Coach Sam Mitchell's direction for the club and 2024 news

[Strapping Young Lad]

If anyone wants to have a listen about what the data is saying in regards to whether we have actually gotten worse this year have a listen to this from the 9:15 mark.

I know a few people have already touched on it, but the data is also showing that our results this year have been slightly better despite actually putting out a younger team and dealing with some injuries.




And here.

 

[TylerDurden]

Essendon have no forward line. They will drop massively. They got a 20yo Jones and no small forwards. They f#$cked

2MP goes Ok, plus they're relying on Francis shifting fwd.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Before we do a deep dive on Essendon, this is not the place for it.

 

[Brishawk]

Essendon have no forward line. They will drop massively. They got a 20yo Jones and no small forwards. They f#$cked

All the way to 10k!

 

[KermitJagger]

I genuinely think that people are talking out their arse when they slap a year on when a team should be experiencing success. The rise and fall of clubs is rarely predicted, and often unexpected. Carlton, St Kilda and up until recently Melbourne have regularly defied predictions of future success and other clubs like Sydney, Geelong, West Coast and Richmond have defied predictions of collapse.

Hawthorn's list is nowhere near bad enough to make a prediction with any certainty about us being bad. We have far too many established AA level players for that IMO. Saying that finals won't happen until 2024 is a tough one for me, because that's a failure - it would be a list management and planning failure to have a core of Breust, Gunston, Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara on the list without planning to challenge immediately.

Honestly I think that's just what Mitchell is doing, and I back it 100%.

 

[chopflop]

2MP goes Ok, plus they're relying on Francis shifting fwd.

They're talking up guelfi as a small forward option to replace Tippa. The cupboard is bare.

 

[chopflop]

Before we do a deep dive on Essendon, this is not the place for it.

My bad

 

[H00t]

I genuinely think that people are talking out their arse when they slap a year on when a team should be experiencing success. The rise and fall of clubs is rarely predicted, and often unexpected. Carlton, St Kilda and up until recently Melbourne have regularly defied predictions of future success and other clubs like Sydney, Geelong, West Coast and Richmond have defied predictions of collapse.

Hawthorn's list is nowhere near bad enough to make a prediction with any certainty about us being bad. We have far too many established AA level players for that IMO. Saying that finals won't happen until 2024 is a tough one for me, because that's a failure - it would be a list management and planning failure to have a core of Breust, Gunston, Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara on the list without planning to challenge immediately.

Honestly I think that's just what Mitchell is doing, and I back it 100%.

We did just lose a master coach because he went all in on that core in attempting to win a flag.

For most of our AA level players we’ve most likely seen the best of them. Only Sicily (coming back from a knee) and JOM (not sure he will ever get to AA level).

Our improvement will come from our younger players. To me that’s who we should be focussing on and with a new coach. That’s what our new era should be about. Can’t keep chasing our tail after the last 5 years of doing the same thing.

 

[Dewnior]

All the way to 10k!

Mods, someone is impersonating Brishawk. He never uses the winking emoji

 

[KermitJagger]

We did just lose a master coach because he went all in on that core in attempting to win a flag.

For most of our AA level players we’ve most likely seen the best of them. Only Sicily (coming back from a knee) and JOM (not sure he will ever get to AA level).

Our improvement will come from our younger players. To me that’s who we should be focussing on and with a new coach. That’s what our new era should be about. Can’t keep chasing our tail after the last 5 years of doing the same thing.

We lost a master coach who was underperforming with a team that by all rights should have been doing better.

You can't be single minded about development and say it's the kids or nothing, particularly with so many players in their late 20s that are not past their best as you've said, but should still be at their peak with 2 - 3 years left without expecting any measurable decline.

We have both, it doesn't help the development of the kids we have to be a worse team so why not continue to push to be the best we can. Whether it comes from the kids, game plan or the veterans - it doesn't matter - but it would be a list management failure to waste the peak years of good players just because you don't expect to be challenging for another 2 years.

 

[Mercy Seat]

it would be a list management and planning failure to have a core of Breust, Gunston, Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara on the list without planning to challenge immediately.

Honestly I think that's just what Mitchell is doing, and I back it 100%.

The list management and planning failure has already occurred and literally all involved in the strategy that got us here have been moved on. I don't think we've had that much of an underperforming list, if so, the credit to the previous coach and list manager should be for rebuilding the list in a short fraction of time - which clearly they aren't getting.

Sam himself has said he is taking a 3-5 year vision with this list. The fact that we seriously tried moving at least 3 of those players you mention in the hope to add more draft picks reinforces that.

I hope we win as many games as possible this year and who knows, with the right luck we could even make finals. But the reason we got stuck treading water is we didn't want to play the long game. I think Sam is now playing the long game and has all the support to do that.

