Roast Sack Horse

[caesar88]

Agree but my hypothesis is the "push to be more professional" is being misinterpreted to meaning being "more like a bank".

It seems obvious Brisbane and Fagan still maintained a "local footy club" culture but with professional training standards.

There is a difference.

My concern is the corporate silvertail culture is being absorbed by the playing group.

They sure as shit dont like body contact and doing any dirty blue collar stuff

I agree that we don't seem to have that sort of humble, grassroots culture in the team that I feel coaches like Fagan & McCrae have been able to conjure in recent years. I don't know that it's because of our corporate interests. In fact I find it unlikely that that would be the reason; I doubt our players are even aware of or invested in half the stuff our club's doing off the field in a corporate sense.

I think there's probably a number of factors involved. One being that I think in their efforts to embrace a new generation of Swans players and the style in which they play, the coaches have lost a level of accountability they once had; where players can show a lack of buy-in to the blue collar stuff you speak of and not only still get picked in the team each week, but can actually be put on a pedestal, singled out for praise by the coaches, given coaches votes, etc. I can remember when Tom Mitchell couldn't get games because he wasn't strong enough defensively (and I think that was fair enough at the time.) Where's that John Longmire gone?

 

[Dubai Quacker]

We have more silver tails within the club compared to the Roos and early Longmire years. Pridham and Harley off the field and not a lot of players like Hall, Kirk, Ablett, Shaw, Bevan, Mumford etc on the ground. More privileged types perhaps but maybe the whole league is more like this now. Private school kids dominate the numbers as well. food for thought.

Yes, we lost the grand final because some of our players went to private schools.

 

[Jewelsbon]

I actually have a problem with the leadership culture.
Harley and Horse have been indoctrinated and completely pilled into corporate culture and seemingly moved away from footy club culture. We have taken on air of haughtiness and superiority. Like we are a class above.

I don't actually think we are in a premiership window and I think winning the minor premiership was flattering and a false economy.

I just watched the replay the other day and thale big thing that stuck out was the players total inability to run backwards when we didn't have the ball.

Lachie Neale was left entirely alone all day. No body contact at all.. Sometimes he was in his own paddock just strolling along. Nobody even went near him at stoppages. He probably couldn't believe his luck.

We are the epitome of downhill skiers and I won't be surprised if the other clubs figure this out.

When Heeney got the week suspension it was a fair penalty yet we sooked and sooked and sooked about it.

Toby Greene mocked our sooking so we sooked about that as well..

And that was Harley and Horse leading the sooking.

Then at the GF after getting flogged Rampe somehow remembers to make a special reference to real-estate.com.au, a news ltd company.

I dont recall Brisbane players thanking any Individual sponsors.

But there is good old Swans culture circa 2024. Dane managed to find a place in his heart to give the Murdochs a shout out, like they need it.

Are you mad or just a masochist?

 

[Stu1961]

Are you mad or just a masochist?

 

[WillHayward]

Are you mad or just a masochist

Definitely mad.

 

[WillHayward]

Yes, we lost the grand final because some of our players went to private schools.

Well papley is a plumber from Gippsland with lots of passion and known for his "in your face" goal celebrations.

Can't recall.him making any tackles like Charlie Cameron made on GF day.

It's nothing to do with what school anyone went to.

Just the overall culture from the top all says we are white collar.

 

[bedford]

Not needed

 

[The King!]

Well papley is a plumber from Gippsland with lots of passion and known for his "in your face" goal celebrations.

Can't recall.him making any tackles like Charlie Cameron made on GF day.

It's nothing to do with what school anyone went to.

Just the overall culture from the top all says we are white collar.

He's in your face and fired up when it's going well , quiet as a church mouse grand final day AGAIN.


Hard to get excited about 2025 knowing the same coach who can't get it done is taking the same group in to fail.

 

[The King!]

Longmire is a 56% winning coach for the last 6 years and a 50% winning coach in finals

Average at best nowadays , no where near good enough.

 

[Kapers]

Yeah, I'm still angry

 

[Caj]

Has he walked yet?

 

[Jewelsbon]

Yeah, I'm still angry

Me too Kapers and doesn't look like I'll be simmering down anytime soon.

 

[The King!]

I'm angry at myself for thinking Horse had changed . Should have stuck to my guns

 

[caesar88]

I'm angry at myself for thinking Horse had changed . Should have stuck to my guns

I think Horse is great at long-term change, ie. he's taken two very different Swans teams to grand finals with two very different game styles across his 14 years.

But I don't think he's all that good at short-term change, ie. changing his game plan or structures on the fly over the course of quarters, games, weeks when needed.

 

[The King!]

I think Horse is great at long-term change, ie. he's taken two very different Swans teams to grand finals with two very different game styles across his 14 years.

But I don't think he's all that good at short-term change, ie. changing his game plan or structures on the fly over the course of quarters, games, weeks when needed.

I'm starting to think more and more Horse is an average coach (which is still good , I am not saying he cannot coach) but he has had tremendously talented players and if anything has stood in the way of development or failed to get the best out of what players did. I mean did he really maximise Buddy Franklin? No imo.


He isn't Mark Neeld, but if say Ratten had the same talented over the journey he probably coaches over a decade too. Finals and big games are where coaches can make a difference and he doesn't do a lot. But clearly gets the basic nuts and bolts correct .

 

[caesar88]

I'm starting to think more and more Horse is an average coach (which is still good , I am not saying he cannot coach) but he has had tremendously talented players and if anything has stood in the way of development or failed to get the best out of what players did. I mean did he really maximise Buddy Franklin? No imo.


