Samantha Murphy Ballarat * Patrick Orren Stephenson Charged With Murder

[Kurve]

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The Murder of Rebecca Young - Ballarat

The Murder of Hannah McGuire - Ballarat * Lachie Young

17

Lachie Young

Age

25

Ht

189cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.5

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

220.3

3star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

3.5

2star

M

1.0

1star

T

2.0

3star

MG

210.0

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

219.6

4star

charged



Allegedly

 

[FrankGrimes]

That's not what I said or implied.
Read carefully:

The charge of murder itself is NOT evidence of anything. You are implying that it is.

We should assume nothing from the fact that he has been charged with murder.

There may or may not be evidence. We haven't seen any.

It is reasonable to assume there is some evidence, as police procedure dictates that charges be evidence based. We don't know what evidence they have, so we don't know how strong it is. And no, I don't feel entitled to or expect to see any evidence before they go to court.

But the murder charge is NOT evidence.

The may or may not be evidence???

Of course there is evidence, we don’t know how strong it is but police don’t charge without a strong chance they think they will get a guilty verdict.

 

[Unit45]

How do we know that an intercepted ph call over the last month has partly caught him out in revealing things that no one else would be privy to. While not totally conclusive with other pieces its could contribute to the evidence gathered.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

That's not what I said or implied.
Read carefully:

The charge of murder itself is NOT evidence of anything. You are implying that it is.

We should assume nothing from the fact that he has been charged with murder.

There may or may not be evidence. We haven't seen any.

It is reasonable to assume there is some evidence, as police procedure dictates that charges be evidence based. We don't know what evidence they have, so we don't know how strong it is. And no, I don't feel entitled to or expect to see any evidence before they go to court.

But the murder charge is NOT evidence.

No, you're implying that the charge of murder may be based on evidence but as they haven't revealed what it is, we should be skeptical about it. Should it be up to a bystander to decide if the charge is warranted if the evidence isn't revealed? Or should we let matters take their course and wait for all to become clear through the proper legal channels? Cases can be dismissed if strict legal protocols aren't followed to the letter, to protect the right of innocent until proven guilty.

The police also need to protect sources of information and not disclose their operational procedures.

 

[31550]

The may or may not be evidence???

Of course there is evidence, we don’t know how strong it is but police don’t charge without a strong chance they think they will get a guilty verdict.

Of MURDER specifically?
That's the part I have issues with.
As per article posted earlier, police frequently lay charges, then either drop or reduce them (for a variety of reasons).
No question they have followed procedure, and in their own opinion, they have evidence which supports a murder charge being laid.

I am sceptical that they have enough evidence at this time to secure a guilty of murder verdict. How can they, without a body? How can they, without a confession, DNA evidence, eye-witness testimony, CCTV, ...

I am sure they have plenty of circumstantial evidence connecting the offender to the crime. They can most likely place him at the crime scene, thereby proving opportunity. They may even have theories regarding motive and means. But I can't even imagine what direct evidence they might have which would prove deliberate intent to kill.

"Police don't charge without a strong chance" is purely subjective. They often don't know how strong their chance really is until they get to court. How strong is strong?

It is just naive to think that because someone has been charged with murder, they will ultimately be convicted of murder in 100% of cases. It does not happen that way.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Of MURDER specifically?
That's the part I have issues with.
As per article posted earlier, police frequently lay charges, then either drop or reduce them (for a variety of reasons).
No question they have followed procedure, and in their own opinion, they have evidence which supports a murder charge being laid.

I am sceptical that they have enough evidence at this time to secure a guilty of murder verdict. How can they, without a body? How can they, without a confession, DNA evidence, eye-witness testimony, CCTV, ...

I am sure they have plenty of circumstantial evidence connecting the offender to the crime. They can most likely place him at the crime scene, thereby proving opportunity. They may even have theories regarding motive and means. But I can't even imagine what direct evidence they might have which would prove deliberate intent to kill.

"Police don't charge without a strong chance" is purely subjective. They often don't know how strong their chance really is until they get to court. How strong is strong?

