Discussion Saints part ways with recruiting manager after restructure

[gringo2011]

It was very much Finnis' MO to obfuscate his football responsibilities and Lethers was the perfect mule for that.

I still do and will always vehemently disagree that he made s**t moves regarding the list and footy dpt.
I think he probably just went for the best he could get at the time, which is still the clear policy.
Each appointment has been an upgrade on the previous and the only possible folly that comes to mind is losing Kingsly in 2018 which may or may not have been Kingsley's choice.

I see it as a steps and stairs rebuild of the footy dpt under an austerity budget.
Richo, Cox, Trout all out the door asap for Ratts, Rath, and Gags was a big upgrade. Not the best, but maybe the best he could do. Libba then moved on for Toce, Toce now for Dalrymple.

Cox, Rath, Walsh*, Misson
Trout, Gags, SOS
Libba, Toce, Dalrymple

Carroll, O'Shaughnessy, Batchlor have also been important in the background.

I think people forget just what a total basket case Lethers inherited. You couldn't just magically go from that to this in a single move.
Lethers cut out the rott and put a bandaid solution in place, also drafting Max which reset the timeline though they weren't stupid enough to advertise it this time while patients is what he preached to the supporter base.
He didn't want Ratts re-signed, Finnis and Bassat overruled. The list goes on.

Perfect no, but demonstrably progressive from day 1, till now. Steps and stairs.

His biggest misstep was the hard top up. Howard, Butts, Hill, Snags and Ryder didn't work out and cost us heavily at the draft table. Realistically it was a misread of where we are at which has always been considered the number one mistake a club can make. Either that or we were arse covering for messing up another rebuilt. Max was his one absolutely brilliant hit.

The basket case was the lack of direction and investment in the footy department. Until we cleaned up the backroom there was never going to be any real progress. This is the first time since Lyon left that I feel like we have everything in place to move ahead. Drafting good players to a shittily run club is just throwing away careers. Finnis and the board were obviously about paying down debt after the Seaford/Moorabin moves but austerity is like jumping into a pool with your arms tied in footy. You can't save your way to success in the AFL .

Yep, steps and stairs it is. We are now in a good place so I guess we needed to get lost in the desert to find ourselves.

 

[gringo2011]

Hannebery was a good idea that didn’t work out. If we didn’t have him, I can’t see us winning a final in 2020. Winning that final made it all worth it.

Anyway, no other players wanted to come to st Kilda. We offered insane money to a bunch of players and none wanted to come. Paying Hannebery just means players like Lonie, Gresham and Dunstan didn’t get larger contracts. No big deal

It was a bit of bullshit nepotism IMO. He was off the rails at Sydney and he wasn't a culture shifter. He probably trained well or something but so did Jack Newnes. Think he cost a second round pick or something which is still a ticket in a lottery that we threw away. Anyway he wasn't the dumbest thing we did in that period but he was one of a series of missteps.

 

[The Cobra]

If you start winning games, sponsorship and attendance take care of themselves. Definitely right on the boys club but not sure the AFL can do much but syphon us a bit more charity. It doesn't seem to get us better fixturing or stadium deals.

Not arguing but a slightly different perspective- it takes time to turn around the football Titanic we were with drafting youth and trading let alone replace the substandard football department we had . I’m not sure too many established players or elite coaches would find the beauty of Seaford an overly attractive proposition unlike Moorabbin is now. The financial situation was also pretty dire is my understanding.

The real risk is you go broke (or become a complete basket case) before the turnaround happens (if it happens at all as there are no guarantees). Look at the Kangaroos - had plenty of first round draft picks and stuffed most of them so badly they are now the recipient of one of the greatest talent handouts ever seen & in turn have compromised the draft. Who knows if the Saints would have been so lucky?

We were all frustrated at how ordinary on field we were but building the elite Moorabbin facility (build it & they will come), being back in our supporter heartland & becoming more financially viable have provided the building blocks for attracting Lyon et al and any thinking supporter would agree the on field future is brighter than it has been at any time since RTB left the building in 2011.

 

[ScrappyDo]

His biggest misstep was the hard top up. Howard, Butts, Hill, Snags and Ryder didn't work out and cost us heavily at the draft table. Realistically it was a misread of where we are at which has always been considered the number one mistake a club can make. Either that or we were arse covering for messing up another rebuilt. Max was his one absolutely brilliant hit.

The basket case was the lack of direction and investment in the footy department. Until we cleaned up the backroom there was never going to be any real progress. This is the first time since Lyon left that I feel like we have everything in place to move ahead. Drafting good players to a shittily run club is just throwing away careers. Finnis and the board were obviously about paying down debt after the Seaford/Moorabin moves but austerity is like jumping into a pool with your arms tied in footy. You can't save your way to success in the AFL .

