to Fagan if Rayner’s numbers are anything like his performance against North Melbourne. Worse still, if Rayner produces one of his “classic” three disposals in a half and less than 10 or so for the match scoreless games, people have every right to get absolutely stuck into Fagan.

It is not fair to drop Robertson and others while maintaining a “Cam will learn more in the Seniors” policy no matter how poorly he plays.

 

[McIvor]

Pretty much agree with that McIvor.

The way things are shaping up maybe 2025 will be our year and there's no chance of Fages stepping aside nor any chance of us terminating him prior to end '25 imo.

Maybe what he could with is a robust and smart Assistant Coach. I don't even know that we have one.

It’s all speculative because obviously I have no idea how good the assistants were or are but I think that our coaching performance as a team was in that 2019 - 2020 odd period when Noble was an assistant and GM - I mean the fact North appointed him said something about his ability even if it didn’t work out, Daly was also in the box and Dale Tapping was at the club; again another highly rated coach now at Bombers and the aspiring Zane Littlejohn who is now coach at Box Hill and was the VFL coach on the weekend and is highly rated.

So I too think since a number of those guys left I’ve been surprised that we’ve not targeted a highly credentialed and senior coach in waiting as an assistant. I mean last year alone the Dees had ez AFl coaches in Williams, Richardson and now Tiges coach Yze supporting Goodwin.

Anyways I just hope he find a way to win on Thursday and really get our season back on track

 

[3KZ is Football]

View attachment 1954123

Yeah I get it. M Malice made a point. I made a counterpoint and I’m over it too. See you all on Wednesday night.

 

[martinson]

It’s all speculative because obviously I have no idea how good the assistants were or are but I think that our coaching performance as a team was in that 2019 - 2020 odd period when Noble was an assistant and GM - I mean the fact North appointed him said something about his ability even if it didn’t work out, Daly was also in the box and Dale Tapping was at the club; again another highly rated coach now at Bombers and the aspiring Zane Littlejohn who is now coach at Box Hill and was the VFL coach on the weekend and is highly rated.

So I too think since a number of those guys left I’ve been surprised that we’ve not targeted a highly credentialed and senior coach in waiting as an assistant. I mean last year alone the Dees had ez AFl coaches in Williams, Richardson and now Tiges coach Yze supporting Goodwin.

Anyways I just hope he find a way to win on Thursday and really get our season back on track

I would've loved to have gotten hold of Kingsley as a 2IC but at the time we had the guys you mentioned in tow and we were on the upward spiral.

I can see Cotchin adds value as a specialist coach but he lives in Melbourne and isn't moving. So that's a bit weird.

Better to put out resources into a permanent assistant coach of which there have been many choices over the last 2 or 3 years.

It's not critical of the current coaches who probably do a good job but when you're inside the prism it's often hard to identify deficiencies or needs. And making the GF and getting so close last year has maybe papered that up even more so.

 

[McIvor]

On Nunez post about having a good feeling, I must admit since I heard tonight that Melbourne are challenging Pickets ban had me thinking that they must be somewhat concerned by us because why would you challenge that hit given the current climate unless they thought they really need him available and perhaps without him will seriously impact their chances.

I could also be reading way too much into that challenge.

 

[Denno]

They could have Brown, Petty and JvR all playing forward

True (be a tall forward line in this weather though!). Are any of them off the boil?

Maybe Gardiner goes back (and we perhaps go with Fort?), and one of Ah Chee/Answerth/Rayner goes out?

Guess it comes down to matching up on them v backing our strengths.

Dirty ball into our F50 would certainly nullify their strengths to some extent, and bring our small forwards into play (meaning Gardiner wouldn't be played up there).

 

[bungalow_bill]

So you have only omitted 2 from our team on the weekend, Gardiner(who goes to the sub spot) and Rayner FOR Lyons and Robertson.

I was under the impression that you and some others wanted mass changes, for what it is worth I like your side EXCEPT I would substitute Tunstill for Lyons if we rule out Rayner as an option.

