Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[denisp]

I think Acres and Wood is non-comparison. Acres is miles ahead. I haven't seen Wood being damaging since his shoulder went early last year.

I also feel sorry for Ratts. Who doesn't?

We still lack leadership on field, but we are far more disciplined (and fitter) than the Richo/Ratts years.

We play with the fear of God, and the talent of something less, much less unfortunately.

But it is a start.

(Last year we were probably a 10-12 team, but fortune favoured us)

I don’t feel sorry for Ratten

 

[pebblesofsand]

I think Acres and Wood is non-comparison. Acres is miles ahead. I haven't seen Wood being damaging since his shoulder went early last year.

I also feel sorry for Ratts. Who doesn't?

We still lack leadership on field, but we are far more disciplined (and fitter) than the Richo/Ratts years.

We play with the fear of God, and the talent of something less, much less unfortunately.

But it is a start.

(Last year we were probably a 10-12 team, but fortune favoured us)

2023 stats on Wood and Acres.

Mason Wood and Blake Acres AFL Stats Comparison

Mason Wood and Blake Acres AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

No way Acres is "miles" ahead.

 

[PJays]

Personally I'd rather be frustrated by Paul Chapman being injected with calf's blood so he could win a Norm Smith Medal with a completely torn hamstring, using a technique that was completely illegal for every subsequent AFL game played after that one. But that is just me.

Wow, I was today years old when I learnt that. The story checks out.

From a Big Footy link (Fox Footy link broken):

"By Jon Ralph
November 18, 2009

The controversial blood injection therapy that helped Paul Chapman win this year's Norm Smith Medal has been banned by the World Anti-Doping Body Agency.
Chapman's troublesome hamstring was helped by a technique in which blood was drained from his body, "spun" to increase its oxygen content, then re-injected into the injured muscle.

The technique was not illegal this year and was seen as critical in allowing Chapman to play in September, when he kicked three goals as best afield in Geelong's grand final victory against St Kilda. "

There's AFL rule number 4 that was changed after potentially costing St Kilda a flag.

Or to be more precise, the 4th AFL rule that was crucial in key events that went against St Kilda, that were influential in St Kilda not winning a flag, where the AFL subsequently changed the rule.

And reason number 1,492 to be depressed as a Saints fan.

When I'm retired and St Kilda still hasn't won another flag for another 30 years, I'm going to spend a few months writing a book about the combination of incompetence and bad luck that's seen us become historic failures. This Paul Chapman blood thing will definitely get a mention!

 

[Saintbloke]

Wow, I was today years old when I learnt that. The story checks out.

From a Big Footy link (Fox Footy link broken):

"By Jon Ralph
November 18, 2009

The controversial blood injection therapy that helped Paul Chapman win this year's Norm Smith Medal has been banned by the World Anti-Doping Body Agency.
Chapman's troublesome hamstring was helped by a technique in which blood was drained from his body, "spun" to increase its oxygen content, then re-injected into the injured muscle.

The technique was not illegal this year and was seen as critical in allowing Chapman to play in September, when he kicked three goals as best afield in Geelong's grand final victory against St Kilda. "

There's AFL rule number 4 that was changed after potentially costing St Kilda a flag.

Or to be more precise, the 4th AFL rule that was crucial in key events that went against St Kilda, that were influential in St Kilda not winning a flag, where the AFL subsequently changed the rule.

And reason number 1,492 to be depressed as a Saints fan.

When I'm retired and St Kilda still hasn't won another flag for another 30 years, I'm going to spend a few months writing a book about the combination of incompetence and bad luck that's seen us become historic failures. This Paul Chapman blood thing will definitely get a mention!

Geelong around 2007 started a run when during the season, they suddenly had minimal injuries, and injured players were making remarkable recoveries. A number of players quickly developed muscular bodies over a short period of time. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

 

[The Punter]

Geelong around 2007 started a run when during the season, they suddenly had minimal injuries, and injured players were making remarkable recoveries. A number of players quickly developed muscular bodies over a short period of time. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

IIRC someone rather well known was head of fitness at Geelong in 2007.

 

[True Believer]

IIRC someone rather well known was head of fitness at Geelong in 2007.

If memory serves, didn't he then follow Thompson to..........Essendon?!

As I recall, some years earlier, his "diet and fitness" guidance helped Shane Woewodin come from the clouds to win the 2000 Brownlow Medal. If I recall, Woewodin slipped back to relative obscurity shortly thereafter......

 

[True Believer]

Wow, I was today years old when I learnt that. The story checks out.

From a Big Footy link (Fox Footy link broken):

"By Jon Ralph
November 18, 2009

The controversial blood injection therapy that helped Paul Chapman win this year's Norm Smith Medal has been banned by the World Anti-Doping Body Agency.
Chapman's troublesome hamstring was helped by a technique in which blood was drained from his body, "spun" to increase its oxygen content, then re-injected into the injured muscle.