Yep, steps and stairs it is. We are now in a good place so I guess we needed to get lost in the desert to find ourselves.

I don't think the supporter base could have stomached another rebuild anounced in 2018 which as it happens was supposed to be when the first rebuild was peaking.
They may well have overrated the list, or they may not have since Hill, Jones, Doogs, Butts and Snags all have plenty of footy left in them.
It might just be that you're not sufficiently patient, which is understandable.

 

[beside the seaside]

This is going to sound illogical and negative but that final probably sent us on the wrong path. We really didn't turn it around until we lucked our two academy kids and hit it out of the park with Nas. The set up we had was reactive and a went in several directions at once. The starkest difference with Lyon is the footy department look on a path that doesn't waver based off some hard to gauge result. Lyon could easily have topped up hard and gone for finals in 2024 but has stayed steadfast on his youth path. It will pay dividends even if it's not next year. We have a cohesive and obvious plan in place for the first time in decades. Probably more so than his last inning at the Saints.

Joey said the same thing about the win against Richmond in 2017. Led to us massively overrating ourselves.

 

[gringo2011]

Not arguing but a slightly different perspective- it takes time to turn around the football Titanic we were with drafting youth and trading let alone replace the substandard football department we had . I’m not sure too many established players or elite coaches would find the beauty of Seaford an overly attractive proposition unlike Moorabbin is now. The financial situation was also pretty dire is my understanding.

The real risk is you go broke (or become a complete basket case) before the turnaround happens (if it happens at all as there are no guarantees). Look at the Kangaroos - had plenty of first round draft picks and stuffed most of them so badly they are now the recipient of one of the greatest talent handouts ever seen & in turn have compromised the draft. Who knows if the Saints would have been so lucky?

We were all frustrated at how ordinary on field we were but building the elite Moorabbin facility (build it & they will come), being back in our supporter heartland & becoming more financially viable have provided the building blocks for attracting Lyon et al and any thinking supporter would agree the on field future is brighter than it has been at any time since RTB left the building in 2011.

We probably could have got the football department humming, played finals and then moved to Moorabin later but he did get it done. The players that all hated Moorabin were long gone by the time we moved.

The AFL does reward the badly run clubs despite what they say. We got plenty of money from them but were not quite terrible enough to get rewarded with on field help.

Any way glad he's gone despite being happy to credit him for his good points. His compassionate response to Robbie Muir was handled with respect, dignity and class.

 

[gringo2011]

Joey said the same thing about the win against Richmond in 2017. Led to us massively overrating ourselves.

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

His biggest misstep was the hard top up. Howard, Butts, Hill, Snags and Ryder didn't work out and cost us heavily at the draft table. Realistically it was a misread of where we are at which has always been considered the number one mistake a club can make. Either that or we were arse covering for messing up another rebuilt. Max was his one absolutely brilliant hit.

The basket case was the lack of direction and investment in the footy department. Until we cleaned up the backroom there was never going to be any real progress. This is the first time since Lyon left that I feel like we have everything in place to move ahead. Drafting good players to a shittily run club is just throwing away careers. Finnis and the board were obviously about paying down debt after the Seaford/Moorabin moves but austerity is like jumping into a pool with your arms tied in footy. You can't save your way to success in the AFL .

Yep, steps and stairs it is. We are now in a good place so I guess we needed to get lost in the desert to find ourselves.

Good description Gringo.

Agree t seems everything is now set up and we are on the stairs and climbing. Just hoping there are handrails!

 

[George]

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

That's loser talk, Gring. Why not us!?!

 

[St Neil]

They’re not going to announce his new destination before we do.

Why not wait to thank him until after it is announced by St Kilda? It’s unusual.

Maybe the media breaking the story compelled the Swans to confirm he was out the door. No longer a requirement on their part to wait and to keep it quiet. It was no longer a secret.

I assume his appointment hasn’t been officially announced by Saints yet in order to generate media coverage in the New Year when everything is quiet.

 

[St Neil]

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

Lyon is smart enough to understand that improvement isn’t necessarily linear. There is no guarantee we improve our position on the ladder in 2024.

Lyon is will also understand that his appointment as coach would have provided a sugar hit to the club. He has real presence based on his previous history with the club.

As supporters we need to continue to be patient and not just focus on the scoreboard, but also the development of our players and the team. That is the long game that will bring us success.

Easier said than done though. We all get emotional with the weekly results.