It is just naive to think that because someone has been charged with murder, they will ultimately be convicted of murder in 100% of cases. It does not happen that way.

You actually said police may not evidence, police work with the dpp you realise that, yes charges get reduced but they have enough evidence at this stage they think can secure a murder conviction. Of course they can without a body, it’s not 1970… we don’t know about dna, Cctv etc… just because it’s not released doesn’t mean it’s not there..
how many people charged with murder actually beat the charge? It’s like 5% or less so police don’t charge with strong evidence.

 

[31550]

You actually said police may not evidence, police work with the dpp you realise that, yes charges get reduced but they have enough evidence at this stage they think can secure a murder conviction. Of course they can without a body, it’s not 1970… we don’t know about dna, Cctv etc… just because it’s not released doesn’t mean it’s not there..
how many people charged with murder actually beat the charge? It’s like 5% or less so police don’t charge with strong evidence.

No, they do not necessarily "have enough evidence at this stage they think they can secure a murder conviction". They have not been through that process. The police informant is not placed to determine how likely a conviction is. The evidence needs to go the prosecuting team to make that determination. They have enough evidence at this stage in their opinion to justify a charge of murder. That is all.

Where are you getting the 5% from? Does it include people charged with murder where the charge is dropped or reduced?
Or are you only counting those cases which actually proceed to trial as a murder?

 

[thumbs_up]

No, they do not necessarily "have enough evidence at this stage they think they can secure a murder conviction". They have not been through that process. The police informant is not placed to determine how likely a conviction is. The evidence needs to go the prosecuting team to make that determination. They have enough evidence at this stage in their opinion to justify a charge of murder. That is all.

Where are you getting the 5% from? Does it include people charged with murder where the charge is dropped or reduced?
Or are you only counting those cases which actually proceed to trial as a murder?

The fact that at the press conference they again asked the public to come forward if they know anything, indicates they're not necessarily confident they have enough to get a conviction yet

 

[Flash of power]

Nonsense

based on what are you calling it nonsense. Murder charge is a very high bar, this is not manslaughter, culpable driving, death by dangerous driving etc, the legal definition of murder.



If the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused person had the intention to cause death or serious harm, they can be convicted of murder. Manslaughter, on the other hand, is a lesser offence and typically involves the unlawful killing of another person without malice aforethought.

 

[Unit45]

Has Tamanika ever represented anyone charged with murder before anyone know?

 

[Paul Kersey]

I'm fairly sure coke is also the drug of choice amongst lawyers

Sure is. Everywhere there is money it can be found.

 

[nut]

based on what are you calling it nonsense. Murder charge is a very high bar, this is not manslaughter, culpable driving, death by dangerous driving etc, the legal definition of murder.



If the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused person had the intention to cause death or serious harm, they can be convicted of murder. Manslaughter, on the other hand, is a lesser offence and typically involves the unlawful killing of another person without malice aforethought.

Putting her in the car whilst she is still alive after accidentally hitting her… then disposing the body is also murder….
We can’t disprove anything … that’s why it was nonsense.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Putting her in the car whilst she is still alive after accidentally hitting her… then disposing the body is also murder….
We can’t disprove anything … that’s why it was nonsense.

And could be a reason he hasn’t given up the body, as that would prove her death was not by sustained injuries from an accident, which is what his lawyer may argue whether it happened that way or not.

It’s why I think phone and watch data will be so important. If they can prove she had a heartbeat whilst he was moving her body, he is done.

 

[Unit45]

And could be a reason he hasn’t given up the body, as that would prove her death was not by sustained injuries from an accident, which is what his lawyer may argue whether it happened that way or not.

It’s why I think phone and watch data will be so important. If they can prove she had a heartbeat whilst he was moving her body, he is done.

In reference to the watch data, and this is not known but he might have one or had one and understand the workings of the data. Maybe removed it, but then under the influence that might not have occurred.

