Scott Pendlebury - Standing in the game?

[Gone Critical]

Consistently impacting games of football.

That is what things like player ratings are trying to capture.

And Pendles has higher career avg than Dusty (whilst also doing it for much longer).


I am too young to have seen Leigh play.

But there are obvious things that point to his greatness

He acknowledged as league best play by players and media awards in full season.
8 BnFs (3 of which were in premiership years)
Won a Coleman for league goal kicker
Lead Hawthorn goal kicking 6 times
200+ brownlow votes

And then he had multiple seasons where he avg 25 disposals AND more than 3 goals per game - so trying to convert those to your player ratings / supercoach it would be off the charts.

From stats, Leigh had more disposals than Dusty but also kicked almost 600 more goals.

Matthews is the best player I have seen. Also can't agree with the idea some others have put up that his status went up after retirement. He was nominated as the greatest ever frequently while still playing.

His 1977 season was just off the charts good. He played mid but was such a goakicker also. No mid gets near him in that regard.

My best ever are
1. Matthews
2. Carey
3. Lockett
4. Hudson (without the 1972 ACL could have been GOAT)
5. Dunstall
.

 

[carlton_99]

Here would be my assessment using Fadge's ridiculous criteria. The ranking order is how I actually rate them overall regardless of their totals in this experiment. I removed leadership as a factor because at the end of the day us fans have absolutely no clue what any of these players are truly like behind the scenes. We aren't privy to that sort of insight though I'm sure all of them are fantastic leaders in their own right.

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For me Pendles is somewhere between 10-20 this century. It's very hard to split players of his ilk but he's certainly nowhere near Dusty, Danger, Gawn, Goodes etc for me.

GAJ, Judd and Buddy the clear top 3 with nobody close to them imo.

Glad to see Fyfe and Gawn rank highly in there. Injuries meant he didn't have the longevity of some of the others but when Fyfe was healthy he was something else. And like you said previously I think Gawn has probably now established himself as one of the best rucks of all time if not the best. The work he does around the ground in addition to stoppage work is simply ridiculous.

 

[carlton_99]

Something I value very highly in a player is not just longevity but consistency. I don't think this has really been taken into account with these metrics people are using. Yes, you can have a good year overall but it doesn't necessarily mean you are consistent game to game. These are the players I truly appreciate that bring their A game no matter if it's a Sunday afternoon game against 15th or a Preliminary Final matchup against a rival.

This is personally why I always seem to have the likes of a Martin lower than the Pendlebury types. For me Martin other than a couple of years (mainly 2017) drifted in and out of games and then really brought it for finals - which is why he is probably the best big game player I have seen. Pendlebury on the other hand doesn't have the same peak as a Martin but I can bank on him playing at a high level every game and is still doing it at 57 year olds. I feel like Fyfe and Dangerfield from the same generation also were more consistent than Martin during their careers especially in the home and away seasons.

No disrespect to Martin btw I just think it shows why these topics are so hard to discuss - because what everyone values as important (peak, longevity, consistency, finals performances etc) can vary significantly.

 

[Fadge]

That’s why I and most have Buddy #1

'Most' have GAJ at #1...

 

[Fadge]

Do you honestly think any player who played the majority of their career before 2000 would get a game in the AFL today?

Do you think Diesel would dominate like he did coming up against man mountains like Fyfe and Cripps in todays game?

AFL players are lightyears ahead of the players of yesteryear. So forgive me if I stand by my comments that those players reached a level only a handful ever have.

Not this ridiculous argument again...

You said only a handful of players 'ever' have reached the peak of Fyfe and Dusty (and had GAJ, Buddy and Judd at equal or higher peaks) - meaning that's your 'handful'.

What about (as another handful to start with):
Ablett Snr
Carey
Matthews
Lockett
Coleman

 

[Worm4]

Not this ridiculous argument again...

You said only a handful of players 'ever' have reached the peak of Fyfe and Dusty (and had GAJ, Buddy and Judd at equal or higher peaks) - meaning that's your 'handful'.

What about (as another handful to start with):
Ablett Snr
Carey
Matthews
Lockett
Coleman

Carey wouldn't last 5 minutes. AFL is just way too Woke for him these days

 

[bradfisher14]

3. Judd was a good leader, not a great leader. Look at how he left both teams after he departed.

And how were hawthorn after Hodge left? How will Collingwood be after Pendlebury retires?

Pendlebury's on field coaching is (with Hodge) as good as we've seen. Judd didn't do that, anywhere near to that extent.

I know that this is all inherently subjective, but you genuinely have no way of knowing if Judd coached while on the field. There’s also multiple ways to be a great leader, so I’m not sure why on field coaching is so highly valued here. Using this logic, you could try to argue that Nick Maxwell was a better leader than Chris Judd which we both know isn’t the case.