 

[littlecreatures]

If you start winning games, sponsorship and attendance take care of themselves. Definitely right on the boys club but not sure the AFL can do much but syphon us a bit more charity. It doesn't seem to get us better fixturing or stadium deals.

On another note, does anyone know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel to rectify the stadium (marvel) deal issues?


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[jwikked]

On another note, does anyone know if there is any light at the end of the tunnel to rectify the stadium (marvel) deal issues?


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Weren't they effectively solved when the AFL bought the stadium a few years ago? We just had 2 Covid interrupted years with little to no crowds that prevented us from making any money there. We should be all good moving forward

 

[littlecreatures]

Weren't they effectively solved when the AFL bought the stadium a few years ago? We just had 2 Covid interrupted years with little to no crowds that prevented us from making any money there. We should be all good moving forward

Correct me if I’m wrong, but with Marvel being owned by AFL, isn’t this a case of subsidised clubs handing money back to AFL for exorbitant operational costs at Marvel? In contrast to MCG which is a money jam due to AFL’s deal/cut with MCC going back to tenant clubs.

From memory, we were able to make just as much money for games at MCG this year (Essendon game and potentially GWS final) than previous games in Cairns/NQ which was messy…


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[stfan]

Max was his one absolutely brilliant hit.

What makes it an absolutely brilliant hit?

I mean Max is not a pick out of nowhere. He was always going to go thereabouts.

If one believes the gossip Toce preferred Connor Rozee, and Lethers overruled him.

Rozee has already won two All Australian Selections, and has been appointed the Port Adelaide Captain.

 

[The Cobra]

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

This!

RTB and the Football department clearly have a strategy & they are going to follow it. He has already talked about blooding youngsters & adding more quality from the draft but he still expects success. If we have a few ordinary patches people will be screaming for change but hopefully plenty are smart enough to understand player & team development isn’t linear.

Im more interested in where we are at the end of his 4 year term.

The guy clearly knows what it takes to be successful (4 Grand Finals isn’t a fluke and he is clearly burning to win one for this Club). Some fools reckon his game style is out date - he is a smart man - listen to him - he gets the current modern game - he has a strong defence mantra but listen to him talk about speed, run and carry & that is what we have drafted.

I know the players think he is quirky but they respect and fear him - good combination!

I really think this guy is our best chance to taste success - but I would hate to try & manage him!

 

[stfan]

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

Yes despite making finals with an injury ravaged season we have strongly gone after youth and younger players. The opposite of topping up.

A good crop of new kids with Henry 22y 4 m, Dow 24 y 2 m also added.

Only the PSD pick of Bonner was older, and at 26 y 9 m that is not old.

Billings 28 y 4 m and the younger Gresham 26 y 3 m both left, but swapping for Henry and Dow makes us younger with Dow being the type of midfield player we sorely lack.

 

[Parkysp]

Cost us coin that we could have used on players that actually.... weren't broken

And public embarrassment. Who among us didn't get shitcanned by oppo supporting mates making jokes about our club

A StKilda supporter getting s canned by his mates....that's just the burden we carry until we get RTB's 'Special Cup'.

For Hanners most of my mates were more sympathetic for the whole situation, for him and the club, which was way worse than hearing their usual crap.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

A StKilda supporter getting s canned by his mates....that's just the burden we carry until we get RTB's 'Special Cup'.

For Hanners most of my mates were more sympathetic for the whole situation, for him and the club, which was way worse than hearing their usual crap.

Ah an oldie but goodie

"Saints are my second team cos I feel sorry for them"

 

[stavro#4]

So how does the Dalrymple role fit with SOS (and Gubby)?

Sorry to be dumb but I’m a little confused (happens a bit) can someone please detail or diagram the roles and relationship between SOS, Gubby & Dalrymple?

ps a diagram simpler than that of the internet would be appreciated!

To be as brief as possible

A rough outline looks like:

SOS: manages the existing list (delistings and working with Ross on list requirements) and draft assets (picks) + Cap management ($$$$). Would be the primary go to person for club to club negotiations.

Gubby: job is to identify and bring in existing players from across the league. Will work with SOS with regards to cost of currency and cap. Will oversee the draft process but not run it

DALRYMPLE: will run the draft process as we know it. Will support Gubby with identifying and bringing across existing players. Will work with sos on overall vision I.e we have found X player we need pick Y can we do it?

So without drawing fancy circles. They will all overlap and work together


However Ross is their boss.

 

[Diehard Saint]

That's the beauty of Lyon. His results from 2023 haven't sent him off on a different path. I respect that ability to stay the course in the face of a desperate for success fan base that would probably be happy to take a sugar hit for a year or two after a long dry spell.