 

[kazzooka]

I genuinely think that people are talking out their arse when they slap a year on when a team should be experiencing success. The rise and fall of clubs is rarely predicted, and often unexpected. Carlton, St Kilda and up until recently Melbourne have regularly defied predictions of future success and other clubs like Sydney, Geelong, West Coast and Richmond have defied predictions of collapse.

Hawthorn's list is nowhere near bad enough to make a prediction with any certainty about us being bad. We have far too many established AA level players for that IMO. Saying that finals won't happen until 2024 is a tough one for me, because that's a failure - it would be a list management and planning failure to have a core of Breust, Gunston, Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara on the list without planning to challenge immediately.

Honestly I think that's just what Mitchell is doing, and I back it 100%.

Also we were tipped to collapse and 2011 and 2012 were our last crack with those guys. Burgoyne, guerra and sewell too old etc.


I am confident we can make finals if we are playing to win every game. But i think Mitchell may be looking at development 1st and also game style. Under Clarkson even as a bottom 4 side playing premiers he wouldn't allow us to get thrashed (05 and 06 excluded). Sam i think would rather we keep attempting attacking ball movement than kick down the line to minimise turnover risk. We may also see Frost or Hartigan out even if dgb is losing his position or ward and Newcombe left in the midfield when Sheils could provide us more than a youngster.

But if all guys are fit and we do everything we can to win and play ugly and deny youngsters a chance to learn from failure we can make the 8.

I think we can still build a premiership side around Mitchell, Jaeger, wingard and Sicily. Remember Geelong, hawthorn and Richmond sides recently all featured core players 30+.

 

[H00t]

We lost a master coach who was underperforming with a team that by all rights should have been doing better.

You can't be single minded about development and say it's the kids or nothing, particularly with so many players in their late 20s that are not past their best as you've said, but should still be at their peak with 2 - 3 years left without expecting any measurable decline.

We have both, it doesn't help the development of the kids we have to be a worse team so why not continue to push to be the best we can. Whether it comes from the kids, game plan or the veterans - it doesn't matter - but it would be a list management failure to waste the peak years of good players just because you don't expect to be challenging for another 2 years.

I definitely agree our team was underperforming. Aside from north we were pretty much the worse team in the league from 2020 to Clarko was sacked.

When we were probably around 10th in talent. Which is where I’d have expected us to finish.

I feel our current older players are too good to be at the bottom of the ladder. But also a decent distance from the top teams and therefore genuinely being a threat in finals.

Add in that our list is paper thin from going the top up route from 2016 onwards. Which we are only now starting to address.

Our draftees will take time to come on. If the goal is to challenge in 2 years time we’d have to trade heavily. Which is what got us here in the first place.

For me the list management failure has already happened. And part of going with Mitchell was about resetting the focus for our list and attempting to building a list that can compete.

While it might mean some of our players definitely won’t taste premiership glory. I sincerely doubt those players would have tasted glory if we went all in on competing when trying that has already lead us to the bottom end of the ladder.

 

[CHUBBSS]

One

I definitely agree our team was underperforming. Aside from north we were pretty much the worse team in the league from 2020 to Clarko was sacked.

When we were probably around 10th in talent. Which is where I’d have expected us to finish.

I feel our current older players are too good to be at the bottom of the ladder. But also a decent distance from the top teams and therefore genuinely being a threat in finals.

Add in that our list is paper thin from going the top up route from 2016 onwards. Which we are only now starting to address.

Our draftees will take time to come on. If the goal is to challenge in 2 years time we’d have to trade heavily. Which is what got us here in the first place.

For me the list management failure has already happened. And part of going with Mitchell was about resetting the focus for our list and attempting to building a list that can compete.

While it might mean some of our players definitely won’t taste premiership glory. I sincerely doubt those players would have tasted glory if we went all in on competing when trying that has already lead us to the bottom end of the ladder.

of the main reasons I think we will
Go far better this year and make finals then last is those senior players now get the support from All the kids coming through with a much stronger fitness base and a really solid year of galvanising what is the new team - now throw in sic and Gunston and I am very bullish if they stay on the park.

It was the lack of support across the mids that really hurt us, but all seems to be changing

 

[KermitJagger]

The list management and planning failure has already occurred and literally all involved in the strategy that got us here have been moved on. I don't think we've had that much of an underperforming list, if so, the credit to the previous coach and list manager should be for rebuilding the list in a short fraction of time - which clearly they aren't getting.

Sam himself has said he is taking a 3-5 year vision with this list. The fact that we seriously tried moving at least 3 of those players you mention in the hope to add more draft picks reinforces that.

I hope we win as many games as possible this year and who knows, with the right luck we could even make finals. But the reason we got stuck treading water is we didn't want to play the long game. I think Sam is now playing the long game and has all the support to do that.

Buddy if we seriously tried to move them on they'd be gone. I doubt players who don't feel welcome would stay, because I know for sure that if my workplace made me feel like I was on the outer I'd be job hunting.

Also there is absolutely no way you can convince me that Sam Mitchell is playing a long game with the intention of staying mediocre. I don't care what he said about 3-5 years, coaches have to say these things to temper expectation.