 

[Fadge]

And how were hawthorn after Hodge left?

They had won 4 flags in 8 years, and also lost the likes of Franklin, Mitchell, Lewis, etc.

How will Collingwood be after Pendlebury retires?

Time will tell on that on, unless you have a better crystal ball than me?

I know that this is all inherently subjective, but you genuinely have no way of knowing if Judd coached while on the field. There’s also multiple ways to be a great leader, so I’m not sure why on field coaching is so highly valued here. Using this logic, you could try to argue that Nick Maxwell was a better leader than Chris Judd which we both know isn’t the case.

We see enough vision and have access to enough anecdotal evidence nowadays (and have done for some time) to be able to assess the leadership capabilities of all the great players (and they are who we are talking about here).

As I said, there is enough anecdotal evidence that whilst being an amazing footballer, and therefore having the ability to carry his team on his back the way Voss, Buckley and Selwood did), he wasn't a great leader. Leadership is about respect, and I know Fev was a loose cannon, but do you reckon he would have behaved the way he did towards his captain on that fateful Brownlow night if his captain was Voss, or Selwood, or Hodge? I don't.

Maxwell, whilst having 10% of the talent Judd had, was indeed a superior leader (when you take the footballing ability out of it). He too had his challenges with the 'Rat Pack' - but we didnt see any personality clashes play out in the public forum - and he (with Malthouse) was able to galvanise that playing group to play some of the most dominant footy we have seen in the last two decades. He certainly wouldn't be rated as high as Pendlebury for leadership, but he'd be somewhere between he and Judd.

 

[bradfisher14]

They had won 4 flags in 8 years, and also lost the likes of Franklin, Mitchell, Lewis, etc.

Indeed, so I’m not sure why you’re trying to ding Judd for his leadership when every great leader leaves a void after them.

Time will tell on that on, unless you have a better crystal ball than me?

I certainly don’t, but I can imagine he will be sorely missed as most great leaders are.

We see enough vision and have access to enough anecdotal evidence nowadays (and have done for some time) to be able to assess the leadership capabilities of all the great players (and they are who we are talking about here).

This really isn’t true. We get fed carefully curated versions of them in the anecdotal evidence. And the only thing you can really ascertain from the vision is who is pointing and shouting. Just because someone points and shouts a lot during a game doesn’t make them a better or worse leader.

As I said, there is enough anecdotal evidence that whilst being an amazing footballer, and therefore having the ability to carry his team on his back the way Voss, Buckley and Selwood did), he wasn't a great leader. Leadership is about respect, and I know Fev was a loose cannon, but do you reckon he would have behaved the way he did towards his captain on that fateful Brownlow night if his captain was Voss, or Selwood, or Hodge? I don't.

The damage was done with Fev long before Judd got to Carlton. Surprised you would use this as evidence against Juddy. As I’m sure you’d be glad to point out in other threads, the culture at Carlton was horrendous. The only reason it has started to turn is because of the foundation set by Judd.

Maxwell, whilst having 10% of the talent Judd had, was indeed a superior leader (when you take the footballing ability out of it). He too had his challenges with the 'Rat Pack' - but we didnt see any personality clashes play out in the public forum - and he (with Malthouse) was able to galvanise that playing group to play some of the most dominant footy we have seen in the last two decades. He certainly wouldn't be rated as high as Pendlebury for leadership, but he'd be somewhere between he and Judd.

This is where you are going wrong. Your perception of leadership is far too narrow. In your mind, on field coaching = great leader. That is only a small part of game day leadership and an even smaller part of what being a leader of a club requires in the bigger picture.

Furthermore, you are giving credit to individuals for strong club cultures while also doing the club a disservice. Maxwell was no doubt a good leader and astute when it came to on field instruction, but the only reason he was able to be successful as captain was because of the culture established by Buckley/Malthouse. Without that culture in place who knows what would’ve became of that Collingwood era. If Judd and Maxwell switched places during that time we’d be having a very different discussion.

 

[Fadge]

Judd and Maxwell switched places during that time we’d be having a very different discussion.

You are hypothesising.

I'm assessing what actually happened, and using that to form my conclusions.

 

[Fadge]

The damage was done with Fev long before Judd got to Carlton. Surprised you would use this as evidence against Juddy.

Of course it's a relevant example to use. It points to respect, or lack of.

As I said, do you honestly believe Fev would have behaved similarly to Voss, or Selwood, or Hodge. No way.

 

[Fadge]

On Gawn - his 6 x AA's is indeed impressive, but I suspect much of this is a result of the dearth of other gun ruckman on the scene.