The technique was not illegal this year and was seen as critical in allowing Chapman to play in September, when he kicked three goals as best afield in Geelong's grand final victory against St Kilda. "

There's AFL rule number 4 that was changed after potentially costing St Kilda a flag.

Or to be more precise, the 4th AFL rule that was crucial in key events that went against St Kilda, that were influential in St Kilda not winning a flag, where the AFL subsequently changed the rule.

And reason number 1,492 to be depressed as a Saints fan.

When I'm retired and St Kilda still hasn't won another flag for another 30 years, I'm going to spend a few months writing a book about the combination of incompetence and bad luck that's seen us become historic failures. This Paul Chapman blood thing will definitely get a mention!

That was one of the preferred techniques of a lot of the banned cyclists!!!

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Bring Zordy back to play defense.
Move Battle to ff to show them how it’s done.
Move King to chf with a bit of on ball time to give Roma a chop out. Get him into the game.
Take a punt and play Collard small fwd.
Jones for Ross.
Poo for Hastie. Let him play his natural game. Handball isn’t necessarily the first option.
Make a rule that Roma is not allowed to kick from the ruck.
Appoint a designated goalkeeper.
Play the three second rule. Look to wheel and go.
Make a rule we must have at least three players leading for every mark or free kick.
Make a rule we must have at least one player running past the player who has a mark or free kick.
Make a rule that it isn’t a crime to take on the corridor.
When tackling, grab and wrap. No more turnstyling.
When kicking into the fifty first option is to lower the eyes.
I’d like to make a rule that Naz takes all the kick ins but we need him on the other end of the kick in.
Maybe take another punt and give Ari a run.

 

[Miha]

Bring Zordy back to play defense.
Move Battle to ff to show them how it’s done.
Move King to chf with a bit of on ball time to give Roma a chop out. Get him into the game

Wouldn’t mind this at all

 

[Saintbloke]

Bring Zordy back to play defense.
Move Battle to ff to show them how it’s done.
Move King to chf with a bit of on ball time to give Roma a chop out. Get him into the game.
Take a punt and play Collard small fwd.
Jones for Ross.
Poo for Hastie. Let him play his natural game. Handball isn’t necessarily the first option.
Make a rule that Roma is not allowed to kick from the ruck.
Appoint a designated goalkeeper.
Play the three second rule. Look to wheel and go.
Make a rule we must have at least three players leading for every mark or free kick.
Make a rule we must have at least one player running past the player who has a mark or free kick.
Make a rule that it isn’t a crime to take on the corridor.
When tackling, grab and wrap. No more turnstyling.
When kicking into the fifty first option is to lower the eyes.
Is like to make a rule that Naz takes all the kick ins but we need him on the other end of the kick in.
Maybe take another punt and give Ari a run.

Get this info to RSEA park immediately

 

[Banger9798]

I don’t feel sorry for Ratten

I mostly feel sorry for me

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Make a rule that Roma is not allowed to kick from the ruck.
Appoint a designated goalkeeper.
Play the three second rule. Look to wheel and go.
Make a rule we must have at least three players leading for every mark or free kick.
Make a rule we must have at least one player running past the player who has a mark or free kick.
Make a rule that it isn’t a crime to take on the corridor.
When tackling, grab and wrap. No more turnstyling.
When kicking into the fifty first option is to lower the eyes.
I’d like to make a rule that Naz takes all the kick ins but we need him on the other end of the kick in.
Maybe take another punt and give Ari a run.

 

[gringo2011]

So a future 2nd and moving back 4 spots in the 20s for Higgins. Why would anyone be outraged by that trade?

And the Howard one - 12, 18 and a few later shuffles for Howard, Ryder and pick 10. The draft pick calculator is a bit of nonsense, but that values Howard and Ryder combined at pick 22. So for a best 22 full back and Ryder, who had a really big impact on the club and supporters despite only being there a short time, it seems like a decent deal. Maybe could have been marginally better but I dont think anyone involved would be losing any sleep over it.

Ryder was a sugar hit but he was going to be playing SANFL if he stayed. He was free steak knives to move some cap space for them. Howard is a GOP. I don't care what the value was it was a high pick that could have gone to the draft.

Could have persisted with Clavarino who was coming good towards the end. Could have kept Acres and played him on a wing and not chased Hill and gone to the draft and found some guns like Serong instead.

We weren't in the window, we were losing guys like Bruce, Stuv, Roberton etc. We were more likely to tread water with the top ups than be considerably better. It was reckless list management to hide their shame not improve long term.