I still maintain Lyons is way too slow on transition to be in the side particularly on the wide open spaces of the MCG.

I think Lyons gets a game only if Neale or perhaps Dunkley is out. When Ashcroft returns very slim chance of returning to the 22.

 

[Nunez]

It’s about contribution. Based on Lyons’ goal and Rayner’s inability to score, Lyons was even more effective as a forward.

Rayner had 4 Centre Bounce Attendances and spent plenty of time up the field. He was not a deep forward who didn’t leave the goal square.

You can't honestly compare the stats of a mid and a HFF and expect anyone to take it seriously man.

And despite that bad comparison - playing JL = playing him as a full time inside mid in a team that already has Neale and Dunkley. It doesn't work. If JL could actually play a second position it would be a different conversation, but he can't.

And no, don't state 'but he kicked a goal and Rayner didn't' - everyone knows he is not. Forward.

 

[mpal6]

I would've loved to have gotten hold of Kingsley as a 2IC but at the time we had the guys you mentioned in tow and we were on the upward spiral.

I can see Cotchin adds value as a specialist coach but he lives in Melbourne and isn't moving. So that's a bit weird.

Better to put out resources into a permanent assistant coach of which there have been many choices over the last 2 or 3 years.

It's not critical of the current coaches who probably do a good job but when you're inside the prism it's often hard to identify deficiencies or needs. And making the GF and getting so close last year has maybe papered that up even more so.

I really liked Steven King as interim coach of Gold Coast. He beat us once too I think.

He came across as a tactician who had plans around blunting opposition weapons, which I reckon is a major weakness of Fagan. Its a shame King went back to Geelong and we didn't manage to swoop on him while at QLD.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

That's been a clear problem that burns a lot of our energy and explains lapses in concentration for other parts of the game.

Fwiiw I think a major issue there is a coaching/tactics issue.

The last time I said that I got howled down but didn't see anything persuasive enough to change my mind.

There was vision of the Collingwood game where the ball was kicked into the inside fifty straight to Joe .
He had a defender on him one on one , he had the front position.
Wasn't ideal as it was like on his head , so he had to hold his ground , but still to his advantage, slightly in front.
He dropped the mark which really should should of swallowed it , but heres the worst bit.
He brought the ball down to the ground in front of him and there were no Lions players to crumb, NOBODY.
Really lacking that extra effort from our boys , really bad.
To me that just shows where we are at, just not enough effort from our smalls , pathetic tbh.
Easily fixed , that's the positive , just be aware and friggin work harder , get hungry.

Edit: Just wanted to add, we have injected Lohmann in.
He might be the spark up forward to get this fixed.

 

[Sproj]

There was vision of the Collingwood game where the ball was kicked into the inside fifty straight to Joe .
He had a defender on him one on one , he had the front position.
Wasn't ideal as it was like on his head , so he had to hold his ground , but still to his advantage, slightly in front.
He dropped the mark which really should should of swallowed it , but heres the worst bit.
He brought the ball down to the ground in front of him and there were no Lions players to crumb, NOBODY.
Really lacking that extra effort from our boys , really bad.
To me that just shows where we are at, just not enough effort from our smalls , pathetic tbh.
Easily fixed , that's the positive , just be aware and friggin work harder , get hungry.

This is where Charlie needs to do something. He’s been disappearing for far too long in games this year.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

This is where Charlie needs to do something. He’s been disappearing for far too long in games this year.

Absolutely .
look tbh I didn't see too much vision in regards to where our smalls were , for all I know Charlie could of been off the field.
But it is a team thing , somebody should of been there.
also just edited my post and added , Lohmann in should improve this problem.

 

[mpal6]

There was vision of the Collingwood game where the ball was kicked into the inside fifty straight to Joe .
He had a defender on him one on one , he had the front position.
Wasn't ideal as it was like on his head , so he had to hold his ground , but still to his advantage, slightly in front.
He dropped the mark which really should should of swallowed it , but heres the worst bit.
He brought the ball down to the ground in front of him and there were no Lions players to crumb, NOBODY.
Really lacking that extra effort from our boys , really bad.
To me that just shows where we are at, just not enough effort from our smalls , pathetic tbh.
Easily fixed , that's the positive , just be aware and friggin work harder , get hungry.