 

[Lepube]

The fact that at the press conference they again asked the public to come forward if they know anything, indicates they're not necessarily confident they have enough to get a conviction yet

I interpreted that as trying to get people to assist them with his movement leading up and after the disappearance of SM.

Perhaps to see where he was heading when he potentially discarded her body.

 

[Aussie Assault]

I’ve been puzzling over this too. And Com. Patton’s words ‘ we’re not looking for anyone else. We don’t believe he had an accomplice’ - for me does not rule out the fact that someone else may have been there and witnessed something - but perhaps not the murder.

That person may have dobbed him in to Police. It was stressed that ‘information from the public’, Pings, data, search results etc, all meshed together to point to the accused.

That person may have even been his girlfriend? I think the story goes that she took a video of him snorting cocaine that night ( ** I wish I had a recent photo of him, because that ‘partying’ photo does not look like him - too fat in face, hair too dark ..)

I’ve seen reports that they’re long term & very solid. She’s a Vet student with Charles Darwin. Uni would not have been back on 4th Feb. but I think would’ve been back last Wed when he was arrested ( maybe she can do a lot of study off campus)

But if she was with him that night - why didn’t they stay together ? Or did they ?

Why was he out & about at 8am, after a huge Saturday night out ?

Question for Ballarat residents - would a normal ( cop avoiding) track home from the Clubs he haunted that Sat night 3rd Feb. to where he was house sitting his girlfriend’s parents home in Scotsburn, go by Mt Clear ?

Was he a regular imbiber of coke ? If so, why did his Lawyer’s perjure himself in court by saying POS had No drug (or mental health) issues.
And if this the first time - why not use it as a defence …

If he was a regular user, did it impact his job ? ( I’d be concerned of the safety aspects of a cocaine user doing my electrical work - but I guess I could be ignorant of the fact. Apparently it’s rife in legal & medical fields !)


If it was a mate or his girlfriend who had to do the hardest job of all and speak to the police - and then try to carry on as normal while police compiled their evidence - I can’t imagine what it’s been like for them, and the pain they’ll be going through -and I applaud their courage.

Sorry for the long waffle team, my brain has been whirling all over the place !

That person may have dobbed him in to Police. It was stressed that ‘information from the public’, Pings, data, search results etc, all meshed together to point to the accused.

That person may have even been his girlfriend? I think the story goes that she took a video of him snorting cocaine that night ( ** I wish I had a recent photo of him, because that ‘partying’ photo does not look like him - too fat in face, hair too dark ..)

I’ve seen reports that they’re long term & very solid. She’s a Vet student with Charles Darwin. Uni would not have been back on 4th Feb. but I think would’ve been back last Wed when he was arrested ( maybe she can do a lot of study off campus)

But if she was with him that night - why didn’t they stay together ? Or did they ?

Why was he out & about at 8am, after a huge Saturday night out ?

Question for Ballarat residents - would a normal ( cop avoiding) track home from the Clubs he haunted that Sat night 3rd Feb. to where he was house sitting his girlfriend’s parents home in Scotsburn, go by Mt Clear ?

Was he a regular imbiber of coke ? If so, why did his Lawyer’s perjure himself in court by saying POS had No drug (or mental health) issues.
And if this the first time - why not use it as a defence …

If he was a regular user, did it impact his job ? ( I’d be concerned of the safety aspects of a cocaine user doing my electrical work - but I guess I could be ignorant of the fact. Apparently it’s rife in legal & medical fields !)


If it was a mate or his girlfriend who had to do the hardest job of all and speak to the police - and then try to carry on as normal while police compiled their evidence - I can’t imagine what it’s been like for them, and the pain they’ll be going through -and I applaud their courage.

Sorry for the long waffle team, my brain has been whirling all over the place !

His parents house was in Mt Clear, and from all reports he still spent a lot of time there. Fair chance if he’s been out on the town he’s crashed at his folks house as it’d be easier to get home to via Uber / taxi, than heading out to Scotsburn.

I can see the bender term being taken way out of context by the media. I don’t think if he was that far cooked he’d have had the state of mind to successfully cover something up at 8am the next morning with so many law enforcements experts working the case.