He isn't Mark Neeld, but if say Ratten had the same talented over the journey he probably coaches over a decade too. Finals and big games are where coaches can make a difference and he doesn't do a lot. But clearly gets the basic nuts and bolts correct .

Yeah he has done his legacy more harm than good by staying in the job as long as he has.

Remember when there was a point where it was almost universally accepted that Horse was the second-best coach in the comp after Clarkson? If he got out then, around 2017/18, his reputation would've been a great coach who just couldn't quite get that dynasty he was after. No shame in that, probably leaves and has 16 other clubs wanting him and he goes to some rabble and makes them a contender and enhances his reputation even more a la Paul Roos.

Instead he's stayed, gone to the well a second time with a second generation of Swans and is having the same issues once again, squandered three minor premierships, lost two grand finals to sides outside the top four, and has a 20% record in grand finals. It's fine to stay on for 14 years, but unless you're winning flags, all you are really doing is compiling more and more evidence of your shortcomings.

 

[McGowan3]

Yeah he has done his legacy more harm than good by staying in the job as long as he has.

Remember when there was a point where it was almost universally accepted that Horse was the second-best coach in the comp after Clarkson? If he got out then, around 2017/18, his reputation would've been a great coach who just couldn't quite get that dynasty he was after. No shame in that, probably leaves and has 16 other clubs wanting him and he goes to some rabble and makes them a contender and enhances his reputation even more a la Paul Roos.

Instead he's stayed, gone to the well a second time with a second generation of Swans and is having the same issues once again, squandered three minor premierships, lost two grand finals to sides outside the top four, and has a 20% record in grand finals. It's fine to stay on for 14 years, but unless you're winning flags, all you are really doing is compiling more and more evidence of your shortcomings.

I'm starting to think more and more Horse is an average coach (which is still good , I am not saying he cannot coach) but he has had tremendously talented players and if anything has stood in the way of development or failed to get the best out of what players did. I mean did he really maximise Buddy Franklin? No imo.


He isn't Mark Neeld, but if say Ratten had the same talented over the journey he probably coaches over a decade too. Finals and big games are where coaches can make a difference and he doesn't do a lot. But clearly gets the basic nuts and bolts correct .

In his defence, I'm not sure that he has had tremendously talented players in relation to the other teams. It is arguable that he has over achieved and that the players have been found out in Grand finals. We have won some big finals against the odds eg v melbourne 2022 and Pies pf 2022 Have been a great admirer of his over the years. If he ends up going after next year, we better be extremely diligent choosing who replaces him IMO.

 

[The King!]

In his defence, I'm not sure that he has had tremendously talented players in relation to the other teams. It is arguable that he has over achieved and that the players have been found out in Grand finals. We have won some big finals against the odds eg v melbourne 2022 and Pies pf 2022 Have been a great admirer of his over the years. If he ends up going after next year, we better be extremely diligent choosing who replaces him IMO.

He has had a lot of high draft picks, admittedly not always a perfect measure. He has coached an enormous amount of All Australians, 200 gamers etc , we have been pretty spoiled for talent.

How was the Pies PF at home as the higher ranked team against the odds for instance?

If anything talent has saved him at times, Heeney went God mod in the GWS final this year otherwise he probably crashes out earlier than the grand final- cheaper for the fans.

I admire him as a footy man too and seems like a genuinely good guy, but overstayed his welcome .

I agree being diligent whenever a change comes 100%, maybe it is Cox but hope we run a good process. I also dont think we should hold onto Horse for decades because it could be worse (not that you are saying that)

 

[caesar88]

In his defence, I'm not sure that he has had tremendously talented players in relation to the other teams. It is arguable that he has over achieved and that the players have been found out in Grand finals. We have won some big finals against the odds eg v melbourne 2022 and Pies pf 2022 Have been a great admirer of his over the years. If he ends up going after next year, we better be extremely diligent choosing who replaces him IMO.

I think he has failed to maximise the potential of as many players as he's over-performed with.

 

[McGowan3]

I think he has failed to maximise the potential of as many players as he's over-performed with.

Maybe. Mills was great down back early but could have been a midfielder from day 1. Heeney started on a wing but has been mainly forward till now. I know I'm in the minority on this thread, but he has won half of all finals he's been in and we have been in, he has fast tracked our revival through 2019-2021 and got us to two GFs. Most other clubs only dream of this.

I'm tipping he'll hand over to Cox in 2026 but as a figurehead of the club, he would be a big loss.

 

[bedford]

I think he has failed to maximise the potential of as many players as he's over-performed with.

Roos reckons he's kept a few that are as tough as an easter egg

 

[caesar88]

Roos reckons he's kept a few that are as tough as an easter egg

Probably because they are a few of his favourites.

 

[bedford]

Probably because they are a few of his favourites.

He means soft

 

[GoTheSwannies]

Roos reckons he's kept a few that are as tough as an easter egg

I think this is what it all boils down to (no pun intended). I've said it before, but Horse has a preference for certain personality types. Unfortunately, the traits he favours arent characteristic of players who perform well in extreme circumstances / under adversity etc. If anything, those personality types tend to end up on the outer with Horse.

It's for that reason I think Horse isn't a high calibre coach. He's just a very good H&A coach that can get consistently good results over a sustained period. Just doesn't have that extra bit that would get us over the line.

 

[Cadsky]

Yeah, I'm still angry

Me too. I don't care how good we are next year, I'm not getting caught up in it at all. I've been burnt now and I don't think I can trust this team again until we have a new coach with new systems and strategies and ones that hold up on the last day and potentially turn a few players over, although that's less likely any time soon than sacking horse.