He had Grundy to compete with in the late 2010's, and other ruckman have popped up for a season here or there. This year he had De Koning emerging until he got injured, so his main competitors were Marshall and Cameron (hardly all-timers).

 

[carlton_99]

On Gawn - his 6 x AA's is indeed impressive, but I suspect much of this is a result of the dearth of other gun ruckman on the scene.

He had Grundy to compete with in the late 2010's, and other ruckman have popped up for a season here or there. This year he had De Koning emerging until he got injured, so

Gawn isn't impressive because of 6 AAs - he is impressive because the work he does at stoppages and then across the other two lines is about as complete as we have ever seen from a ruck.

 

[bradfisher14]

You are hypothesising.

I'm assessing what actually happened, and using that to form my conclusions.

hypothesis
/hʌɪˈpɒθɪsɪs/
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

No, I'd say we're both hypothesising given that neither of us has access to complete evidence.

Of course it's a relevant example to use. It points to respect, or lack of.

As I said, do you honestly believe Fev would have behaved similarly to Voss, or Selwood, or Hodge. No way.

Alright, even though I think it's a bit silly I'll play along.

In this scenario, is Fev being taken from Carlton to play under Voss/Selwood/Hodge at their respective clubs or are Voss/Selwood/Hodge being sent to captain Carlton?

In the first scenario, I think Fev would've behaved far better due to the better cultures at those clubs. In the second, I think that Voss/Selwood/Hodge would've struggled to have greater success than Judd as leaders of Carlton given the situation at the time.

 

[Fadge]

Gawn isn't impressive because of 6 AAs - he is impressive because the work he does at stoppages and then across the other two lines is about as complete as we have ever seen from a ruck.

My comment was in response to another poster who had argued the 'longevity at peak' for Gawn and Pendlebury should be similar as they both have 6 x AA's (despite my view that accolades shouldn't be considered).

Based on that, I absolutely agree with you.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Not this ridiculous argument again...

You said only a handful of players 'ever' have reached the peak of Fyfe and Dusty (and had GAJ, Buddy and Judd at equal or higher peaks) - meaning that's your 'handful'.

What about (as another handful to start with):
Ablett Snr
Carey
Matthews
Lockett
Coleman

I think my explanation was fairly clear about modern players vs the past.

You put peak Nat Fyfe back to the 80s/90s and he'd win the Brownlow every year he played.

 

[doppleganger]

Matthews is the best player I have seen. Also can't agree with the idea some others have put up that his status went up after retirement. He was nominated as the greatest ever frequently while still playing.

His 1977 season was just off the charts good. He played mid but was such a goakicker also. No mid gets near him in that regard.

My best ever are
1. Matthews
2. Carey
3. Lockett
4. Hudson (without the 1972 ACL could have been GOAT)
5. Dunstall
.

Agree with that.

For 21st century, only 2 players IMHO are fit to enter discussion re best ever - GAJ and Buddy.

After that have a group of forwards - Pav, TomaHawk, N.Roo, Jack, JK etc who can argue over who is next best

Rucks - think most would agree D.Cox and Gawn have separated themselves as the best two, but not sure how try and rate who is better out of Gawn or TomaHawk?

Mids - behind GAJ you have Judd, Danger, Bont, Dusty, Goodes and IMHO Pendles is definitely worthy of discussion and inclusion in that tier.

Many seem to love the big body and powerful mids the explosive burst from a pack (but then often a hacked kick forward) is more memorable than a guy selling candy and calmly getting an effective clearance.

And again, Pendles "peak is in the conversation" he has the AFLCA year, the monster ~ 100 vote season, the norm smith medal (when it matters) and for stats boffins, he has the avg of 20 for player ratings for a season and highest individual rating game.

Pendles almost downgraded for how consistently good he has been, he has finished Top20 in AFLCA award 10 times, and top 2 in club BnF 11 times...many sort of forget how great he was in his peak which was 2010-13 and instead have almost a decade of slightly less impactful Pendles that is what they remember.

 

[Fadge]

In this scenario, is Fev being taken from Carlton to play under Voss/Selwood/Hodge at their respective clubs or are Voss/Selwood/Hodge being sent to captain Carlton?

In the first scenario, I think Fev would've behaved far better due to the better cultures at those clubs. In the second, I think that Voss/Selwood/Hodge would've struggled to have greater success than Judd as leaders of Carlton given the situation at the time.

It's the latter.

And I disagree.

Refer to the anecdotal evidence about Selwood when he walked into Geelong at the start of 2007.

I agree that Fev was Fev, and he still would have been a loose cannon, but there's no way he's embarrassing and belittling those guys the same way he did Judd that night.