To answer your question, you could go from Mt Clear, through the bush and then out the back of Buninyong via the mountain to the Scotsburn house fairly easily. If he was on a dirt bike you wouldn’t even bat an eyelid in that bush area.

 

[Kurve]

The police have a couple of new investigative tools we're not allowed to know about yet. Some information we got through the Cleo Smith investigation but I'm not sure if that information was a bit of a red herring because they really don't want to tell us what it is. That information was software that can go back in time and plot movements by overlaying the data.

There's something like Israel's Pegasus spyware, software that can be installed remotely and which gives complete access to the target's phone or device, all of it, including text messages.

It wouldn't surprise me if they can listen in actually.

 

[Lepube]

Has Tamanika ever represented anyone charged with murder before anyone know?

From another source;

They believe Tamaninka was likely a “his parents called their local family Lawyer in shock” rep not his ongoing rep, he has no specialty and didn’t come out all blazing “my client defends he has done no wrong” and just dealt with low level administration with no comments.

They also mention that as of right now, POS has no legal representation for his court case on the 8th of August.

Tamaninka could be out of their depth or decided to just pull out due to the severity of the crime and lack of potential experience in it.

 

[31550]

The police have a couple of new investigative tools we're not allowed to know about yet. Some information we got through the Cleo Smith investigation but I'm not sure if that information was a bit of a red herring because they really don't want to tell us what it is. That information was software that can go back in time and plot movements by overlaying the data.

There's something like Israel's Pegasus spyware, software that can be installed remotely and which gives complete access to the target's phone or device, all of it, including text messages.

It wouldn't surprise me if they can listen in actually.

Wow. Does it involve a flux capacitor and a Delorean?

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

The fact that at the press conference they again asked the public to come forward if they know anything, indicates they're not necessarily confident they have enough to get a conviction yet

Their efforts are now focused on trying to find Samantha's body.

Of course, any other information/evidence implicating POS would also be welcome.

 

[Kurve]

Wow. Does it involve a flux capacitor and a Delorean?

You would know about it, it's been discussed if one of these new tools was used in the Tyrrell case.

 

[jason_recliner]

The police have a couple of new investigative tools we're not allowed to know about yet. Some information we got through the Cleo Smith investigation but I'm not sure if that information was a bit of a red herring because they really don't want to tell us what it is. That information was software that can go back in time and plot movements by overlaying the data.

There's something like Israel's Pegasus spyware, software that can be installed remotely and which gives complete access to the target's phone or device, all of it, including text messages.

It wouldn't surprise me if they can listen in actually.

I'm certain they can listen in. I was discussing Brisbane with a colleague the other day. Shortly after, a bunch of Brisbane content came up on my socials (I'm also currently researching/booking a holiday). If Alphabet can do that for Webjet and others, you know they set it up for LEA.

 

[Kurve]

I'm certain they can listen in. I was discussing Brisbane with a colleague the other day. Shortly after, a bunch of Brisbane content came up on my socials (I'm also currently researching/booking a holiday). If Alphabet can do that for Webjet and others, you know they set it up for LEA.

Yeh I had something happen when I was away working remote and I suspected listening in. I suppose the question might be, is it recording and how and where might that information be stored?

 

[Unit45]

Is text Dm must be going via the moon?

 

[Flash of power]

How do we know that an intercepted ph call over the last month has partly caught him out in revealing things that no one else would be privy to. While not totally conclusive with other pieces its could contribute to the evidence gathered.

This is often they way they catch criminals out and the reason the police hold back information from the public. If the accused mentions something that is not in the public domain - BINGO !

 

[Flash of power]

Putting her in the car whilst she is still alive after accidentally hitting her… then disposing the body is also murder….
We can’t disprove anything … that’s why it was nonsense.

but you are forgetting the fact that they only seized his car at or around the time of arrest, if it were the supposed murder weapon it would have been seized way before . They were watching him for two weeks before his arrest, they are not going to let a car sit there with DNA disappearing if it was of such significance. IMO