 

[gringo2011]

Geelong around 2007 started a run when during the season, they suddenly had minimal injuries, and injured players were making remarkable recoveries. A number of players quickly developed muscular bodies over a short period of time. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Collingwood were drug tested after the 2010 GF and an alert went out to the anti doping people because multiple players that they tested had elevated HGH levels which raised suspicion. It looks like it was some kind of micro dosing going on there but staying under the threshold. An article went out the next day and within a few hours they pulled down the story.

 

[BrutThough]

Ryder was a sugar hit but he was going to be playing SANFL if he stayed. He was free steak knives to move some cap space for them. Howard is a GOP. I don't care what the value was it was a high pick that could have gone to the draft.

Could have persisted with Clavarino who was coming good towards the end. Could have kept Acres and played him on a wing and not chased Hill and gone to the draft and found some guns like Serong instead.

We weren't in the window, we were losing guys like Bruce, Stuv, Roberton etc. We were more likely to tread water with the top ups than be considerably better. It was reckless list management to hide their shame not improve long term.

We could have done a lot of things. Doesn't mean it would have worked out any better.

Sure we could have stuck with Claverino, a decent state league full back, but instead we went and got an AFL quality full back who has helped improve the backline.

We could have kept Acres and he then maybe doesn't play since we viewed him a borderline best 22, he never gets another contract and then fades into state league obscurity. Or we then don't pick up Mason Wood 12 months later who has been exceptional at helping guide the younger players and as a result, we don't retain someone like NWM.

We could have kept draft pick, drafted Serong and then he ends up with multiple concussions ending his career like one of our other first round picks, or he does a knee, then a shoulder before being asked to be traded, or he is only a B grader for us and then instead of complaining about not drafting him, this conversation is complaining about not being aggressive enough to trade in top performing players with foot skills from other clubs when we got the chance.

It really doesn't matter what we did or do moving forward because you will always be able to come up with a hypothetical other scenario which could have turned out better.

 

[True Believer]

Collingwood were drug tested after the 2010 GF and an alert went out to the anti doping people because multiple players that they tested had elevated HGH levels which raised suspicion. It looks like it was some kind of micro dosing going on there but staying under the threshold. An article went out the next day and within a few hours they pulled down the story.

Correct - I distinctly remember the article. The article said the skill was in keeping levels elevated but below the red flag threshold, and something like half the Magpies team had elevated levels. Statistically, the odds of that occurring naturally were billions to one.........

 

[SaintSlayer]

Too many in our forums are identifying individuals as our faults.

I see our faults as:

1) Our game plan is too defensive and difficult for players to be creative and attacking.

2) Marshall is not a tap ruckman and continually grabs the ball and kicks it forward indiscriminately to no-one. His role should be to either tap it to advantage or handball and then shepherd or block his mids. He is taking the midfields out of play at stoppages. Our mids are having to play negatively and have become defensive and reactive at stoppages and this disadvantages their quick movement and creactivity. Also the forwards have no idea where Marshall will kick the ball and our forwards have also become reactive and then having to defend.

3) When are moving the ball forward there is confusion amongst some of our forwards who don't appear to be commited to a strong lead, and they also double back which is confusing to the kicker. When watching TV the fault appears to be with the kicker and not the lead up forward.

4) Finally we have lost the ability to hold and defend the ball in our foward line. This is putting greater pressure on our mids and backs to react and quickly defend.

Unfortunately I don't see a quick resolution to our problems because of our game plan and tough draw for the remainder of the season.

 

[gringo2011]

We could have done a lot of things. Doesn't mean it would have worked out any better.

Sure we could have stuck with Claverino, a decent state league full back, but instead we went and got an AFL quality full back who has helped improve the backline.

We could have kept Acres and he then maybe doesn't play since we viewed him a borderline best 22, he never gets another contract and then fades into state league obscurity. Or we then don't pick up Mason Wood 12 months later who has been exceptional at helping guide the younger players and as a result, we don't retain someone like NWM.

We could have kept draft pick, drafted Serong and then he ends up with multiple concussions ending his career like one of our other first round picks, or he does a knee, then a shoulder before being asked to be traded, or he is only a B grader for us and then instead of complaining about not drafting him, this conversation is complaining about not being aggressive enough to trade in top performing players with foot skills from other clubs when we got the chance.

It really doesn't matter what we did or do moving forward because you will always be able to come up with a hypothetical other scenario which could have turned out better.

Thank god you have no control over any part of list management.

 

[gringo2011]

Too many in our forums are identifying individuals as our faults.

I see our faults as:

1) Our game plan is too defensive and difficult for players to be creative and attacking.

2) Marshall is not a tap ruckman and continually grabs the ball and kicks it forward indiscriminately to no-one. His role should be to either tap it to advantage or handball and then shepherd or block his mids. He is taking the midfields out of play at stoppages. Our mids are having to play negatively and have become defensive and reactive at stoppages and this disadvantages their quick movement and creactivity. Also the forwards have no idea where Marshall will kick the ball and our forwards have also become reactive and then having to defend.

