Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[Saintos The ITK]

Exactly - how many of those clearances are Roma's hack kicks forward? We need guys that can exit a stoppage with the ball towards goal, and at least attempt to hit-up a leading forward. I am sure our small forwards (when we have some) would also appreciate the certainty of knowing where they need to be as well......

Like all the other sides do.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Cornes loves having a dig at the Saints

RTB's pressers way more interesting than most for mine.

Yeah , interesting when all he can say "its not an excuse"

 

[BrutThough]

The reason they let him go was too afford Jackson. Does it matter how long it took him. We could all see how he was developed poorly. Now he’s with a coach who values him and plays him properly and look what he’s doing.

So if anyone would be 'embarrassed' but his current form, wouldn't it be the club who sent to him to Carlton in the first place? But lets face, no one watches Acres and goes 'boohoo St Kilda, bad decision 5 years ago' expect the people who need to have some sort of victim complex about every decision we've made.

Good for him, he's eventually gone to to have a good career at his third club. But just like the players we have from other clubs who have improved since joining us, no sane person is watching him and caring about where he use to play.

 

[Saintbloke]

No we are still rebuilding after 15 years because of poor decision makers and crap staff. To bridge the gap we have to now over achieve. We have sacked lots of the absolute spuds but we can't afford to just coast. We have to keep making good decisions at a better rate than the rest of the comp to bridge the gap.

We spent 10 years excusing every mistake Trout made and never moved him on. If we have poor operators we need to move them on quickly this time or we will never move keep ahead of natural decline.

Lyon is looking like a bad model to build up our kids on because he is making the most of an ordinary list which keeps us out of the best picks and training the kids to play a really negative game style that is too heavily defensive and joyless.

People bag Bevo but his game is a very positive attacking brand and much nicer to watch. He's developing kids and playing new players and not winning much but you can see the brand holds up. If Lyon can't train a more motivating game style we should look at his position and any other staff that aren't at or above AFL standard.

Being happy with being s**t isn't the way to get better.

Seems some Saints supporters have been happy to tolerate sh%t for decades, and even make every excuse under the sun to keep it carrying on

 

[gringo2011]

How we are being embarrassed by Acres when it took him 3 years after we traded him to start playing consistent football and the club we traded him too didn't rate his performance highly enough to offer him a decent contract to stay?

He was playing well at Freo, it didn't take him 3 years. Champion Data were praising him as the second best wingman in the AFL when he was there. They cleared him because they had O'Driscoll looking like he was coming on fast and Henry for the other wing. They also wanted cap space for Luke Jackson.

 

[BrutThough]

No we are still rebuilding after 15 years because of poor decision makers and crap staff. To bridge the gap we have to now over achieve. We have sacked lots of the absolute spuds but we can't afford to just coast. We have to keep making good decisions at a better rate than the rest of the comp to bridge the gap.

We spent 10 years excusing every mistake Trout made and never moved him on. If we have poor operators we need to move them on quickly this time or we will never move keep ahead of natural decline.

Lyon is looking like a bad model to build up our kids on because he is making the most of an ordinary list which keeps us out of the best picks and training the kids to play a really negative game style that is too heavily defensive and joyless.

People bag Bevo but his game is a very positive attacking brand and much nicer to watch. He's developing kids and playing new players and not winning much but you can see the brand holds up. If Lyon can't train a more motivating game style we should look at his position and any other staff that aren't at or above AFL standard.

Being happy with being s**t isn't the way to get better.

Nice rant but I don't really get what any of that has to do with pointing out the decisions to get rid of the Hind/Bytel/Long types hasn't hurt the club and replacing them with free players who have performed to a higher level was good list management.

 

[BrutThough]

He was playing well at Freo, it didn't take him 3 years. Champion Data were praising him as the second best wingman in the AFL when he was there. They cleared him because they had O'Driscoll looking like he was coming on fast and Henry for the other wing. They also wanted cap space for Luke Jackson.