Edit: Just wanted to add, we have injected Lohmann in.
He might be the spark up forward to get this fixed.

There was a bit of that or an element of everyone wanting to do too much and kick that goal individually themselves. You could compare it to Daniher getting a kick on goalsquare with Linc at his foot ready to crumb, he tried to mark and kick it himself instead. The ball dropped off while his hands were beside his body - away from Linc and it got taken away.

Players are all feeling the pressure too with zero wins so I don't blame Joe at all on that one. On that note, our NM win came at a good time, just before the 3 tough ones. I believe we'll play a competent brand in the next 3 and may even win 2. Interestingly - GWS midfield don't scare me and their forward line can be a mixed bag at times. Gold Coast stayed with them up until 3rd quarter and dropped off in the last, so I'd say GWS form isn't that crash hot. Similarly we need to stay with Melbourne for 4 quarters and play a hard/tough brand of footy to be a good shout.

I think we are a chance on the 2 away ones and may struggle against Geelong at home.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

There was a bit of that or an element of everyone wanting to do too much and kick that goal individually themselves. You could compare it to Daniher getting a kick on goalsquare with Linc at his foot ready to crumb, he tried to mark and kick it himself instead. The ball dropped off while his hands were beside his body - away from Linc and it got taken away.

Players are all feeling the pressure too with zero wins so I don't blame Joe at all on that one. On that note, our NM win came at a good time, just before the 3 tough ones. I believe we'll play a competent brand in the next 3 and may even win 2. Interestingly - GWS midfield don't scare me and their forward line can be a mixed bag at times. Gold Coast stayed with them up until 3rd quarter and dropped off in the last, so I'd say GWS form isn't that crash hot. Similarly we need to stay with Melbourne for 4 quarters and play a hard/tough brand of footy to be a good shout.

I think we are a chance on the 2 away ones and may struggle against Geelong at home.

It looks and sounds like we are just not in sinc together. You know like a perfectly humming ship engine, instead more like my two stroke lawn mower , goes pretty hard but the sparkie misses every now and then
Hopefully that win last week got us some mojo back with some feel for each others game and knowing where they are/ what doing.
On the gold Coast/ GWS game , I watched it and Gold Coast looked pretty tight and and it was only when they made a couple of errors ie. Berry being too cute with a handball to himself , turning it over and goal.
Gws made it count. That was last quarter from memory.
They looked good, not far off beating GWS.
Kind of gave a bit of credit to GC.

 

[twhowler]

There was vision of the Collingwood game where the ball was kicked into the inside fifty straight to Joe .
He had a defender on him one on one , he had the front position.
Wasn't ideal as it was like on his head , so he had to hold his ground , but still to his advantage, slightly in front.
He dropped the mark which really should should of swallowed it , but heres the worst bit.
He brought the ball down to the ground in front of him and there were no Lions players to crumb, NOBODY.
Really lacking that extra effort from our boys , really bad.
To me that just shows where we are at, just not enough effort from our smalls , pathetic tbh.
Easily fixed , that's the positive , just be aware and friggin work harder , get hungry.

Edit: Just wanted to add, we have injected Lohmann in.
He might be the spark up forward to get this fixed.

Thinking of the pies game and what was a very poor game from hipwood. Despite that and to your point - he wasn’t really outmarked was he? The groundball stat on us in f50 v north was wild only a few for the year. Team has been crying out for a full game from Lohman, our MC is always weeks behind!

 

[twhowler]

It looks and sounds like we are just not in sinc together. You know like a perfectly humming ship engine, instead more like my two stroke lawn mower , goes pretty hard but the sparkie misses every now and then
Hopefully that win last week got us some mojo back with some feel for each others game and knowing where they are/ what doing.
On the gold Coast/ GWS game , I watched it and Gold Coast looked pretty tight and and it was only when they made a couple of errors ie. Berry being too cute with a handball to himself , turning it over and goal.
Gws made it count. That was last quarter from memory.
They looked good, not far off beating GWS.
Kind of gave a bit of credit to GC.