Maybe we’ll finally become the “juggernaut” ol Scotty boy predicted

 

[Premium]

This is going to sound illogical and negative but that final probably sent us on the wrong path. We really didn't turn it around until we lucked our two academy kids and hit it out of the park with Nas. The set up we had was reactive and a went in several directions at once. The starkest difference with Lyon is the footy department look on a path that doesn't waver based off some hard to gauge result. Lyon could easily have topped up hard and gone for finals in 2024 but has stayed steadfast on his youth path. It will pay dividends even if it's not next year. We have a cohesive and obvious plan in place for the first time in decades. Probably more so than his last inning at the Saints.

The Ratten years were just cull the list and rebuild , we had to turn the list around the players we had were not going to get us to where we wanted to be.
In my opinion Lyon has walked into a club with unlimited upside and all the players were mostly brought in under Rattens watch.
Lyon has been at the club one year and what he has done has benefited from the work done to the list prior to him arriving.
Lyon is by far the better coach but the recruitment team has done wonders to get our side where we are now.
I don't know who called the shots when recruiting but most of the calls have been good , of course there have been some blunders but in all we are going in the right direction.

Now it's all up to Lyon to get the best out of the squad , with most of our youth ready to show there best.

I don't want to here any excuses this year having a fit King , Steele , Marshall , Wilkie , Hill , Sinclair , Crouch and Owens , Milera , Windhager in there 3rd year with the likes of Henry and Dow only strengthening the squad again from last year.

I fully expect we should be fighting for a top 4 spot if they can stay on the park most of the year.

 

[saintmike65]

What makes it an absolutely brilliant hit?

I mean Max is not a pick out of nowhere. He was always going to go thereabouts.

If one believes the gossip Toc preferred Connor Rozee, and Lethers overruled him.

Rozee has already won two All Australian Selections, and has been appointed the Port Adelaide Captain.

Chris Liberatore was head recruiter then…he was keen on Rozee (understandably so).

 

[saintmike65]

This is going to sound illogical and negative but that final probably sent us on the wrong path. We really didn't turn it around until we lucked our two academy kids and hit it out of the park with Nas. The set up we had was reactive and a went in several directions at once. The starkest difference with Lyon is the footy department look on a path that doesn't waver based off some hard to gauge result. Lyon could easily have topped up hard and gone for finals in 2024 but has stayed steadfast on his youth path. It will pay dividends even if it's not next year. We have a cohesive and obvious plan in place for the first time in decades. Probably more so than his last inning at the Saints.

I agree we were fortunate with the 2 academy kids falling our way, however there’s no luck involved with NWM.
He was picked around the mark he was tipped to be selected, then it was the initiative of Enright to suggest he play at half back that propelled his reputation.

 

[BigMonty]

To quote Donald Rumsfeld
There are
1. known knowns...your own team list which is Coaching club culture and player development.

2. unknown knowns...exposed form of players from other teams but without knowledge of player interaction with coaches, culture.

3. Known unknowns how much we have to pay to get a player from another club to Saints.. Research $$$, Destination club...player buy in.

4. Unknown unknowns. The AFL draft. 18 year old kids from all over the country... requires Research $$$s to make best guess but it's a lottery that requires coaching club culture and player development to cover up the blemishes of poor drafting.

Saints went down the easier pathway of 2 and 3 and got Butler Crouch Hill Paddy Dougs Hannas, etc. The least risky process which in effect kept the status quo. We as a club misread our playing list capabilities.....not the first club to make that mistake.

The reason for 2 and 3 was because 1 and 4 did not deliver in the preceeding years. Drafting McCartin and 2013 Billings if we had got Petracca and easy to say Bont but say Salem or Koledjasni.

We also got Dunstan GOAT and DMac none of whom set the world on fire.

If we had of got Trac, and another A grade player we would be right up there contending....but we didn't.

So now we are back to 1 and 4 strategy.
RTB is sorting out 1 and we have probably done some of the best recruiting since 2000 with Kosi Rooey Dal BG etc.

Remember RTB took over a list that Thommo had instilled a leadership culture with 2 and 3 with Hamil and Fraser.

Synergies are so similar with RTB mark 2 again he has a fair list with seriously good young talent coming through.

The club has also recruited some pretty decent staff this time around therefore the foundations are in place he is up there in the top echelons of coaches and now it is up to fate player development and picking and choosing 2 and 3 to augment the young talent.

Pretty exciting times ahead 2024 and 2025 strap yourself in for another crack at the holy grail.

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