It took him until his 3rd year at Freo to become a consistent performer for them. Lucky for him he had that amount of time on his contract but it didn't haven't instantly or quickly for him out west. And that Champion Data comment was in his 3rd year there, hence saying it took him 3 years to become a consistent player for them.

 

[The Punter]

On Freo Acres

2020: barely played, did well in the last four games (when Freo were playing meaningless games)
2021: numbers look a lot like St Kilda Acres
2022: Good numbers in a top 6 side, knew he was leaving for the second half of the season (there was a bit of "why haven't they signed Acres?" buzz)

I think there is a bit of revisionist history here on Acres, which has more to do with the overall price for Hill. IMO we haven't missed Acres, but it would have been interesting to see him play the Wood wing role (which I think Ratten tried to do with Josh Battle

26

Josh Battle

Age

26

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

first).

 

[gringo2011]

So if anyone would be 'embarrassed' but his current form, wouldn't it be the club who sent to him to Carlton in the first place? But lets face, no one watches Acres and goes 'boohoo St Kilda, bad decision 5 years ago' expect the people who need to have some sort of victim complex about every decision we've made.

Good for him, he's eventually gone to to have a good career at his third club. But just like the players we have from other clubs who have improved since joining us, no sane person is watching him and caring about where he use to play.

If we are overflowing with talent no-one gives a shit but we had a habit of overpaying for middling talent while giving ours away for nothing. Luckily we seem to be better at moving those morons out of positions at the club these days.

 

[BrutThough]

If we are overflowing with talent no-one gives a s**t but we had a habit of overpaying for middling talent while giving ours away for nothing. Luckily we seem to be better at moving those morons out of positions at the club these days.

Hill is the only player we've given up a lot for in recent years yet we've brought in many starting 22 players who have played better than you'd expect for what we gave up for them.

IN terms of who we let go, Bruce is probably the only player we let go recently for unders but there is also players like Long and Gresham who we got better than you'd expect returns for which evens it out.

It's not that drastic either way.

 

[gringo2011]

Hill is the only player we've given up a lot for in recent years yet we've brought in many starting 22 players who have played better than you'd expect for what we gave up for them.

IN terms of who we let go, Bruce is probably the only player we let go recently for unders but there is also players like Long and Gresham who we got better than you'd expect returns for which evens it out.

It's not that drastic either way.

Howard, Higgins?

 

[BrutThough]

Howard, Higgins?

So a future 2nd and moving back 4 spots in the 20s for Higgins. Why would anyone be outraged by that trade?

And the Howard one - 12, 18 and a few later shuffles for Howard, Ryder and pick 10. The draft pick calculator is a bit of nonsense, but that values Howard and Ryder combined at pick 22. So for a best 22 full back and Ryder, who had a really big impact on the club and supporters despite only being there a short time, it seems like a decent deal. Maybe could have been marginally better but I dont think anyone involved would be losing any sleep over it.

 

[The Punter]

Howard, Higgins?

Higgins was traded for a 4 spot downgrade on our 2020 first rounder (Bailey Laurie, Blake Coleman and Brayden Cook taken in those intervening spots) and a 2nd rounder into a 4th rounder in 2021 (when we were picking Owens and Windhager as academy picks anyway). That's not a massive cost.

Howard is more complicated because we traded picks 6 & 59 for picks 12 & 18, then used those two picks and a 2020 third rounder for Howard, Ryder, a 2020 fourth rounder and pick 10, which we then used in the Hill trade. Howard finished 3rd in the B&F in 2020 and every single St Kilda supporter loved Paddy Ryder playing for us.

Anyway, I've been scooped.

 

[Sully111]

The problem with Acres is how we chose to play him while he was here.

Who knows how he would have gone if he'd stayed at St Kilda and been played out of position.

You can look at how he's going now, but that's through competent people getting the best out of him.