 

[Fadge]

I think my explanation was fairly clear about modern players vs the past.

You put peak Nat Fyfe back to the 80s/90s and he'd win the Brownlow every year he played.

Of course it was clear, and of course you're right.

But it's nonsense, as we can only compare greats against the other greats during the eras in which they played, given the varying levels of professionalism, sports science, coaching, etc.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Of course it was clear, and of course you're right.

But it's nonsense, as we can only compare greats against the other greats during the eras in which they played, given the varying levels of professionalism, sports science, coaching, etc.

Hence why I said only a handful of players have ever achieved a peak equivalent to those players.

Pendles being a considerable margin behind each.

 

[Fadge]

Correct. Hence why I said only a handful of players have ever achieved a peak equivalent to those players.

Pendles being a considerable margin behind each.

Comment on the first 5 I listed - Ablett Snr, Carey, Lockett, Hudson and Coleman.

Their peaks are inferior to the 5 you listed?

 

[bradfisher14]

It's the latter.

And I disagree.

You are welcome to do so. My only hope is that you broaden your perspective on leadership and grow to appreciate how good Judd was even though he was a different type of leader who was in a very difficult situation.

Refer to the anecdotal evidence about Selwood when he walked into Geelong at the start of 2007.

There's no doubting that Selwood was special, but he did walk into an environment with immense talent in the playing list, coach's box and at the executive level. As has been well documented, Judd walked into a club that was very different to 2007 Geelong. I would've loved to see the effect Juddy would've had given the same opportunity.

I agree that Fev was Fev, and he still would have been a loose cannon, but there's no way he's embarrassing and belittling those guys the same way he did Judd that night.

In the latter scenario, unlike Carlton which enabled Fev's poor behaviour for his entire career until they sacked him, there is no chance in hell that Brisbane/Hawthorn/Geelong would've allowed him to do street-talk at the Brownlow in the first place (which is what I assume you are referring to even though you haven't explicitly stated it). So really it's a bit of a moot point. He may have embarrassed and belittled his new captains behind closed doors, but due to the strength of the culture at the club, we would never have known. Fev may very well have done similar when he got to Brisbane, hence his untimely exit.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

It's the latter.

And I disagree.

Refer to the anecdotal evidence about Selwood when he walked into Geelong at the start of 2007.

I agree that Fev was Fev, and he still would have been a loose cannon, but there's no way he's embarrassing and belittling those guys the same way he did Judd that night.

Am I reading this right? You're marking down Judd's leadership vs Pendles because of the Fev pressure point fiasco on Brownlow night?

Under Pendles watch how many players got suspended or banned for doing stupid s***?

• Thomas and Keefe for drugs
• Stephenson betting on his own games
• Degoey bashing blokes all around the world each year
• Beams had bikies rocking up at training trying to collect debts off him in front of the playing group
• Had a players mum call up Neil Mitchell and complain that her son's career was ruined by the Pies rampant drug culture
• Sam Murray for drugs too
• The Heritier Lumumba scandal

Are we meant to mark down Pendles for being at the helm during these? Or do we recognize them as separate incidents and really having nothing to do with Pendles leadership. Just dumb players doing dumb crap... Ditto Fev.

 

[Fadge]

You are welcome to do so. My only hope is that you broaden your perspective on leadership and grow to appreciate how good Judd was even though he was a different type of leader who was in a very difficult situation.

There's no doubting that Selwood was special, but he did walk into an environment with immense talent in the playing list, coach's box and at the executive level. As has been well documented, Judd walked into a club that was very different to 2007 Geelong. I would've loved to see the effect Juddy would've had given the same opportunity.

In the latter scenario, unlike Carlton which enabled Fev's poor behaviour for his entire career until they sacked him, there is no chance in hell that Brisbane/Hawthorn/Geelong would've allowed him to do street-talk at the Brownlow in the first place (which is what I assume you are referring to even though you haven't explicitly stated it). So really it's a bit of a moot point. He may have embarrassed and belittled his new captains behind closed doors, but due to the strength of the culture at the club, we would never have known. Fev may very well have done similar when he got to Brisbane, hence his untimely exit.

All valid points, but again, I can only base my conclusions on what has actually transpired for the respective players throughout their careers, and can't second guess what might have happened if a different butterfly flapped its wings in a different location at a different time.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Comment on the first 5 I listed - Ablett Snr, Carey, Lockett, Hudson and Coleman.

Their peaks are inferior to the 5 you listed?

I just did... They'd all get their ass whooped by the best players in the AFL in 2024.

Half those blokes ran about 3km a game punching on in the goal square with 1 opponent for 90% of the match.