3) When are moving the ball forward there is confusion amongst some of our forwards who don't appear to be commited to a strong lead, and they also double back which is confusing to the kicker. When watching TV the fault appears to be with the kicker and not the lead up forward.

4) Finally we have lost the ability to hold and defend the ball in our foward line. This is putting greater pressure on our mids and backs to react and quickly defend.

Unfortunately I don't see a quick resolution to our problems because of our game plan and tough draw for the remainder of the season.

The two biggest issues are midfield and small forwards.

We had injury to both and don't have depth to cover. There is nothing wrong with bombing forward to territory and then defending the ball coming out. Richmond won multiple premierships that way.

We just don't have anyone that can pressure that ball. Marshall and Steele both injured legs a few weeks back so both are a lot less accurate by foot all of a sudden.

Then if the ball isn't picked off it's run straight out and with an ordinary midfield it goes straight into our defensive zone.

All good sides have a range of sizes and avenues to goal. Collingwood, Melbourne, Geelong, Brisbane, Sydney, Port etc all have a range of sizes and types. Carlton is the only really unbalanced set up and they have two ballistic weapon tall forwards and drop a ruck back to really stretch defences.

Our set up is too tall and looks particularly bad because King doesn't move enough and there is no-one to shark his drops. Higgins, Membrey, Owen and Pou aren't defensive enough to lock the ball in. Butler is our only established small forward.

 

[MrFoster]

The problem with Acres is how we chose to play him while he was here.

Who knows how he would have gone if he'd stayed at St Kilda and been played out of position.

You can look at how he's going now, but that's through competent people getting the best out of him.

No guarantee that happens at the Saints.

Acres is a wing, his skills when given space to run and execute is fine. (very messy if under a little bit of pressure, also due to other poorly skilled players in the team) But at St Kilda, we never had the good midfield to allow him to play his position, Steven, Armitage, Stevens (from bulldogs) both retired early, we ended up with Dunstan + Ross… a hardly competent midfield. That’s why we were so poor for so long…

 

[gringo2011]

Acres is a wing, his skills when given space to run and execute is good. But at St Kilda, we never had the good midfield to allow him to play the natural position, Steven, Armitage, Stevens (from bulldogs) both retired early, we ended up with Dunstan + Ross… a hardly competent midfield. That’s why we were so poor for so long…

Richo was too moronic to try him where he could run. Go back and check the forum mood, everyone wanted to try him on a wing where he could gallop. Instead we tried to make him a third tall fill in ruck.

 

[phantom13]

Well said
How bout putting sone of the responsibility on lame, unskilled, low IQ players dropping chest marks, hand balling backwards, missing by foot, turning it over weekly when kicking in from D50, never kicking to advantage in F50 or my fav ….handballs to a player standing still next to them whose already under pressure????
Nah…..just all coaching???

I mean the bolded actually is coaching. Were clearly trying to forward and first instinct handball as a rule. Its not being done properly but its 100% a directive.

That was one of the preferred techniques of a lot of the banned cyclists!!!

Not quite. Blood doping isnt about muscle development or repair its about blood oxygenation.

Concept is similar (not the same) but output and implication are worlds apart. Its also why blood doping was banned almost as soon as it was known to be being used and the muscle repair stuff took years to be banned.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Ryder was a sugar hit but he was going to be playing SANFL if he stayed. He was free steak knives to move some cap space for them. Howard is a GOP. I don't care what the value was it was a high pick that could have gone to the draft.

Could have persisted with Clavarino who was coming good towards the end. Could have kept Acres and played him on a wing and not chased Hill and gone to the draft and found some guns like Serong instead.

We weren't in the window, we were losing guys like Bruce, Stuv, Roberton etc. We were more likely to tread water with the top ups than be considerably better. It was reckless list management to hide their shame not improve long term.

He was never coming good , now your just going off on one of your weird tangents

 

[phantom13]

He was never coming good , now your just going off on one of your weird tangents

I mean you can disagree without being a dick about it.

gringo2011 is one of the most educated and well informed footy watchers on the forum, he watches draft prospects and VFL and knows what hes talking about, he has pessimistic leans as many of us do but if he reckons Clav was showing something id be inclined to believe thats probably right. Argue that hed had more than enough time or wasnt developing at a rate you wanted to see but this weird tangeants comment is harsh IMO.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I mean you can disagree without being a dick about it.

gringo2011 is one of the most educated and well informed footy watchers on the forum, he watches draft prospects and VFL and knows what hes talking about, he has pessimistic leans as many of us do but if he reckons Clav was showing something id be inclined to believe thats probably right. Argue that hed had more than enough time or wasnt developing at a rate you wanted to see but this weird tangeants comment is harsh IMO.

Now you are reminding me of George,
And its a bit harsh calling me a Dick , practice what you preach