No guarantee that happens at the Saints.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

St kilda acres was a forward pocket and back up ruck for some reason. (Sound familiar?)
A lot of us knew he was being played out of position and could see he was better than what he was being used for.

 

[SG34]

On Freo Acres

2020: barely played, did well in the last four games (when Freo were playing meaningless games)
2021: numbers look a lot like St Kilda Acres
2022: Good numbers in a top 6 side, knew he was leaving for the second half of the season (there was a bit of "why haven't they signed Acres?" buzz)

I think there is a bit of revisionist history here on Acres, which has more to do with the overall price for Hill. IMO we haven't missed Acres, but it would have been interesting to see him play the Wood wing role (which I think Ratten tried to do with Josh Battle first).

We haven't missed Acres?
Acres would be a walk-up start in any side we put on the park this year or last!!

Hind had two stand out years for Essendon. Now, in these last two years, he is probably just a fringe role-player and he's older, the team is moving on etc., but he really helped them get there. We desperately could have used that kind of player. Instead we have had Jones for some bursts, or BYrnes and of course Sincs and Hill have done brilliantly too, but there was a time.

If Hind and Acres played in Lonny (esp in absence of Higgo and Butler) I think we win.

Just because some people make a big deal out of it, drama etc., doesn't mean it doesn't have legs.

 

[The Punter]

We haven't missed Acres?
Acres would be a walk-up start in any side we put on the park this year or last!!

Hind had two stand out years for Essendon. Now, in these last two years, he is probably just a fringe role-player and he's older, the team is moving on etc., but he really helped them get there. We desperately could have used that kind of player. Instead we have had Jones for some bursts, or BYrnes and of course Sincs and Hill have done brilliantly too, but there was a time.

If Hind and Acres played in Lonny (esp in absence of Higgo and Butler) I think we win.

Just because some people make a big deal out of it, drama etc., doesn't mean it doesn't have legs.

Ok, but St Kilda Acres? If we're missing a player we never had (post-St Kilda Acres), then I reckon we're missing Nick Daicos as well.

If we are poor at developing players (and. we. are.), then Carlton Acres is never really a possibility for us unless we fix things internally. Not bring in different players, not select Joe Thingy instead of Mike Jacket Pocket.

So, I don't think we miss the Blake Acres we had, or the only one we could ever had had.

Also, the solution to our current maladies lay inside the four walls currently - it's up to the people inside the club to fix it, not someone who is currently not at the club (player, coach or otherwise).

 

[PJays]

But lets face, no one watches Acres and goes 'boohoo St Kilda, bad decision 5 years ago' expect the people who need to have some sort of victim complex about every decision we've made.

It's not a victim complex but I do get frustrated every time Melbourne plays Carlton, knowing St Kilda gave up the opportunity to draft Kosi Pickett and keep Acres, all for the privilege of making Brad Hill one of the most overpaid players in the comp

 

[pebblesofsand]

Acres one hundred per cent has imo. The discussion is not Wood vs Acres

It’s Acres Serong Wokd vs Howard Hill and arguably Ryder. I know which I’d be choosing.

No the discussion is about Wood V Acres because the discussion is about which trades/delistings have we made that have ended up costings us players who would be starting 22 now.

On field the only close one is Acres/Wood but I prefer Wood simply because of the additional value you get from his off field involvement in the mentoring and development of younger players. Its invaluable.

I people want to talk about trades that actually made us look foolish, here's a couple of suggestions

Ben McEvoy (180 games after being traded)
Rhys Stanley (140+ games after traded)

 

[BrutThough]

We haven't missed Acres?
Acres would be a walk-up start in any side we put on the park this year or last!!

Hind had two stand out years for Essendon. Now, in these last two years, he is probably just a fringe role-player and he's older, the team is moving on etc., but he really helped them get there. We desperately could have used that kind of player. Instead we have had Jones for some bursts, or BYrnes and of course Sincs and Hill have done brilliantly too, but there was a time.