 

[H00t]

One

of the main reasons I think we will
Go far better this year and make finals then last is those senior players now get the support from All the kids coming through with a much stronger fitness base and a really solid year of galvanising what is the new team - now throw in sic and Gunston and I am very bullish if they stay on the park.

It was the lack of support across the mids that really hurt us, but all seems to be changing

I think how our mids go this year will be very interesting. How much cohesion can Mitchell get going between our mids.

Our young mid depth looking a lot stronger than the last few years. But at the same time can our senior mids lift offensively and defensively enough to at least make us competitive in the middle.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

We did just lose a master coach because he went all in on that core in attempting to win a flag.

For most of our AA level players we’ve most likely seen the best of them. Only Sicily (coming back from a knee) and JOM (not sure he will ever get to AA level).

Our improvement will come from our younger players. To me that’s who we should be focussing on and with a new coach. That’s what our new era should be about. Can’t keep chasing our tail after the last 5 years of doing the same thing.

Our master coach may of believed his own hype just a little!

Investing in recycled players, before we had a core base of youth. Expecting his touch to turn the rejects into gold.

Should of suppliment our premiership players with more youth around them not rejects. Youth would of 100% been learning from the best.

I often wonder what a midfield of S. Mitchell, T.Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis and O'meara would of worked like, an achieved.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Sam Mitchell will be aiming for 8th position and it would be great experince for our youth to get a final or two under there belt.

I think Clarko lost his way at the end with his coaching.

I feel Mitchell has cleared the way and given the players a clear message of our direction and game plan.

Back to Clarko, a wonderful career. After so long in the top job suffered burn out and needed a rest and new direction. I fully expect to see him coaching AFL again in the future he is too good, to be lost to our game.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Western Bulldogs finished 14th in 2014, then 6th in 2015...and they didn't have half the topline 28yr olds that we do right now.

Footy is played 90% above the shoulders, and just like Richmond in 2017 if you get the minds right and they can execute a good gameplan anything is possible.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Buddy if we seriously tried to move them on they'd be gone. I doubt players who don't feel welcome would stay, because I know for sure that if my workplace made me feel like I was on the outer I'd be job hunting

Not necessarily. The Breust article clearly showed that you can respectfully try moving on a player and welcome them with open arms when it doesn’t happen. Basically all of our ITKs reported that we looked seriously at moving on at least 1-2 of those players, and for a number of reasons, including salary cap issues across the board and general player movement gridlock it didn’t happen.

Regardless, despite us doing it really respectfully with the players, if a contracted player is caught offside and is disgruntled it’s often the following season they start seeking out a new home.

I said nothing about an intention to stay mediocre, but as far as list management goes, I fully expect us to make decisions that serve us better in the long term than the short term. That doesn’t mean we won’t be doing everything we can to win every game.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

We're closer to our next flag than our last.

 

[chopflop]

Western Bulldogs finished 14th in 2014, then 6th in 2015...and they didn't have half the topline 28yr olds that we do right now.

Footy is played 90% above the shoulders, and just like Richmond in 2017 if you get the minds right and they can execute a good gameplan anything is possible.

Here was me thinking it was the number of round one draft picks on your list (the ones that you have drafted of course)

Silly me

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

We're closer to our next flag than our last.

Agree, though I think like that every year. I believe the team HAVE to genuinely believe that too. (So did Schwab, and look what that got him)

 

[Brishawk]

Here was me thinking it was the number of round one draft picks on your list (the ones that you have drafted of course)

Silly me

Gws doesn’t like this.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Western Bulldogs finished 14th in 2014, then 6th in 2015...and they didn't have half the topline 28yr olds that we do right now.

Footy is played 90% above the shoulders, and just like Richmond in 2017 if you get the minds right and they can execute a good gameplan anything is possible.

That's very true.

I honestly believe the game plan Clarko had the boys playing the last three years was so defensive and dour not one of us truely knows how good (or how bad) our list actually is.

We were basically playing for the equivalent of a nil all draw most weeks.

That must have been terribly mentally drowning in the boys and as you said SYL footy is 90% above the shoulders.

I am cautiously optimistic that we have enough talent on the list that if we get the players minds right and a good positive game plan finals aren't out of the question this year.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That's very true.

I honestly believe the game plan Clarko had the boys playing the last three years was so defensive and dour not one of us truely knows how good (or how bad) our list actually is.

We were basically playing for the equivalent of a nil all draw most weeks.

That must have been terribly mentally drowning in the boys and as you said SYL footy is 90% above the shoulders.

I am cautiously optimistic that we have enough talent on the list that if we get the players minds right and a good positive game plan finals aren't out of the question this year.

If anyone wasn’t sure of whether we were playing to our ability or not over the last 2-3 years, that really should’ve been answered when we took it up to the Lions, Swans, Dogs and Dees with a heap of our better players sitting in the stands.