Yeah i actually think it was more a case or GC being really good. I reckon they are a very strong chance of a run of top 4 finishes from 2025.

Gws look awesome to me. Backline has the best defensive talls in the game. Forward line has an awesome spread with Hogan in career best from. Midfield not exactly shabby with Tom Green, Kelly, Coniglio, Callaghan.

They also hold absolutely no fears playing away - their crowd support even at home so they just create their own atmosphere.

I reckon they are the clear top pick.

 

[KissKiss]

You can't honestly compare the stats of a mid and a HFF and expect anyone to take it seriously man.

And despite that bad comparison - playing JL = playing him as a full time inside mid in a team that already has Neale and Dunkley. It doesn't work. If JL could actually play a second position it would be a different conversation, but he can't.

And no, don't state 'but he kicked a goal and Rayner didn't' - everyone knows he is not. Forward.

Plus its never been about Lyons ability to win the ball, its always been about what happens when the ball moves. Lyons defensive effort and spread has been just about the worst in the team (baring Gunston) for about 3 or 4 years now.

 

[martinson]

There was vision of the Collingwood game where the ball was kicked into the inside fifty straight to Joe .
He had a defender on him one on one , he had the front position.
Wasn't ideal as it was like on his head , so he had to hold his ground , but still to his advantage, slightly in front.
He dropped the mark which really should should of swallowed it , but heres the worst bit.
He brought the ball down to the ground in front of him and there were no Lions players to crumb, NOBODY.
Really lacking that extra effort from our boys , really bad.
To me that just shows where we are at, just not enough effort from our smalls , pathetic tbh.
Easily fixed , that's the positive , just be aware and friggin work harder , get hungry.

Edit: Just wanted to add, we have injected Lohmann in.
He might be the spark up forward to get this fixed.

Even Lethal who wasn't the games greatest tactician was big on your smalls running to the front of the contest ,or waiting there with a high ball , in the forward line.

He should know . He kicked 100's of goals that way.

 

[KissKiss]

They could have Brown, Petty and JvR all playing forward

That probably means we go:
Andrew > Brown (almost always takes the tallest forward)
Payne > Petty (Petty is next tallest)
Lester > JVR (JVR is the shortest and we know Lester cant line up on the really big boys

Starc is most likely for Fritsch, leaving Answerth and Wilmot for the next small forwards

 

[dlanod]

It’s all speculative because obviously I have no idea how good the assistants were or are but I think that our coaching performance as a team was in that 2019 - 2020 odd period when Noble was an assistant and GM - I mean the fact North appointed him said something about his ability even if it didn’t work out, Daly was also in the box and Dale Tapping was at the club; again another highly rated coach now at Bombers and the aspiring Zane Littlejohn who is now coach at Box Hill and was the VFL coach on the weekend and is highly rated.

So I too think since a number of those guys left I’ve been surprised that we’ve not targeted a highly credentialed and senior coach in waiting as an assistant. I mean last year alone the Dees had ez AFl coaches in Williams, Richardson and now Tiges coach Yze supporting Goodwin.

Anyways I just hope he find a way to win on Thursday and really get our season back on track

Funnily enough there were similar disparaging posts about the state of our coaching staff when we had Tapping and Littlejohn. A lot of these assistant coaches only become rated on this board after they go elsewhere.

 

[CarterS]

Looks to me like Berry coming back into some form, we look so much better when he is playing his role well.

 

[McIvor]

Funnily enough there were similar disparaging posts about the state of our coaching staff when we had Tapping and Littlejohn. A lot of these assistant coaches only become rated on this board after they go elsewhere.

Wasn’t Tapping very highly regarded as a midfield coach. I don’t recall the criticism but I recall people around the place not necessarily on here being disappointed when he left. Same with Zane who also from what I’ve read is an excellent coach.