If Hind and Acres played in Lonny (esp in absence of Higgo and Butler) I think we win.

Just because some people make a big deal out of it, drama etc., doesn't mean it doesn't have legs.

Acres is a good player. But the difference between him, and Wood/Hill in our starting set up is marginal. Putting him in instead of them would make little difference to how we play overall given the wings is one of the areas we already have strong performers.

You've lost me with the Hind stuff. He's always been a bottom 6 type and even his best years for Essendon, his performances weren't matching who we had in those equivalent positions. Sure, he would have been better on the weekend over some of the first year players we had playing but that's not a fair comparison to make. Would he make the starting 22 half backs for us? Or small forwards? Unlikely.

 

[BrutThough]

It's not a victim complex but I do get frustrated every time Melbourne plays Carlton, knowing St Kilda gave up the opportunity to draft Kosi Pickett and keep Acres, all for the privilege of making Brad Hill one of the most overpaid players in the comp

You can create an imaginary scenario where we end up drafting almost any player in the AFL and be frustrated we didn't do it. But just because those links can be thought up, doesn't mean they were ever a chance of happening or that the player would turn out the same if they were playing for us.

 

[The Punter]

No the discussion is about Wood V Acres because the discussion is about which trades/delistings have we made that have ended up costings us players who would be starting 22 now.

On field the only close one is Acres/Wood but I prefer Wood simply because of the additional value you get from his off field involvement in the mentoring and development of younger players. Its invaluable.

I people want to talk about trades that actually made us look foolish, here's a couple of suggestions

Ben McEvoy (180 games after being traded)
Rhys Stanley (140+ games after traded)

We had just traded for Longer (a year after acquiring Hickey) and I think there is a little bit of rose coloured glasses looking back at McEvoy in 2013. He was never a great tap ruckman. He moved to a team where he didn't need to be great for them to succeed. But the Longer/McEvoy swap was not a good deal in retrospect (essentially moving from pick 24 to pick 19 in the deals - if Acres/Dunstan are not available at 24, then it could have ended up being Zach Merrett). OTOH, Longer had his career ended by concussion.

Same with the Stanley deal - Pelchen wanted another year with 3 top 20 picks (sound familiar to some commentary around these parts?), and Stanley was the only one with currency in a team that had just finished last. We picked Hugh Goddard with that pick, and he did his achilles in his second season and turned into a lamp-post. A poor deal on reflection, but also some unforeseen injury stuff that didn't help matters.

 

[The Punter]

You can create an imaginary scenario where we end up drafting almost any player in the AFL and be frustrated we didn't do it. But just because those links can be thought up, doesn't mean they were ever a chance of happening or that the player would turn out the same if they were playing for us.

Personally I'd rather be frustrated by Paul Chapman being injected with calf's blood so he could win a Norm Smith Medal with a completely torn hamstring, using a technique that was completely illegal for every subsequent AFL game played after that one. But that is just me.

 

[beside the seaside]

View attachment 1988470

I remember Rattens second year. He thought we were going to be top four. Then we got torched by Essendon. Then utterly destroyed by the Dogs. We spent the year having internal reviews. His third year was a carbon copy.

I understand he feels hard done by and seems to hate our club now but he had two years taking us absolutely nowhere. It's just tiresome to be honest. I don't know if Lyon will end up taking us anywhere but at least he cares about the club.

 

[SG34]

I think Acres and Wood is non-comparison. Acres is miles ahead. I haven't seen Wood being damaging since his shoulder went early last year.

I also feel sorry for Ratts. Who doesn't?

We still lack leadership on field, but we are far more disciplined (and fitter) than the Richo/Ratts years.

We play with the fear of God, and the talent of something less, much less unfortunately.

But it is a start.

(Last year we were probably a 10-12 team, but fortune favoured us)